Talk:Gal district

Why do you think that this site is owned by certain Bagapsh? Alæxis_¿question? 09:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't much care about the owner, but I'm afraid you will have to prove the credibility of this obscure Turkey-based website and the authenticity of the "historian" Nuri Bagapsh. Anyway, I rewrote the history section in a humble hope that it won't be uglified with your favorite {fact} tags because there are not many sources available in English and those in Russian have either pro-Abkhaz or pro-Georgian bias. I tried my best to reconstruct a more or less objective version of the district's history. Kober^Talk 10:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for expanding the sections. Here's the couple of questions I've got after reading it:

“ The Orthodox Christian population of Samurzakano remained relatively unaffected though. The decline in Abkhaz population left Mingrelian a dominant culture in the area ”

That doesn't seem logical, does it? Why was this decline happening then? Alæxis_¿question? 10:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Also the decline of Abkhaz in 1926-1939 is left unexplained. There was no muhajirism in this period for sure. How do you (or Georgian historians) explain this? Alæxis_¿question? 10:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhajirism affected only the Muslim minority. The passage specifically mentions that those unaffacted were Orthodox Christians. Furthemore, many Muslims were pursuaded by their Christian neighbors and relatives to reconvert into Christianity. Thus, those who were left in Samurzakano were almost exclusively Christian. At that time, the Georgian cultural infuence was most pronounced in Christian areas. This changed, to some degree, during Alexander III's chauvinistic policy when Georgian schools were closed and Abkhaz were encouraged to switch from Georgian into Russian (as their second language). At the same time, Georgian priests were removed from Abkhazia and replaced with Russians.

Yes, I understand this. You wrote that The decline in Abkhaz population left Mingrelian a dominant culture in the area. This decline cannot be explained by muhajirism as Samurzakan was almost exclusively Orthodox. So what were the reasons behind it? Alæxis_¿question? 11:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Err... not exactly so. Samurzakano became almost exclusively Orthodox after muhajirism. Muslims, albeit in minority, still formed a sizeable community in Samurzakano's NE corner on the borders with Abkhazia proper (Bzyb Abkhazia) and Tsebelda (parts of the present-day Ochamchire and de facto Tkvarcheli districts). A high rate of intermarriages coupled with muhajirim and emigration of Mingrelian peasants into the marchlands along the Enguri contributed to the decline of the Abkhaz population. I think all of these factors are mentioned in the article.--Kober^Talk 11:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

As for the 1930s, there were several reasons for the decline in ethnic Abkhaz population: 1. much higher birth rate among Georgians; 2. emigration of Abkhaz into the predominantly ethnic Abkhaz areas into central and north Abkhazia; 3. rapid urbanization of Abkhazia's coastline; 4. recruitment of more experienced Georgian specialists and workers into the growing agricultural sector in Gali (this is the favorite version of modern Abkhaz historians but is heavily exaggerated, needless to say); 5. you might be surprised, but the Gali Abkhaz who were more proficient in Georgian and more adaptive to the Georgian environment, left for Tbilisi, Kutaisi and Rustavi to work there as party activist as well as industry workers.--Kober^Talk 10:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

#4 cannot account for the absolute decline of Abkhaz in Gali district.

Regarding #3 and #5 the Georgians were no less likely to migrate to Tbilisi, Kutaisi, Rustavi, Ochamchira, Sukhumi etc to work there. However the Georgian population didn't decline - quite the opposite, it rose significantly.

#1 is rather surprising for me. I've seen the data for a later period for Abkhazia as a whole and the picture was the opposite. This factor also cannot account for absolute decline - you can't expect me to believe in negative growth in rural Abkhazia in 20s-30s. Alæxis_¿question? 11:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Neither of these factors, taken separately, led to the decline, but together they did. As for the #1, this is the only solid reason documented by numerous sources. So I don't really understand your surprise. And we are not talking here about the recent data, but about the 1930s demographic developments.--Kober^Talk 12:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, the version that the current population of Gali district are largely assimilated Abkhaz is quite popular now in Abkhazian sources and thus deserves to be in the article along with the Georgian version. Alæxis_¿question? 11:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, this is not only a Georgian version. Second, Wikipedia is not a collection of the "popular" Romantic Nationalistic myths. There are many idiotic and pseudoscholarly versions about the Abkhaz in Georgia but I never try to push them here. And how can you explain the existance of Abkhaz families surnamed Tsereteli, Gegechkori, Anchabadze, etc? Are they Georgians assimilated into Abkhaz or Abkhazians assimilated into Georgians and then reassimilated into Abkhaz? Ethnogenesis is a very complex process and there is no need to oversimplify these things for the sake of political propaganda. --Kober^Talk 11:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

So do you rule out the possibility that there was considerable number of people in Gali district that identified themselves as Abkhaz and who (or whose descendants) later were counted as Georgians and switched to Georgian language over time? Or do you oppose calling this process assimilation? Alæxis_¿question? 11:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting kinda tired of this. There are quite "popular" theories suggested by some Turkish pseudoscholars who claim that the Georgian population of Turkey (historical Klarjeti, Lower Adjara and Shavsheti) are indigenous Turkic people assimiliated into Georgians. Such theories are encouraged by the ruling elite to promote Turkish identity among the non-Turkish minority (see "South Kipchakya", Chveneburi#Group Identity). The Abkhaz propaganda version so cherished by you serves the same purpose. Please find the academic sources supporting those "popular" theories. Then I will soon come back with a dozen or so of similar "popular" counter-theories propagated by some in Georgia.--Kober^Talk 11:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Does this amount to the negative answer to the first question? Anyway what I propose is to say that this decline (1926-1939) is explained like this by Abkhaz and like that by Georgians. Alæxis_¿question? 15:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Why this urge to infest the article with the nationalist theories and ethnic insults? I will never agree to the inclusion of these "popular" theories unless appropriate scholarly sources are provided. The article, as it is now, is strongly based upon facts and there is no need to saturate it with Abkhaz and/or Georgian myths. Your political agenda prevents you from understanding me and I don't know how else to explain you anything. So, I see no point in being locked in this endless discussion. If you are going to convert this article into an ethnic slur, go ahead and kiss any cooperation goodbye.--Kober^Talk 17:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't try to blackmail me. Here's the quote from the book "Georgians and Abkhazians. The Search for a Peace Settlement" (specifically from the chapter "Geographical Background to a Settlement of the Conflict in Abkhazia" by Revaz Gachechiladze):

“ Of course, the Abkhaz also were victims of totalitarianism, particularly in the 1940s and at the beginning of the 1950s, when the total lawlessness of the Soviet authorities in relation to entire nations or subethnic groups (deportation of some North Caucasian peoples, Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, Meskhetian Muslims, Pontic Greeks, and so on) affected the Abkhaz as well, who were subjected to certain attempts to assimilate them to the Georgians. I wish to express my abhorrence at all this, so that there are no misunderstandings. The historical memory of such events is damaging to mutual understanding among peoples. ”

Alæxis_¿question? 17:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to blackmail you. Please don't make false accusations. Gachechiladze writes about the "certain attempts of assimilation". This does not mean that the Georgians of Gali are descendants of the assimilated Abkhaz. Try to note a difference, OK? A decade or two, even under Stalin, is not sufficient for the assimilation of the enitire group. --Kober^Talk 18:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I do not think that all the Georgians of Gali are descendants of the assimilated Abkhaz.

Yes, the citation is about all the Abkhaz but there's no reason to believe that the Abkhaz of Gali district were spared of this (the census numbers suggest the opposite). Finally no claim is made about the connexion of the general assimilation and the decrease in the district's population. Alæxis_¿question? 01:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

New changes

I've removed 1944-1953 because the problems started much earlier (Lakoba's death happened in 1936, alphabet was changed in 1938 etc). Alæxis_¿question? 06:15, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Lakoba's death is shrouded in mystery and is not directly related to Gali. Neither it was an ethnic issue, but rather an inter-clan controversy among the Bolshevik elite. As for the alphabet change, it is completely out of place here. By that logic, adopting the Cyrillic script meant Russification. Furthermore, the Abkhaz language is much closer to Georgian than to Russian and the Georgian alphabet was pretty suitable for it. I have read somewhere an article by the Italian linguist about this issue, but cannot find it.

I've mentioned Lakoba's death (at the talk) because it made possible the further process, it itself wasn't an attempt to assimilate Abklhaz, obviously. I don't know how the Abkhaz language was written in Georgian script so I don't have the opinion about which script is more suitable. What do you mean by the proximity of Abkhaz and Georgian - phonetics or something else? Alæxis_¿question? 06:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not really into linguistics, but afaik the two languages share some morphological and phonetical features. I don't really believe that they are related genetically, but centuries of cohabitation and contacts with other languages had their impact. The Typology of Subordination in Georgian and Abkhaz by G. B. Hewitt is a good comperative study of these languages (this is a pure linguistic book written early in the 1980s and relatively immune to Hewitt's infamous political bias).--Kober^Talk 07:01, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Imho the similarities are rather limited. Both of them use agglutination but so does Turkish or Hungarian... Abkhaz lacks cases altogether, unlike Georgian. I suppose that sound system is the most important factor to assess the suitability of the script. The only feature of Georgian script that could be useful for Abkhaz are ejective consonants. On the other hand Abkhaz has palatalised sounds that are present in Russian but not in Georgian :). All these are just my speculations, of course. I'll try to find that book of Hewitt's. I also wonder what bias are you writing about )) Alæxis_¿question? 07:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Huh! You seem to be much more knowledgable in linguistics, so I'm out of game.:) As for Hewitt, you once cited him at Talk:Abkhazia#Demographics III. He is a professional Kartvelologist, but extremely pro-Abkhaz (I mean not only pro-Abkhaz, but ANTI-Georgian). He published a series of articles denouncing Georgians almost as a fascist people and his latter-day works, even about linguistics, are heavily politicized. This seriously undermined his credibility among the Western scholars of Caucasia. Btw, he is fluent in Georgian, and atteneded the Tbilisi State University when he studied the Caucasian languages in the 1960s or 1970s. He is married to an Abkhaz woman (I don't know how influential she truly is though:)). And Ardzinba appointed him as his "honorary consul" to London.--Kober^Talk 07:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

My last sentence was supposed to be ironic. I know who is Mr. Hewitt)). Btw it was not me but sephia karta who cited Hewitt's book. We probably were even checkusered by MariusM although I'm not 100% sure about it )) Alæxis_¿question? 07:41, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

If you are interested in the Caucasian languages, you might consider starting an article about Prof. Georgi Klimov when/if you have time and interest. I failed to find his biography on the net. --Kober^Talk 07:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I have just found ru:Климов, Георгий Андреевич. I'll translate it. --Kober^Talk 07:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, your version somewhat distorts the chronological order because the next paragraph begins with the sentence about the post-revolution events (1917). Please note that I'm not assuming a bad faith of you, but I think the current order is OK, imo. --Kober^Talk 06:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Information about ethno demografical history of Abkhaz regions inc. Samurzakan

Even the author belongs to one of the "involving sides" the information is interesting enough. For those who can read in Russian http://www.viu-online.ru/science/publ/bulleten20/page5.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Segnor Bugatti (talk • contribs) 17:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)