Talk:Expedition of Hamza ibn Abd al-Muttalib

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Lies of Misconceptions2

I have removed an entire section called "Islamic primary sources" from this article. It contained two quotes attributed to Muhammad, that are not linked to this expedition in any way:

• Removal of 1st quote here.
• Removal of 2nd quote here.

@Misconceptions2: These are serious misattributions and outright false claims. If you are still spreading your false information through the encyclopedia, and still don't apparently even think you're doing anything wrong, then I think it's time for a community ban. Al-Andalusi (talk) 02:44, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

One of the purpose of intercepting caravans was to plunder carvans. Thats why in description section it says "The raid was ordered by Muhammad seven to nine months after the Hijra. It was led by Hamza ibn 'Abdul-Muttalib (Muhammad's uncle) and comprising 30 to 40 men with a definite task of intercepting a caravan that belonged to Quraish." Why should the purposes of intercepting caravans not be mentioned? The purpose of intercepting caravans was to plunder them in these Caravan raids. Ok if this quote is not related to these early caravan raids what is it related to.

This is first source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expedition_of_Hamza_ibn_%27Abdul-Muttalib&diff=711143556&oldid=711125910

This is second source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Expedition_of_Hamza_ibn_%27Abdul-Muttalib&diff=711143556&oldid=711125910

Your order is wrong. The first source i gave above is definitely related to these caravan raids. The second source says the same thing and was added to back up the first source. But It seems a mistake on my part, as it seems quote in second source is for a different caravan raid in the battle of badr. So I must have just searched the quote on google books. Found it, and added it as a backup source because it says almost exactly the same thing. Not knowing that muhammad seems to have made that quote on 2 different occasions.

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

@Misconceptions2: The first quote (Ibn Hisham) is with regards to a raid on Abu Sufyan's caravan. The second quote (Al-Waqidi) was said at Badr. Both quotes have absolutely no relationship to this expedition which was against Abu Jahl (which some sources state there was a caravan involved, others do not even mention a caravan). You are a liar. Al-Andalusi (talk) 03:54, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

The first source is under the heading "Permission to Plunder", not under the first expedition or second or any expedition;. Immediately after this section is the first expedition --Misconceptions2 (talk) 07:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

This is what the first reference states on p.95:

"This was the occasion when the first booty was taken by the Muslims, when the first prisoners were taken by the Muslims and when the first man was slain by the Muslims. It was eighteen months since the Emigrants had arrived in Medina. Soon the apostle of Allah heard that Abu Sufyan - whom he had missed at al-Ushayra - was returning from Syria with a large caravan of merchandise, accompanied by thirty or forty men. Then he addressed the Believers, saying: 'Go forth against this caravan; it may be that Allah will grant you plunder.'".

There is no way on earth anyone would mistake this quote for this expedition. It is clear that you had the intention of distorting facts and really thought you'd get away with it. Al-Andalusi (talk) 16:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

I wrote: "It is mentioned in Ibn Hisham and Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad from the 7th century), that for these caravan raids ", this quote is giving permission to plunder in the caravan raids in general. I did not say it is for the first or second or third expedition as I already mentioned above. I am generalising all the caravan raids and this happens to be a caravan raid. Before this quote it says "When Allah made plunder permissible..." (page 95) that is why I wrote "Muhammad gave permission to plunder" and used this quote. After this quote it mentions the first successful expedition. What is wrong with that? Is this quote not giving permission to plunder? --Misconceptions2 (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

"I am generalising all the caravan raids and this happens to be a caravan raid". Are you stupid or what? This is a textbook example of WP:OR. How many times do we have to tell you that. Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Removal of data

In Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Raul Allah it states:

When Allah made plunder permissible He allowed four parts to those who had won it, and one part to Himself and to His apostle, exactly as Abdullah had done with the captured caravan.

This was the occasion when the first booty was taken by the Muslims, when the first prisoners were taken by the Muslims and when the first man was slain by the Muslims. It was eighteen months since the Emigrants had arrived in Medina .

Soon the apostle of Allah heard that Abu Sufyan ‑ whom he had missed at al‑Ushayra ‑ was returning from Syria with a large caravan of merchandise, accompanied by thirty or forty men. Then he addressed the Believers, saying: 'Go forth against this caravan; it may be that Allah will grant you plunder.' The people soon assembled, though some were fearful and others hesitated because they had not thought the apostle would really go to war.

This is page 95. Therefore I feel the following lines was justified which al-andalusi removed:

It is mentioned in Ibn Hisham and Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad from the 7th century), that for these caravan raids Muhammad gave permission to "plunder" the caravans of theirs enemies and seize their goods and property(s) and said: "Go forth against this caravan; it may be that Allah will grant you plunder"

I am requesting a third opinion on this. I never mentioned this quote is related to any raid. I specially mentioned it in regards to "Caravan raids" as a whole --Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

--Misconceptions2 (talk) 21:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

First, I advise to learn how to read a book. Later, read WP:OR, and then WP:SYNTH. If this is too much for your brain to handle, then don't bother. I really suggest you go back to wikiislam.net and edit there. I'm sure your like-minded buddies over there will appreciate your talents. Al-Andalusi (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

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