Talk:Goy/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Pejorative Sense

The question of whether goy in English has a pejorative sense is a constant source of contention on this page.

There are a number of considerations here:
1) We are talking about the meaning of the word "goy" in English - not Hebrew or Yiddish
2) Three English dictionaries are cited as references on this point all of which confirm that there is sometimes a pejorative sense. If anything the dictionaries say it more strongly - eg the oxford dictionary cited says Goy is "often offensive."
3) The article says that goy "sometimes" has a pejorative sense. Not always.
4) The article has a detailed section on "goy as a slur" which presents views of people who don't believe it should be primarily understood as pejorative.

When Jews use it, it def. has a perjorative sense. --105.8.7.149 (talk) 15:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Shiksa/Shegetz?

"Shiksa" redirects to this article but there is no explanation. Would someone please expand the article? Design (talk) 01:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I have restored Shiksa because it was redirected here without the information there being added here. Editor2020 (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

"Shegetz" also redirects to "Goy" now but should it redirect to "Sheigetz" instead? Blisterpus (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 14:51, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Pejorative Sense

The question of whether goy in English has a pejorative sense is a constant source of contention on this page.

There are a number of considerations here: 1) We are talking about the meaning of the word "goy" in English - not Hebrew or Yiddish 2) Three English dictionaries are cited as references on this point all of which confirm that there is sometimes a pejorative sense. If anything the dictionaries say it more strongly - eg the oxford dictionary cited says Goy is "often offensive." 3) The article says that goy "sometimes" has a pejorative sense. Not always. 4) The article has a detailed section on "goy as a slur" which presents views of people who don't believe it should be primarily understood as pejorative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atrapalhado (talk • contribs) 18:18, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Conceptual vagueness

This page uncritically translates goyim as "nation" or "nations", but never actually defines what is meant by "nations". The word "nations" did not historically carry the connotations it now does, so some explanation of what precisely it was understood to mean would be greatly informative in the present article. 77.101.182.135 (talk) 14:44, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a rather odd comment! The term "nation" is defined in the second paragraph. Atrapalhado (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

You're right, apologies - I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking 77.101.182.135 (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Exonym section

The section added nothing to the article specific to the word Goy. All of that information can be obtained by following the wikilink to exonym which appears in the lede. -- Avi (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Avi Thanks for this - I got a little carried away with the exonym point and on reflection I agreee a whole new section is not required! However, I think this is interesting and some more thought/amendment is required to get the point right.

I note a similar point about "exonyms" was added a couple of days ago to the gentile article and the removed as someone else argued that gentile (and presumably also goy) is not an exonym. I now think that is correct - eg the Wikipedia page on Exonym is clear that "exonym" is a word used to describe a particular group or place by people not of that group/place.

Nonetheless, "goy" (I refer to "goy" going forward but I think the same point applies to "gentile") is very often discussed in the secondary literature in comparison to other terms that imply outgroup - most notably gaijin in Japanese.

There is a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to List of terms for ethnic exogroups which includes "goy" alongside several other terms from other cultures, but it is a poor article, with no references and I cannot find the concept of "ethnic exogroup" used outside this wikipedia article.

In the absence of anything else I have therefore amended the "goy" article to link to that "ethnic exogroup" page and also to a robust academic article that explores the comparison to "gaijin." It seems to me, though, that there should be some academic literature somewhere that provides a clear term for words that mean "the outgroup", "the non-members" - however I cannot find it! Atrapalhado (talk) 15:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Or perhaps the key difference between "goy" and "gentile" as English words is that goy is a type of exonym, while gentile isn't: a non-Jew might refer to themself as a gentile but would probably be looked at oddly if they described themself as a goy. Again, it would be good to find secondary literature that referenced this point. Atrapalhado (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Pejorative Sense

The question of whether goy in English has a pejorative sense is a constant source of contention on this page. There are a number of considerations here: 1) We are talking about the meaning of the word "goy" in English - not Hebrew or Yiddish

2) Three English dictionaries are cited as references on this point all of which confirm that there is sometimes a pejorative sense. If anything the dictionaries say it more strongly - eg the oxford dictionary cited says Goy is "often offensive."

3) The article says that goy "sometimes" has a pejorative sense. Not always.

4) The article has a detailed section on "goy as a slur" which presents views of people who don't believe it should be primarily understood as pejorative.

Atrapalhado (talk) 11:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Goy/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Atrapalhado

Reviewer: Spinixster (talk · contribs) 02:00, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I'll be reviewing this article based on the Good Article criteria and related guidelines. I am not experienced in this topic, so the full review would take a while.

Initial things

• Merge proposal: There is currently a merge proposal on the page. The consensus seems to be a redirect, though, since the other article is already mentioned in this one, so I don't think it will affect this article too much.
• Copyvio: 52.2% similarity, although most of it is common phrases and attributed quotes. It is not a problem, but I'd encourage paraphrasing some parts in order to make the percentage lower.
• IMPORTANT! Sourcing needs to be improved. Much of the article relies on questionable sources, such as "biblestudytools.com" and Chabad.org, which per this discussion is only reliable for statements related to the Chabad movement. I think this can easily be replaced with better ones. I'd also encourage using more scholarly sources, especially more recent ones; Google Scholar and The Wikipedia Library can help.

Prose changes

• Lead: The lead should be a summary of the whole article. Parts from the lead that are not mentioned in the body should be moved accordingly. (WP:LEAD)
• Image Similar to Allah, I would add an image of the word in Hebrew on top so that the article is illustrated.

I've decided to stop the review here. Many of the sources are unreliable/questionable as said above (ex. Israel Today/Israel Hayom, which is not a RS per discussions at WP:RSN). These can easily be swapped with more scholarly/more reliable sources, again, as said above. However, I expect the changes to affect the article drastically, so I'll be marking this review as on hold to give you some time to swap these sources and add more information if needed. If you have any questions, please ask. Spinixster (chat!) 01:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Atrapalhado, I see you have been editing but not on this article, so I'm pinging to ask if you have seen my comments. Spinixster (chat!) 01:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

As it has been 12 days since I've put this review on hold, 9 since I've pinged the nominator, and 7 since the nominator last edited, I will be failing this article. Spinixster (trout me!) 14:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.