Talk:Gough-Calthorpe family

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Gough-Calthorpe family[edit]

I have deleted the unnecessary information that Gough-Calthorpe is a 'double-barrelled' surname, which is self-evident (but is also a slang expression) and the location of the family papers, which have no place in this article. – Agendum 10:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

On what basis do you claim that the location of the family papers have "no place" in an article about, er, the family? Andy Mabbett 09:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The usual Wikipedia style in biographies does not find it necessary to identify the location of family papers. – Agendum 10:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
That's no reason not to do so here. Andy Mabbett 10:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I've restored them yet again. Please desist. Andy Mabbett 06:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Arthur Gough-Calthorpe[edit]

Andy – do you happen to know which member of the family was elected as M.P. for Bramber in 1825, after William Wilberforce? I have it as Arthur Gough-Calthorpe, but can find no reference to him anywhere, apart from in a listing of former Members of Parliament. The first name may be an error, in which case, I guess either George or Frederick would be likely contenders. – Agendum 10:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no. Andy Mabbett 06:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Cecily and Julian[edit]

The " Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe family" section is now listed hierarchically, with the exception of siblings Cecily and Julian Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe. Who are their parents? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:06, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


Regarding ‘Cecily’, ‘Julian’ and ‘Camilla’-

(for reference- the three edits by 92.4.10.73 on 30 November 2009 were mine; I thought I had left myself signed in but had not)

‘Cecily’ and ‘Julian’ first appear in an edit of 13 November 2008 (by ‘Dewymonkey’) as cousins to Isabella, Gabriella and Jacobi. As their name is given as ‘Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe’, they must be related to Isabella, Gabriella and Jacobi through their father, John Austen Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe. Soon after appears mention of a ‘Camilla’, listed as ‘first cousin to Isabella’ and ‘second cousin of Gabriella and Jacobi’; this can only be erroneous in any case since it is Isabella and Jacobi who are full siblings, Gabriella being a half-sister through their father’s second marriage (she also has a younger sister, Octavia, who is not mentioned as a ‘cousin’ to the fictitious A-G-Cs, another red flag). A first cousin to Isabella would be a first cousin to Jacobi also. This serves to undermine the existence of ‘Cecily’ and ‘Julian’- it should also be noted that internet searches and checks in genealogical sources produced no results for their names apart from this article.

In Burke’s Peerage Baronetage and Knightage (107th Edition) Volume I, in the family entry for Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe, Cecily, Julian and Camilla do not appear at all. John Austen Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe’s siblings are Niall Hamilton Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe (1940-1970) (whose children are Sir Euan Hamilton A-G-C, 3rd Baronet and Lara Nancy Don A-G-C) and Michael Richard A-G-C, who is not listed as married in any source. Neither Sir Euan nor his sister have children named ‘Cecily’, ‘Julian’ or ‘Camilla’.

The surname ‘Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpe’ was granted by royal license in 1910 to Sir FitzRoy Hamilton Lloyd-Anstruther (who married Hon. Rachel Gough-Calthorpe); this means that prior to this date nobody existed with this surname. This reduces considerably the number of potential lines ‘Cecily’ ‘Julian’ and ‘Camilla’ could belong to. Sir FitzRoy A-G-C’s children were Sir Richard A-G-C (himself father of John Austen and his siblings listed in the previous paragraph) and two daughters (Frances Jean and Barbara), whose children were Stockdales and Lawson-Johnstons, respectively. This means that through any legitimate line (wherein ‘Cecily’ ‘Julian’ and ‘Camilla’ would have been BORN Anstruther-Gough-Calthorpes) the three apparently fictitious individuals have not appeared.

While there are certain circumstances which might result in ‘Cecily’ and ‘Julian’ being real people (for example, relatives- or even unrelated individuals- adopting the name for some reason), without proof- indeed, all legitimate sources indicate that they do not exist- the onus is on a contributor, if they wish ‘Cecily’ and ‘Julian’ to be included here, to provide such a source, without which their inclusion here can surely only be considered misinformation. I know this is all very long-winded, but I wanted to make sure my edit was not seen as arbitrary...thanks for reading! Ashiyura (talk) 18:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)