Talk:Haplogroup Q-M242

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Use of Phylogenetic Trees to show distribution

Currently there are several different phylogenetic trees used in both scientific and popular (trade) literature. Using any one tree to show distribution within population groups is preferential and violates WP:NOR. Such usage also makes the article susceptible to WP:SYNTH violations.--RebekahThorn (talk) 12:43, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Haplogroup Q Y-DNA in Americas

Why is there no mention about dominance of Haplogroup Q among native populations throughout Americas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.130.14.167 (talk) 14:56, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dominance is a loaded word. This is especially true in population genetics. It would be true to say that several Q-M346 subclades were part of early migrations to the Americas and that Q-M3 is by far the most common one in current descendants of these early migrants.

If anyone cares to go back over specific papers and sources, that would certainly be nice. :-) --RebekahThorn (talk) 17:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scandinavian Q Y-DNA

Apparently there is a sublineage of Q1a3* (Q-M346) which is considered a Scandinavian (and possibly Russian) haplotype & subvariety. According to an admin from the Scandinavian DNA project at FamilyTreeDNA the group (or 'Group 1' of such a group) is distinguished by DYS385a-b=13,12 and DYS392=14 in a 12 marker STR test. Since in Europe this Y-haplogroup seems to be associated with jews, it might be of interest to make mention in the article of where exceptions to this exist. From my purely speculative mind of (regarding synthesis & original research that shouldn't belong in the article) I'm driven to think of the distinct phenotypal minority groups recognized by certain obsolete schools of anthropological taxonomy in Scandinavia, namely the "Standid" & "Tydal" types (probably isolated non-lappoid population pockets from some time in prehistory). Nagelfar (talk) 04:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Haplogroup Q1a3-M346 has also been found in Pakistan (Pashtuns, Makrani Balochs), India (Vellalars, Halbas, Uttar Pradesh Brahmins), and Tibet. I'm afraid that examples of haplogroup Q from many parts of the Old World, including Europe, have not yet been tested for M346; it may turn out to be the most widespread subclade of haplogroup Q in the Old World as well as in the New. Ebizur (talk) 08:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's also another sublineage in Switzerland. СЛУЖБА (talk) 23:41, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any more information about where the numbers for Norway and Sweden come from and more specifically which ethnic groups were tested? Were the Qs found among ethnic Norwegians and Swedes or Sami, for instance? Maitreya (talk) 14:09, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Among Norwegians and Swedes. I don't remember the source, though. twitter.com/YOMALSIDOROFF (talk) 06:49, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If Wikipedia was morally integral or wishes to be, it would publicly emphasize AS GOOD DEMOCRATIC ENLIGHTENMENT-TRADITION PROGRESSIVE HUMANISTS, the factual situation regarding these "explosive untouchable" matters alluded to above (surprisingly, left without being editorially deleted!) - these MORALLY-SIGNIFICANT PAN-HUMANIST facts and bits of reality, would be the center of the article for the sake of authentically ideologically "progressive" reasons, alone -

I am unfortunately learning "editors" and "admins" here are not totally immune to cynical, Machiavellian political agendas, political ideological commitments with SUBZERO interest in reality as it is... In black ironic disillusionment, the most "liberal" Wikipedian "magistrates" are, mathematically, to the degree of "progressive humanist liberal" motivation and magnanimity claimed and awarded communally, these very same individuals are correspondingly, the most viciously illiberal and uninterested in objectivity of supra-human Truth...

The cleverest of such editors, cover the bases by giving the most ostentatious posture and poseur aping of Enlightened progressive intellectualism in selective superficiality of "contributions", merely to fool the common sheep readership: in actuality the academic "pluralism" and "democratic ethos" here appears wholly illusory and power resides in a self-selected bureaucratic ethno-political network of numerically smallest number, espionage-like in character, and as Janus-faced as two-faced gets...

Humanist democratic progressive liberalism is paper-thin on Wikipedia, the deceitful "selling point" given to the "sucker" of Mafia psychological predatory evaluation... Readers are viewed as mere potential suckers, depressingly... "Democratic enlightened ideology" serves in calculated self-interest, as the cloaking layer of crypsis in pitifully ugly, grossly human inter-group, bestially concupiscent Gumplowicz-variety "RASSENKAMPF"... The clique of bigots is specifically committed to a certain world-view, historically traceable to the following:

http://www.saveisrael.com/others/ahimeir/ahimeirbio.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:B34B:A940:45B9:9D2:2589:EE59 (talk) 07:26, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups

The above article has been listed for deletion. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups. Wapondaponda (talk) 04:27, 19 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of Published Studies

I have removed the frequency of 9%, referenced to Regueiro. The 2006 study sampled only 33 individuals from the Northeastern tip of Iran (which may have even included Iranian Minorities). I've replaced it with the 2004 and 2009 studies by Ivan Naszide, which consist of a much broader sampling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.24.44.220 (talk) 03:27, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not delete published studies. Rather add additional studies and note the limitations of each.--RebekahThorn (talk) 12:43, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1) To make such edits, I guess it's better to register and introduce yourself.

2) From where do You have information that the "North Iran" sample is actually from the Northeastern tip of Iran?

3) Regueiro2006 nowhere says "Persian". It uses the terms "Iran" and "Iranian". Which population was studied is really unclear: whether it is Persian, speakers of languages of the Iranian branch or different ethnicities of the country of Iran. СЛУЖБА (talk) 23:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient links between Siberians and Native Americans revealed by subtyping the Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a

See [1] "Ancient links between Siberians and Native Americans revealed by subtyping the Y chromosome haplogroup Q1a" which is a new article in the Journal of Human Genetics. "Q1a*-MEH2 likely traces a population migration originating in Northeast Siberia across the Bering Strait." However, this is a relatively late connection, "Despite the low coalescence age of haplogroup Q1a3*-M346, which is estimated in South Siberia as about 4.5±1.5 thousand years ago (Ka), divergence time between these Q1a3*-M346 haplotypes and Amerindian-specific haplogroup Q1a3a-M3 is equal to 13.8±3.9?Ka, pointing to a relatively recent entry date to America. " and "Although the level of STR diversity associated with Q1a*-MEH2 is very low, this lineage appears to be closest to the extinct Palaeo-Eskimo individuals belonging to the Saqqaq culture arisen in the New World Arctic about 5.5?Ka" Dougweller (talk) 16:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I completely fail to understand the sentence "Despite the low coalescence age of haplogroup Q1a3*-M346, which is estimated in South Siberia as about 4.5±1.5 thousand years ago (Ka), divergence time between these Q1a3*-M346 haplotypes and Amerindian-specific haplogroup Q1a3a-M3 is equal to 13.8±3.9?Ka, pointing to a relatively recent entry date to America." СЛУЖБА (talk) 23:27, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Connection between Haplogroup Q and the Huns?

Is there any connection between this YDNA and the ancient Hun tribes, or any research? I only hold layman's understanding but I can't help but notice from the map that this marker is more prevalent within Afghanistan and Hungary/the Carpathian Basin than their surrounding areas, and both of these places were invaded by different(?) steppe peoples known as Huns/Hunas/etc. around 400AD, with Attila and his Huns in Europe, and the Hephthalites/Sveta Huna/White Huns and other Xionites/Hunas in South Asia, respectively.

The article also mentions that, at least in some tribes, a large number of Pashtuns, an East Iranian ethnic group not often associated with later Turko-Mongol movements into the area, have Q haplo. And some Pashtun tribes such as the Ghilzai are believed to have partial Hephthalite/Huna descent.

Is there any research to support this theory, that the prevalence of Q-M242 in Afghanistan and Central Europe compared to their surroundings has a connection with Hunnic tribes? And if so should "the Hun connection" be mentioned on this page, similarly to how wiki pages on Haplogroup R1a and Haplogroup R1b both contain paragraphs referencing the Proto-Indo-Europeans?

ReformedPenal (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well I just had a re-read and there definitely WAS mention to this connection, not in South Asia but definitely with Huns and Xionites in general. Would it be appropriate to create a separate sub-header discussing this noteworthy historical connection?

ReformedPenal (talk) 03:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Hunnic-Sarmatian"

Looking over the sources for this article, there's a claim that a certain group is related to "Hunnic Sarmation culture" with an end date for their existence of 200 CE. The Huns aren't attested until 370 CE. It's sourced to "Family Tree DNA.com". Is this a reliable source? It looks very questionable to me. @MMFA:, you know something about Hunnic DNA studies. Is any of this legit?--Ermenrich (talk) 21:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, this is surprisingly decent. Yamna and Karasuks have classifications under the Q-M242 subclade... that confirms a lot of my theories. Anyways I digress. I wouldn't use it as a source here, I'd choose peer-reviewed papers since we have access to those. MMFA (talk) 22:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Haplogroup Q (Y-DNA).PNG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Map of haplogroup deleted

@CRD)';ZC)4qRxxvr: The map of the haplogroup names its sources only for the Americas, but contains data for Asia and Europe, too. If even the sources covered all areas of the map, it would still be WP:SYNTH. --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Maulucioni: Don't know if you saw my concerns stated above. I'm not the only person to see such maps as WP:OR. On Commons, we had a deletion discussion about a similar map, Commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA).PNG. The map was kept, because Commons has no rule against OR. One of the editors voting to "keep" the map said that it is "original research". Another editor said it was made through a "creative process", which is just another word for OR. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:41, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The haplogroup maps are intended to represent the content of the corresponding article. The maps I have created are based on multiple references, especially the articles in the List of Y-chromosome haplogroups in populations of the world. The maps can be improved or they can be replaced by better ones, but they should not be erased because there seems to be a mood of censorship against genetic anthropology and any maps that graph it, so I suggest being vigilant. I made this map in 2010 and have not reviewed it since, so I hope to review it soon to see if it needs any corrections or updates.--Maulucioni (talk) 02:51, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Maulucioni: I don't think that there is such a thing as a "mood of censorship", but there is verifiability as one of basic principles of WP. A map contains information for each region shown, and so the sources for each region have to be provided. This is even more important because such maps are often used or misused or even manipulated in order to prove some political claim. For instance, older versions of Bashkirs (before August 26) used a map of R1b to show "Bashkorostan as a genetic isolate". I don't say that the map of R1b was wrong, nor do I say that this kind of information or these maps should be suppressed. I only say that they should be well sourced because the information contained can be extremely sensitive. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:26, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rsk6400: The sources are all in the article. Please point out any discrepancies between the map and the data + sources that would invalidate the map. May I ask why you have left the haplogroup maps for H, L, N, and O alone? --Hr8WDHUABYGjW (talk) 10:20, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hr8WDHUABYGjW: WP:BURDEN says, The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. You might also like to look at WP:IC. You already read my answer to your question at Commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG. --Rsk6400 (talk) 11:43, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rsk6400: Arbitrarily picking and choosing which maps to remove sounds like bad editing. I ask why you, after being informed of your inconsistency, haven't removed the maps for H, L, N, and O yet, like a police man who shuts down a young girl's lemonade stand for not having a license to sell lemonade yet deliberately ignores all the other unlicensed lemonade stands scattered across town. The map is @Maulucioni:'s, so I hope he might have a master file that cites the sources. Hr8WDHUABYGjW (talk) 12:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Maulucioni: The map of Haplogroup H (Y-DNA)‎ has the additional problem that it was manipulated by LenguaMapa, confirmed sockpuppet of WorldCreaterFighter. --Rsk6400 (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have reviewed the map of Haplogroup H. Next I will review and update the map of Q.--Maulucioni (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of content pertaining to Latin America

I removed these paragraphs from the article:

Extended content

As a result of five centuries of wide-scale intermarriage, "mestizaje", between Native Americans and Europeans, today in Mesoamerica and South America the frequencies of Q-M242 (mostly M3) among the whole male population of each country are lower than Tribal/Mayan populations, but nonetheless run far higher than in the population of North America. Also the second most Native American prevalent haplosubclade of R1b(M269) is found in both the American (Indigenous) population and is the most common Y-chromosome haplosubclade among European males (especially those who descend from those nations who colonized the Americas) leads to what may be a Native American male inherited trait to be labeled, incorrectly, as a European one.^[1] Based on the data above, the average frequency in the whole male population of Mesoamerica and South America is estimated to be about 18%. However, extrapolating for the entirety of Latin America would lead to extreme errors as the overall studies sample sizes are far too small and do not account for genetic drift. Further, they are based on the smallest ancient dataset (corpses) in adequate condition available for any race on the planet.^{[citation needed]} To point out, this skews any analysis towards a more European proportion. This also ignores the recent R1b(M269) misattribution.^{[citation needed]}

I do not find evidence in Haak et al. stating that Latin American males inherited haplogroup clades of R1b from Native Americans.

The second paragraph removed appears to be original research, like the one preceding it. Hunan201p (talk) 16:22, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Haak, Wolfgang; Lazaridis, Iosif; Patterson, Nick; Rohland, Nadin; Mallick, Swapan; Llamas, Bastien; Brandt, Guido; Nordenfelt, Susanne; Harney, Eadaoin; Stewardson, Kristin; Fu, Qiaomei; Mittnik, Alissa; Bánffy, Eszter; Economou, Christos; Francken, Michael; Friederich, Susanne; Pena, Rafael Garrido; Hallgren, Fredrik; Khartanovich, Valery; Khokhlov, Aleksandr; Kunst, Michael; Kuznetsov, Pavel; Meller, Harald; Mochalov, Oleg; Moiseyev, Vayacheslav; Nicklisch, Nicole; Pichler, Sandra L.; Risch, Roberto; Rojo Guerra, Manuel A.; Roth, Christina; Szécsényi-Nagy, Anna; Wahl, Joachim; Meyer, Matthias; Krause, Johannes; Brown, Dorcas; Anthony, David; Cooper, Alan; Alt, Kurt Werner; Reich, David (11 June 2015). "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-Europeanlanguages in Europe". Nature. 522 (7555): 207–211. arXiv:1502.02783. Bibcode:2015Natur.522..207H. doi:10.1038/nature14317. PMC 5048219. PMID 25731166.

Excess

@Wikiuser1314: Hi, it is regarding these changes. Isn't it excessive to discuss about the origin of haplogroups P and K in an article about Q. I believe that much detail should be in those respective articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:30, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Fylindfotberserk: Hi, yeah on a second thought you are right, thats unnecessary there. I initially tried to correct the paragraph regarding P and ANE, but thats better to be moved in the correct article. Thanks! Regards.–Wikiuser1314 (talk) 12:36, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks and welcome

. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:40, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Use of term "Indian" to refer to Indigenous South Americans

Indigenous South Americans do not self-identify as "Indians". Usage of the term "Indian" to refer to Indigenous Americans is a phenomenon very specific to the United States. The term "Indian" (or the Spanish form "indio") is extremely offensive in most parts of South America and should always be avoided. Furthermore, the term "South American Indian" is confusing as it could refer to Indian (South Asian) people living in South America. 69.143.146.97 (talk) 18:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Haak, Wolfgang; Lazaridis, Iosif; Patterson, Nick; Rohland, Nadin; Mallick, Swapan; Llamas, Bastien; Brandt, Guido; Nordenfelt, Susanne; Harney, Eadaoin; Stewardson, Kristin; Fu, Qiaomei; Mittnik, Alissa; Bánffy, Eszter; Economou, Christos; Francken, Michael; Friederich, Susanne; Pena, Rafael Garrido; Hallgren, Fredrik; Khartanovich, Valery; Khokhlov, Aleksandr; Kunst, Michael; Kuznetsov, Pavel; Meller, Harald; Mochalov, Oleg; Moiseyev, Vayacheslav; Nicklisch, Nicole; Pichler, Sandra L.; Risch, Roberto; Rojo Guerra, Manuel A.; Roth, Christina; Szécsényi-Nagy, Anna; Wahl, Joachim; Meyer, Matthias; Krause, Johannes; Brown, Dorcas; Anthony, David; Cooper, Alan; Alt, Kurt Werner; Reich, David (11 June 2015). "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-Europeanlanguages in Europe". Nature. 522 (7555): 207–211. arXiv:1502.02783. Bibcode:2015Natur.522..207H. doi:10.1038/nature14317. PMC 5048219. PMID 25731166.

[1]