Talk:Epirotic cuisine

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On 8 December 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Epirotic cuisine to Greek Epirotic cuisine. The result of the discussion was not moved.

POV tag

@Super Dromaeosaurus: With all due respect, the reason you provided in your POV tag is invalid. Namely:

Only Greek cuisine is covered in an article about cuisine in a region between two countries

The lede says that this term pertains to the traditional Greek cuisine of the region of Epirus. Iaof2017 even changed the wikilink from Epirus to Epirus (region) (diff), which is an administrative region in northwestern Greece; something that you then changed to the historical region of Epirus (diff), and was then changed back by Deji Olajide1999, with an additional elaboration of Greek cuisine (diff). In reality, the term Epirotic cuisine is not so much a regional term, but a term that pertains to the population of Epirotes; thus the traditional Greek cuisine of Epirus isn't limited to just the administrative region of Epirus, but also relates to the Epirotic diaspora all over the world, and more importantly to the adjacent Greek minority of Albania. The latter is something that justifies the Epirus wikilink, and can be supported with the following source which focuses exclusively on the Greek-speaking Epirotes of Albania, here. The use of "Greek cuisine" in the lede should be enough in clarifying the term's meaning. Aside of all these, you added WP:OR in the article. I am not aware of an Albanian term Kuzhina epirote, nor did you provide any citations for it. Demetrios1993 (talk) 20:34, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I did not get pinged by this. Noting for the RM below. Also pinging Demetrios1993 since I left their message unanswered. Super Ψ Dro 11:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 12:25, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Epirotic cuisine → Greek Epirotic cuisine – Epirus is a region located both in Greece and Albania. It is also populated by the stateless Aromanians. I attempted in the past to expand the scope of this article to cover Albanian cuisine too but I was opposed. Thus, I am proposing this rename. To only treat Greek cuisine in an article about the whole region of Epirus is blatant POV, and it shouldn't be allowed. Note there's already an article following this practice, see Greek Macedonian cuisine. Super Ψ Dro 11:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose There is the Albanian cuisine for Albania and the Epirotic cuisine for the aforementioned Greek regional cuisine. I don't see any reason to name a cuisine as North Epirotic cuisine or Albanian Epirotic cuisine except if there is a literature for that. The Macedonian cuisine exists because the cuisine of North Macedonia is named as such, and to differentiate from it, the Greek Macedonian cuisine was named as such. Hence your argument is invalid or of ignorance. Best Othon I (talk) 12:33, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The existance of an Albanian Epirotic cuisine article is not required for this article to be moved to the proposed title. We don't name the article of Greek Macedonian cuisine as such directly because there's one known as Macedonian cuisine for North Macedonia. If the latter article didn't exist, the former would still be titled "Greek Macedonian" because that's the most appropiate option. The proposed title here allows this article to maintain its current scope that doesn't represent the multiethnic zone that is Epirus. The other option is to include other cuisines on this article. By the way, I don't see the term "Epirotic cuisine" being used much in English-language sources (0 results in Google Scholar and Google Books, and many results in regular Google are from Wikipedia or Wikipedia mirrors). It isn't common in literature. Super Ψ Dro 13:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would try cuisine of Epirus or Greek cuisine regions to find the Epirotic such as the Ionian and goes on. Epirus (region) is a region in Greece it has its own cuisine thats it. As for the Greek Macedonian cuisine, yes, it was named as such to avoid confusion with the Macedonian cuisine from North Macedonia. Epirotic cuisine is perfectly fine and does not produce any confusion. There is no other cuisine named as such. Best Othon I (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And so is Macedonia the name of a region in Greece, yet its cuisine article is not simply "Macedonian cuisine". Epirus, just like Macedonia, extends beyond Greece, and not all the cuisine proper of Epirus is Greek. Yet this article implies such thing. "There is no other cuisine named as such" indeed, then maybe we can take the other option and write about the Albanian and Aromanian cuisines of Epirus in this article. Super Ψ Dro 15:36, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, is "Epirotic" the correct adjetival form of Epirus? Other articles use "Epirote", see Epirote Greek, Epirote League and Epirote–Nicaean conflict (1257–1259). This is the only article in Wikipedia using "Epirotic" on its title, as well as three redirects. I also get more results on Google Scholar with Epirote [1] than with Epirotic [2]. Maybe a better title for this article would be Greek Epirote cuisine. Super Ψ Dro 15:42, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the cuisine of the Epirus region of Greece. It is not about any historical region. Epirotic is grammatically correct and proper English. Epirote is a demonym for a person but for me both are the same. I think that there is no more to discuss on this. If you would like to add info regarding the cuisine of the Vlachs of Epirus feel free, products from Metsovo are part of the Epirotic regional cuisine with proper denomination protection of origin etc. Othon I (talk) 16:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"This article is about the cuisine of the Epirus region of Greece" then why not rename this to "Greek Epirotic cuisine", to leave this clear? "It is not about any historical region" but the title is ambiguous, as Epirus is a region also in Albania. I fail to see any arguments that could oppose my proposal. Including the information on the Aromanians on this article solves the problem only partly, as the Albanians are still left out. Super Ψ Dro 16:58, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"as Epirus is a region also in Albania" I don't think so. There is no official region in Albania called Epirus. Historically some parts may be considered to have been part of Epirus, but that's it. There is no Epirus region in Albania and the Albanians prefer to call the southern parts of Albania as Southern Albania instead. Only Greece has a region still called Epirus and the article is about the cuisine there. Simple as that. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 17:23, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter if Albania has officially any region called Epirus. Bulgaria does not have any region called Northern Thrace, and the same is the situation with Turkey and Eastern Thrace. Yet we have articles on these regions, and trying to pass an article treating only Bulgarian/Greek/Turkish topics as "Thracian" would have no success on Wikipedia. Besides, we have sources stating that Epirus extends into Albania [3]. Super Ψ Dro 19:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move Per Silent R. and Othon. This is a POV move request. It simply tries to suppress the fact that Epirus is a historically Greek region. Dr. K. 18:31, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Emotionally charged accusations won't lead us anywhere. Whether Epirus is a historically Greek region or not (which indeed used to be, ethnically speaking) does not matter as the title must be based on the present situation of Epirus, which is not exclusively Greek anymore (again, ethnically speaking). Super Ψ Dro 19:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any sources confirming other uses of the term "Epirotic cuisine"? Because, correct me if I am wrong, but the Google results show that there is just the Epirote cuisine as covered by the present article, not "Albanian Epirote cuisine" nor "Roma Epirote cuisine" or whatever that would otherwise justify a move request. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:18, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, I haven't been able to, but I can still provide sources showing how Epirus is considered to be partially in Albania, and to only treat Greek cuisine in the article of the cuisine of a region that isn't only ethnic Greek is POV. As it might be obvious already from my comments above, I want this article to either have a different title or to include information about other ethnic groups in Epirus. One is enough for me. I will also note that the article on Greek Macedonian cuisine already mentions how other ethnicities live in Greek Macedonia, although this is not further developed. We could start reaching consensus using a similar procedure. Super Ψ Dro 13:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: @Super Dromaeosaurus: You should nominate this for deletion because there are no sources which discuss a distinct "Epirotic cuisine". And it'll get deleted because it doesn't exist.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a better look around? Maybe not books, but the web. [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] and many more. I am sure this is not hard to see for yourself. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as redundant. "Epirus" is never used in an Albanian context (cuisine from southern Albania is simply southern Albanian cuisine, not "Epirote Albanian cuisine"), so "Greek Epirotic cuisine" is redundant. Sources for "Epirote cuisine", "cuisine of Epirus" refer to the Greek cuisine of Epirus for that reason. The suggestion that the article be deleted "because it doesn't exist" is laughable, because it does exist [9] [10]. Good luck with that. Khirurg (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At this point I am repeating myself, but I insist, Epirus is also in Albania, and is also populated by non-ethnic Greeks. If Bulgarians refer to the cuisine in Northern Thrace as "Southern Bulgarian" and Turks refer to the cuisine in Eastern Thrace as "European Turkish" (note that these are only examples), that wouldn't allow the Greeks to call the cuisine on their part of Thrace as "Thracian cuisine" on Wikipedia. Super Ψ Dro 13:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but we are not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Wikipedia relies on sources, not on editorial opinions. Had there been other uses of the term "Epirotic cuisine" published in sources, then sure, I wouldn't mind supporting the move request. Right now, as it stands, this request goes against both the sources and the facts. To not mention that the current title has no need for further clarity considering that the term "Epirotic cuisine" lacks any other uses that would cause semiological confusion. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.