Talk:Gender differences in suicide

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Diagrams[edit]

Can somebody do something about the diagrams that show suicide rates in the United States? They should probably be placed under the global suicide rate diagrams, to make the text wider.

Gender vs. Sex[edit]

Technically, this article should be called Sex and Suicide, as gender is different than sex. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Watersoftheoasis (talkcontribs) 01:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I think "Sex and suicide" would definitely give the wrong idea about what this article is about... — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 09:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I think a more useful change would be to include information about transgendered persons and suicide. LadyofShalott 01:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
It is true that gender is different from sex, but gender is made up of the social roles and expectations associated with being a certain sex, and that is what this article is tying to suicide rates. The article does not assert that men are genetically more likely to commit suicide and therefore it does not make sense to title it Sex differences in suicide. I think the title should be changed back. Weatherby551 (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Weatherby551. Sex differences in suicide implies that there is a biological basis for men committing suicide more frequently than women. The scholarly literature I have found does not indicate that this is the case. The suicide gap in the western world is based primarily around social constructions of gender. Now that the page has been edited to draw a distinction between gender and sex, I think that the title should be changed back. CoeA (talk) 16:42, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I have changed the name of the page from "Sex differences in suicide" to "Gender differences in suicide". I believe this change reflects the subject matter that is in the article while conforming to the Wikipedia standards that led to the original name change. CoeA (talk) 04:53, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. This title better reflects the terminology used in the articles cited and current scholarly practice.DStrassmann (talk) 12:12, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

M/F ratio age 20-24[edit]

"American males between the ages of 20 and 24 have a suicide rate that is seven times higher than that of women."

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/suicide/youthsuicide.htm

The graph says the M/F ratio 20-24 is 5.1 (as of 2005). Am I missing something? I'm going to get rid of the line (since the rate of 5.1 is of no special deviation) until someone can explain what I might be missing.

Revising and cleaning up Gender and suicide[edit]

Hello All. I am a student at Rice University and I am planning on editing and improving this page over the course of the next few weeks. As it stands the page has no introduction, no sections, and isn't very well organized. I hope to go through the current information and clean up/consolidate what is currently there. Particularly, I want to present the statistics that are on the page in a more readable manner. I will also clarify the difference between gender and sex, as the article focuses on the latter despite its title. Currently the article primarily discusses the US, Western Europe, and China; it is my goal to include some information about the gender/suicide disparity in other countries, particularly those of Asia and Africa. In doing so, I hope to also be able to add additional material about the social causes of the suicide gap. If I have enough time, I will also try to address some LGBT-related suicide issues, as I believe this will fall under the umbrella of 'gender'. I would appreciate any comments or tips, as I am still a fairly new editor. I am looking forward to expanding this page, as I feel this is an important issue that isn't well-developed yet on Wikipedia!

CoeA (talk) 02:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I just submitted my changes to the article. Almost all of the original information, with the exception of a few uncited claims, is still in the current version. I just tried to reorganize the headings and make everything look a little cleaner. There's also some new information about factors that have helped cause the gender paradox. I agree with Lady of Shallot that the article could definitely benefit from more information about transgendered individuals. I may try to tackle this on my own, but I would appreciate the advice of someone with more knowledge in the field.

CoeA (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

After reading your article I have a few suggestions for possible revisions. One small suggestion is switching your second and third sentence in the lead section as readers may like to know what the gap is before the fact that they vary by country. Additionally you switch tenses from present to past tense. I also think moving the methods section after factors of gender paradox will give the article more balance and help maintain a more neutral point of view from the beginning. I was left wondering about other explanations outside of gendered expectations until the very end. This might help to make your article more neutral by its function as an additional explanations aside from gendered expectations on men and women. Additionally is there any follow up data on the preventative programs that are targeted at certain genders? This might be helpful to include in this section. I also think the first line in the U.S. section on global trends of suicide is confusing. Could you maybe clarify the couple opening lines? Do suicide ratios vary by year or state or age group? The sentence, “typically males die from suicide three to four times more often as females, and not unusually five or more times as often” is also confusing. Finally the section on Non-western nations could be expanded and fleshed out. Right now it just feels like a bunch of facts in a row. I think you have a great article so far and your facts are well researched and informative! Great job so far; I think you have a great entry and keep up the good work!

Risadieken (talk) 00:44, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

CoeA, Your contribution has added a lot to the article, and definitely made it much easier to read and understand. In addition to the improvements suggested by Risadieken above, I have a few comments myself! I think that you could expand your overview in addition to just re-arranging it. You could add some information about the different types of explanation for the difference (sociological differences vs. physical differences in methods vs. different expectations). This could help readers better mentally outline your article and have a good frame for approaching reading it. In terms of a few Wiki notes, you have a fair number of links and good citations, but your links could be a little more balanced and plentiful (for example in "Factors" section you link for hegemonic masculinity but not femininity). If you can, look at adding more links and explanations from the perspective of someone who knows very little about sociology.

I think Risadieken's suggestion to move the "Methods" section up is a good one, and also think that you can improve a lot of your section titles. Methods could expand a little bit to something like Differing methods by gender-- the paragraph isn't actually a replacement for the suicide methods article, but is an analysis of how males and females typically use different methods. You could also maybe consider moving the Methods section inside of your "Gender Paradox" main section to give it more context.

Lastly, your charts and pictures look great, but could be improved. In the table it's unclear of what time period the data came from. A user has to scroll down to the reverences section to check and see the publish date of the source, but that still doesn't tell what date range the information in the table actually covers. The two maps of the US are also a little old-- are there updated versions available from the same organizations? It would be interesting to see if the rates changed with the financial crisis and economic downturn. Overall though this is a great contribution thus far. The article is much improved from its previous versions. Good luck with the rest of your edits, and message me if you would like any more comments or clarifications.

matt.9.johnson (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Risadieken and Matt.9.johnson
Thank you for your comments! You definitely gave me some useful tips to work with. Your perspectives helped me recognize some major problems that still need to be addressed. I think the reason the article might seem a little disjointed (mixed tenses, weird section order, outdated graphs) is because I was hesitant to rewrite and delete previous information from the article. I ended up inserting some older sentences into newer edits because they seemed to flow better. I will make sure to go back through and update the older information. I'm not quite sure how to change the coding for the graphs, so I may reach out for help from another editor. I'll do my best to clarify and expand the sections that you both found confusing. As it stands I am using some of the most up to date literature, but I will do my best to try and find sources that address male suicide rates in response to more recent economic events.
Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback. If any other editors are watching this page and want to make changes, I think you've given them somewhere to start as well. CoeA (talk) 01:34, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Factors[edit]

Concerning this text:-

"One common explanation relies on the social constructions of hegemonic masculinity and femininity. In a review of the literature on gender and suicide, male suicide rates were explained in terms of traditional gender roles. Male gender roles tend to emphasize greater levels of strength, independence, and risk-taking behavior.[7]"

This is a misleading representation of the citation, which for instance clearly says:-

"In short, then, suicide is clearly the result of a complex interaction of a number of precipitating factors and, in this review, we have focused on the social determinants of suicide."

The reader atm is being misled and this seems like point pushing. Also is this "explanation " common? I'd edit myself but will probably get blocked. CSDarrow (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"reported suicide attempts are 3 times more common among females than males"[edit]

The full citation isn't given, but I'm looking at http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html and all I see is "keep in mind that there are about 3 female attempts for every male attempt" and "3 female attempts for each male attempt" but no actual data. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6013a1.htm showed rates per 1000 in the US of 0.4 for men and 0.5 for women, a ratio of 4:5 (see table 1). I therefore propose to remove the 3:1 figure which is currently unsupported by actual data and replace with the 5:4 figure derived from the 1058 suicide attempts recorded in the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, United States, 2008-2009. Double Happiness (talk) 13:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The second citation on that (Crosby et al.) actually shows no statistical difference between suicide attempts between females and males, although it does suggest women are more likely to have suicidal thoughts. Has anyone seen any research that actually indicates females attempt suicide more often than males? --Cperryk (talk) 03:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

In response to this information, I'm going to remove the statement. It seems to have come from thin air, and diverts attention away from the staggering difference in suicide deaths. 66.207.219.214 (talk) 08:27, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Why did you remove all of this, especially given what the sourced lead states? How do you know that all of that is unsourced? Flyer22 (talk) 10:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I looked at the source cited at the end, and it doesn't seem to claim that(boy was it expensive buying that PDF, but I felt like wiping some of the slime off of this article). The claim itself is also disputed here in the talk page, in addition to not being part of the source cited. It also seems thematically inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph; it could turn out that the claim is true, but it still wouldn't belong there, and it would deserve its own paragraph. 66.207.219.214 (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Along with what you removed, was the following line: "Females report attempting suicide at a higher rate than males in the United States." The sourced lead states, "Statistics indicate that males die by suicide more frequently than do females; however, reported suicide attempts and suicidal ideation are more common among females." And Cperryk (talk · contribs) stated above in this section, "The second citation on that (Crosby et al.) actually shows no statistical difference between suicide attempts between females and males, although it does suggest women are more likely to have suicidal thoughts." So that is why I asked why you removed all of the content. That females are more prone to attempt suicide and fail at it because they use ineffective suicide methods more often than males do is covered in WP:Reliable sources. Flyer22 (talk) 23:41, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
That stated, this aspect is already covered and sourced lower in the article. Flyer22 (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

March 2017[edit]

As seen with this edit (followup edit here), I have altered the lead and it again includes the "suicide attempts are between two and four times more frequent among females" factor and the "different methods" factor (as it should).

As seen with this and this edit, an IP and I are in disagreement about the wording regarding suicidal thoughts. The IP wants to indicate that suicidal thoughts being more common among females than among males is simply due to girls and women reporting the matter more often. I've reverted on the basis that we should simply go by what the source (or sources) state. The sentence had stated "however one study suggests the prevalence of suicidal thoughts was higher among females than it was among males." This is true, and it's simply reporting what the source states. I understand the IP's objection; the IP's objection is that we do not know for certain that females think about suicide more often than males do. Still, the sentence was specifically attributed to one study and that study states, "The prevalence of suicidal thoughts was significantly higher among females than it was among males, but there was no statistically significant difference for suicide planning or suicide attempts." I've since changed the sentence to "The extent of suicidal thoughts is not clear, but research suggests that suicidal thoughts are more common among females than among males.", and added an additional source for it. The IP will no doubt object to this wording as well, but I see no need to undermine/cast doubt on the data by adding "that females were more likely to report" suicidal thoughts. If there is evidence to the contrary, then yeah. But what evidence to the contrary exists? And when it comes to matters such as these, "report" being a factor is obvious anyway. We don't usually add a qualifier such as "men report" and "women report"; we usually state the matter as fact, per the data, unless there is data to indicate otherwise. The new sentence already states "research indicates" which shows some existence of doubt. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:44, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

> The IP wants to indicate that suicidal thoughts being more common among females than among males is simply due to girls and women reporting the matter more often
No. This was not stated. I simply don't believe in interpreting the research, as that constitutes original research, which has no place in a wikipedia article. The research measures the reporting of suicidal thoughts. That is what is measured. If you want to interpret this as this meaning that females have more suicidal thoughts than males, it would require you to put your conjecture on the table that both males and females are equally likely to report suicidal thoughts given some number of them. Another plausible interpretation would be that males are less likely to report suicidal thoughts, which lines up nicely with the research that males are less likely to seek help in this regard in general, which may contribute to their higher risk of suicide. I don't know the correct answer, but conjecturing one way or another has no place in a wikipedia article.
Regardless, what is measured is reports, not thoughts. Anything else is your conjecturing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 19:45, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
>but I see no need to undermine/cast doubt on the data
This isn't casting doubt on the data. This is about interpretation OF data. For example, if I ask people how fast they drive, and I get an answer, that's not the same as measuring how fast they drive. This is like finding a research article that polls people on their driving speed, then quotes the results of the article as if it measured their ACTUAL speed of driving. Do you not see the difference? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 19:50, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Interesting note here, but citation #6 does not seem to back up the claim in the lead that females attempt suicide "2 - 4 times more often than males." In fact I can't find that figure in any of the sources. Citation #6 makes the claim, but gives a reference to this article for the data: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12217397_Suicide_acts_in_8_states_Incidence_and_case_fatality_rates_by_demographics_and_method (it is their #2 citation). This seems to be a decent chunk of good data, but it's regionally biased mostly to California, so it certainly doesn't reflect a worldwide view on the subject. Regardless, it represents 91,000 attempts, of which 56% were female. A far cry from the "2 - 4 times as likely" figure. I don't think this "2 - 4 times as likely" figure should be in the lead, and perhaps it shouldn't be in the article at all. Not unless somebody finds some big concrete data sets backing up that claim, rather than articles making references to other articles ad infinitum. I'm starting to wonder if the idea that females are "much more likely" to attempt suicide is mythology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I've reverted you on this and this per the what I stated above, and per this already having been debated and settled at the Suicide talk page, which is why this content is also at Suicide#Sex. See Talk:Suicide/Archive 6#Not supported by majority of sources. Pay attention to the sources I listed there. Also see this discussion.
The sentence states, "Suicide attempts are between two and four times more frequent among females." The first source to back that up states, "Females attempt suicide nearly 4 times more frequently than males." The second source to back that up states, "Women are three to four times more likely than men to attempt suicide." The third source to back that up is from the World Health Organization (WHO) and it states, "Rates of non-fatal suicidal behaviour tend to be 2-3 times higher in women than in men." At the Suicide article, we have used "two and four times" because that is the range given by sources; the sources on this matter state "two to three times," "three to four times" or "nearly four times." Not only did you remove this material, but you removed the sourced material on the gender paradox, which notes that "researchers have attributed the difference between attempted and completed suicides among the sexes to males using more lethal means to end their lives." And the first source for that gender paradox sentence states "women in the same range attempt suicide three times as often as men", while the third source for that gender paradox sentence states "females appear to attempt suicide more often."
I'm alerting WP:Med to this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:36, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
We simply follow high quality sources. Please see WP:MEDRS for what these are. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:54, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Exactly. And, IP, in addition to what Doc James stated above, you can see that he pointed to a 2015 review in this section. The review states, "One of the most consistent findings in suicide research is that women make more suicide attempts than men, but men are more likely to die in their attempts than women. [...] One reason for the lack of investment in female suicidal behavior may be that there has been a tendency to view suicidal behavior in women as manipulative and nonserious [...] In most countries, men die by suicide at 2–4 times the rate of women, despite the fact that women make twice as many suicide attempts as men."
And then there are the sources I pointed to in the aforementioned archived discussion:
Click on this to see the sources.

1. This 2004 Praeger Guide to the Psychology of Gender source, from Greenwood Publishing Group, page 96, states, "The WHO (2003) reports that at sites all over the world, women attempt suicide more frequently than men, and the world rate is 3.5 to 1. However, it is also reported that except in China and parts of India, men commit suicide more frequently than women do. The world rate for suicide completion is 3.5. men to each woman."

2. This 2006 Handbook of Girls' and Women's Psychological Health source, from Oxford University Press, page 130, states, "In most countries, suicide rates are highest in men, those who are divorced or separated, unemployed, poor, and socially isolated (McKenzie et al., 2003). In terms of suicide, women in some cultural groups are at more risk than women in other cultural groups, and men are generally more at risk than women. Paradoxically, then, women are more likely to attempt suicide, but men are much more likely to die by suicide."

3. This 2008 Kaplan & Sadock's Concise Textbook of Clinical Psychiatry source, from Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, page 428, states, "Men commit suicide more than four times as often as women, a rate that is stable over all ages. Women, however, are four times more likely to attempt suicide than men."

4. This 2009 Textbook of International Health: Global Health in a Dynamic World source, from Oxford University Press, page 261, states, "Even though women attempt suicide more often than men, the completed suicide rate is 3.5 times higher among men."

5. This 2009 Contemporary Topics in Women's Mental Health: Global perspectives in a changing society source, from John Wiley & Sons, page 122, states, "Relatively few studies have investigated completed suicides in women [12] despite this puzzling phenomenon and the large number of attempted suicides. This is in part due to a focus on mortality by suicide, and since the mortality is highest amongst men, that is where most research is focused. Suicide attempts, however, are approximately 10-20 times as common as completed suicides, and the gender difference, in many countries, is much greater than for completed suicide [13]. It can be said that suicidal morbidity is much higher in women, but also for the whole disease burden for suicidality, if morbidity and mortality are combined. While suicide is a predominantly male phenomenon, suicidality as a whole is predominantly a female phenomenon [12, 14]. Regardless of which of the sexes carries the greater burden, the paramount reason for a deeper understanding of the gender paradox is to increase our arsenal in the battle to prevent attempted and completed suicide."

6. This 2009 Oxford Textbook of Suicidology and Suicide Prevention source, from Pennsylvania State University/OUP Oxford, page 232, states, "In most countries of the world, the sex ratio (male to female) of completed suicides is around 3:1, and at the same time, women attempt suicide approximately three times more often than men."

7. This 2010 Essentials of Abnormal Psychology source, from Cengage Learning, page 246, states, "Although males commit suicide more often than females in most of the world, females attempt suicide at least three times as often (Berman & Jobes, 1991; Kuo et al., 2001)."

8. This 2010 Sociology of Deviant Behavior source, from Cengage Learning, page 311, states, "Suicide occurs more commonly among men than among women in almost all countries. In fact, men's rates generally average three to four times higher than women's, although women attempt suicide more often than men (Canetto and Lester, 1995b)."

9. This 2012 Behavioral Science in Medicine source, from Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, page 139, states, "Although women attempt suicide four times more often than men do, men successfully commit suicide three times more often than women do. One reason for this difference is that men tend to use more violent and hence lethal means than women."

10. This 2014 A Sociology Of Mental Health And Illness source, from McGraw-Hill Education (UK), page 48, states, "Although women attempt suicide more frequently then men, the figures for actual suicide are consistently higher for men than women."

11. This 2014 Abnormal Psychology: An Integrative Approach source, from Cengage Learning, page 292, states, "Although males commit suicide more often than females in most of the world (e.g., CDC, 2013), females attempt suicide at least 3 times as often (Berman & Jobes, 1991; Kuo et al., 2001)."

12. This 2016 Deviance and Deviants: A Sociological Approach source, from John Wiley & Sons, page 179, states, "There is a gender paradox in suicide: even though women are more likely than men to have suicidal thoughts and attempt suicide, men are more likely to commit suicide than women."

Research does not support the idea that females being much more likely to attempt suicide is mythology. Clearly, I can replace any of the existing sources on this matter with other sources because the research is consistent on the statement that women are more likely than men to attempt suicide. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
The current content is well sourced and accurately reflects those sources. Jytdog (talk) 07:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Can't find this data in any of the sources. Please provide source for the data. I followed citation #6, led down the rabbit hole as reported above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 14:11, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Also, the separate issue that you are claiming a reported suicidal thought is the same as a suicidal thought is silly. See the example as given above. Original research/conjecturing has no place in a wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 14:12, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I figured out your misunderstanding! You are mis-quoting the research. The research states that women are 3 - 4 times to NON-FATALLY attempt suicide. They are not 2 - 4 times more likely to attempt suicide. That is massive distinction. If you correct this phrasing, I'd be okay with it. If you just state "2 - 4 times more likely to attempt suicide" -- that suggests the inclusion of successful attempts, wheras the sourced data that you yourself link specifically and explicitly is talking about non-fatal suicide attempts. Across all attempts, it is almost exactly equal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 14:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
I am not misquoting any research. You are not listening. I explained the matter quite well above, pointing to past discussion and including a number of sources supporting "two to three times," "three to four times" or "nearly four times", as well as the fact that "researchers have attributed the difference between attempted and completed suicides among the sexes to males using more lethal means to end their lives." And yet you still felt it was appropriate to remove all of this material yet again. The only one engaging in appropriate interpretation at this talk page is you. And given the number of sources I've provided above, you might as well move on. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
IP editor, Flyer has done a ton of work to show the sources and quote from them in the hatted section above. You are not dealing with what this huge mass of sources actually says. What you must do in order to gain consensus for your changes, is to cite here on the Talk page, proposed different content, with a mass of sources clearly supporting it. I will not be replying here further until you propose very well sourced alternate content, and if you continue to edit war to remove the content you don't like, you will be blocked. I suggest others stop responding here as well, until the IP proposes very well sourced alternate content. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

There are two issues here:

1). The quote, from the WHO, is exactly "Rates of non-fatal suicidal behaviour tend to be 2-3 times higher in women than in men."https://books.google.com/books?id=YBdnDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA130

The quote is not "suicide attempts are 2 - 4 times higher than in men. Flyer22 quotes a list of sources.

The first source cites the WHO, which again states non-fatal suicidal attempts for this data. So, no new information here, and we are still at non-fatal suicidal attempts.

The second source cites the WHO again, which again states non-fatal suicidal attempts.

The third source does not contain a citation for the data.

The fourth source cites the WHO, which states that non-fatal suicidal attempts are 2-4 times higher in women than in men.

The fifth source cites the WHO, which states that non-fatal suicidal attempts are 2-4 times higher in women than in men.

I'll keep going, but unless somebody provides additional unique sources that state quite clearly, with data, that "overall suicide attempts are 2 - 4 times higher in women", I would say that this result is highly contentious, and that the accurate representation, as backed by the World Health Organization and another large (but USA-biased dataset), https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12217397_Suicide_acts_in_8_states_Incidence_and_case_fatality_rates_by_demographics_and_method of about 91,000 suicide attempts also backs the claim that it is specifically non-fatal suicide attempts that are much higher in women than in men.

Second issue: 2) The reporting that "suicidal thoughts are higher in women." I'm not seeing ANY sources for this. There is some polls stated, but that's not appropriate to make such a strong claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

What you have done here is not what is required. Please read what I wrote which is painfully clear. Jytdog (talk) 03:06, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

You aren't meeting the standards of wikipedia. There is a hierchy of sources from best to worst. The best are journal articles that contain data. Worse is journal articles that contain no data that merely cite those that do contain data -- because the data can be misconstrued and taken out of context. Worse yet are encyclopedias/almanacs/etc that contain excessive commentary and little to no original research.

So far out of all the cited articles linked, two contain data. Both of the ones that contain data (WHO and the other one I linked) state clearly and openly that non-fatal suicidal attempts (NOT overall suicide rates) are higher among then men.

Therefore, I am reverting the article to the prior state as it is a more accurate representation of the citations that you and others have listed. In the mean time, please gather your thoughts, citations, and data if you have any to share. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 04:04, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Or rather, I will be reverting it to the prior state the exact moment that I can. In the mean time, I recommend bringing in external experts or thinking about how to phrase the wording accurately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:190:4200:DF2E:0:0:0:F162 (talk) 04:07, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for making your intention to edit war very clear. You already did edit war in letter and spirit and were given a pass by User:El C, whom I have now pinged. Jytdog (talk) 04:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
I would recommend trying to stick to an intuitive, straight-forward viewing of the sources, IP. Because you're increasingly coming across as circular and tendentious. El_C 04:48, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
IP, the first source in the template list I provided above states, "Women reported attempting suicide about two to three times as often as men." and "The WHO (2003) reports that at sites all over the world, women attempt suicide more frequently than men, and the world rate is 3.5 to 1. However, it is also reported that except in China and parts of India, men commit suicide more frequently than women do. The world rate for suicide completion is 3.5. men to each woman." It does not state "non-fatal suicidal attempts."
The second source in the template list I provided above states, "In most countries, suicide rates are highest in men, those who are divorced or separated, unemployed, poor, and socially isolated (McKenzie et al., 2003). In terms of suicide, women in some cultural groups are at more risk than women in other cultural groups, and men are generally more at risk than women. Paradoxically, then, women are more likely to attempt suicide, but men are much more likely to die by suicide." It does not state "non-fatal suicidal attempts."
The third source in the template list I provided above states, "Men commit suicide more than four times as often as women, a rate that is stable over all ages. Women, however, are four times more likely to attempt suicide than men." It does not state "non-fatal suicidal attempts."
The fourth source in the template list I provided above states, "Even though women attempt suicide more often than men, the completed suicide rate is 3.5 times higher among men." It does not state "non-fatal suicidal attempts."
The fifth source in the template list I provided above states, "Relatively few studies have investigated completed suicides in women [12] despite this puzzling phenomenon and the large number of attempted suicides. This is in part due to a focus on mortality by suicide, and since the mortality is highest amongst men, that is where most research is focused. Suicide attempts, however, are approximately 10-20 times as common as completed suicides, and the gender difference, in many countries, is much greater than for completed suicide [13]. It can be said that suicidal morbidity is much higher in women, but also for the whole disease burden for suicidality, if morbidity and mortality are combined. While suicide is a predominantly male phenomenon, suicidality as a whole is predominantly a female phenomenon [12, 14]."
And then, of course, there are the other sources I listed in the template, such as the sixth source which cites the WHO and states, "In most countries of the world, the sex ratio (male to female) of completed suicides is around 3:1, and at the same time, women attempt suicide approximately three times more often than men." So I don't know why you keep focusing on the wording "non-fatal suicidal attempts," but you sound an awful lot like the editor who made such arguments in the aforementioned past discussions. Furthermore, non-fatal suicidal attempts are usually simply referred to as "suicide attempts" while successful suicide attempts are usually simply referred to as "suicide" or "completed suicides." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

China[edit]

I reverted an edit claiming that the source didn't list 30% as an actual amount - however the person who edited was looking at the wrong article, and not the one cited. Countered (talk) 00:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913725/

"More than 30% of all deaths to rural females 15 to 29 years of age are due to suicide."

  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8840421

"The comparatively low suicide rate (4.8 per 100,000 population)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Countered (talkcontribs)


I removed the sentence "It has been found that suicide makes up for about 30% of deaths of women living in rural China." again because, firstly, it is obviously bs (in the available articles it is mentioned that the suicide rate in rural china is about 3x higher than in urban areas, which would keep it in the ppm region per year and still at most in the low percent region over a lifetime), secondly, it is not contained in the cited reference and thirdly, even though it is contained in the reference cited above, the citation IT refers to (Phillips (or Phyllips? there is inconsistency withing the cited article) et. al) is nowhere to be found (it was only presented at a conference). --Felix Tritschler (talk) 23:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Felix Tritschler The ref is clear. If you want to remove that sentence, you'll need other refs refuting it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 02:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I did, by saying that "in the (other) available articles (cited here) it is mentioned that the suicide rate in rural china is about 3x higher than in urban areas, which would keep it in the ppm region per year and still at most in the low percent region over a lifetime. So I removed this sentence again. --Felix Tritschler (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Table[edit]

The current table is outdated and for an unknown reason features US, as if the information presented is somehow promotional of the states. (88.104.201.232 (talk) 01:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC))

Thank you for pointing that out. I updated the numbers using the WHO database as recommended on the WHO suicide prevention page. Per WP:CALC, I used the most recent and most complete data possible (2009 seemed like best year as 2010 was missing quite a few) to find the top 10 suicide rates. You can find the Excel file I used to sort the rates at this link. Cheers. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Nice work whoever's had a shot at this page.

It is very difficult to choose a 'representative' sample of countries as an illustration. Perhaps one parameter might be significant countries mentioned in the text, and then maybe adding a range of countries that includes some that are likely to be familiar to readers (bearing in mind it is an English language Wiki), some to achieve balance simply from the size or international activity of countries and get a balance of ethnicities. The inclusion of Latvia for instance, seems a little strange strange.

I didn't manage to quite the same figures using the WHO tool, which is admittedly a bit fiddly, nor did I see the suicides listed as per hundred thousand, although that is good that the researchers have got those figures. This paper http://www.who.int/gender/documents/en/whopaper6.pdf lists them all but just for 1999 (not for quotation).

The statement, "For males the rate of attempted suicide remains fairly constant when controlled for age," has not been supported with a source and perhaps needs to be clarified or expanded. We notice a very large difference by age in this study: "Gender and Ethnic Differences in Older Adult Suicide" (table 1): http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/MH/Documents/OA%20Suicide.pdf

One or two other papers that might be of interest... http://susan-blumenthal.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Susan-Blumenthal-Suicide_and_Gender.pdf http://www.medlive.cn/uploadfile/2011/1118/20111118110957720.pdf http://www.psychology.org.au/inpsych/2012/august/beaton/

sorry I'm not signed in — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.125.187 (talk) 20:30, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Evolutionary Explanations Missing[edit]

My prose isn't good enough to actually make an addition, but I think a evolutionary perspective is needed. The theory argues that men die of suicide more often than women because they do not value their lives as much as women. Since men are not essential to the survival of their offspring, and their potential for reproduction is much more varied, men have evolved to be less fearful of taking risks than women have. If a woman under natural conditions were to die, her children would most likely die as well. Therefore women have evolved to be more fearful of death and physical risk than men, and are therefore less likely to die of suicide. Under this theory suicide is just an expression of males' general willingness to take risks [1] [2]

Chimes of Freedom (talk) 00:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

References

I agree that an evolutionary perspective is relevant here, and should be added.
For starters, see this brief overview: Is killing yourself adaptive? That depends: An evolutionary theory about suicide. Memills (talk) 16:36, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Original Research[edit]

"This is likely due to several factors, including a higher risk for depression among females in the United State" k, but this is original research aka made up bullshit and needs to be removed Bumblebritches57 (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Um... that's not WP:OR since it's cited by an WP:RS. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:14, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

"Paradox"[edit]

I don't see any explanation in the article about why the gender difference in suicide rates are a paradox. I'm not sure if that word is being used correctly in this context, even though one of the sources refers to it as such.

It's surprising that suicidal ideation rate doesn't appear to correlate with successful suicide rate, but I wouldn't call it a paradox. It might be a paradox if, accounting for all differences between men and women, men still commit suicide at a higher rate while maintaining lower suicidal ideation rates. But it's not very absurd to think that there are great differences between the genders that might lead to this.

I've noticed it's become a trend among the social sciences to label every apparent contradiction as a 'paradox'. Should this article stay faithful to such interpretations? — Fuebar [talk | cont] 04:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC) No. 24.107.236.113 (talk) 03:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

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Causes[edit]

Hi,

this site http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Suicide/Pages/Causes.aspx doesn't mention gender roles etc. as a cause of suidide among men. Overall, mental health, particularly depression, is often claimed as the most common cause. Perhaps time for a rewrite?

T 88.89.5.214 (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

But other good sources do. So not sure why this would support a rewrite? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:36, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, gender roles are not even mentioned as a cause in the Wiki main article on suicide. Random googling is of course not The Way, but is at least a weak indicator: from self-published self-help "Over 90 percent of people who die by suicide have a mental illness at the time of their death. And the most common mental illness is depression. Untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide ..." via the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/health/suicide-rate-rises-sharply-in-us.html) and BCMJ (http://www.bcmj.org/articles/silent-epidemic-male-suicide) to the NHS (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Suicide/Pages/Causes.aspx ) all fail to mention gender roles. It's not that gendre roles may not play a part, but AFAICS they shouldn't be presented as the main part, and certainly not as the only part. The truth? Possibly. Nothing but the truth? Possibly. The whole truth? Absolutely not. That there are good sources for one possible aspect doesn't support elevating one possible aspect to explain the actual whole. T 88.89.5.214 (talk) 15:04, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
What are you proposing and why? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2017 (UTC)