Talk:Harla people

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harla are semitic according to most historians now[edit]

the harla are viewed as semitic people not cush so unless you can find a source disputing that they are cush than ill have to add that they were semites. by the way ulrich just lacks evidence connecting hararis with harla but its been mainstream that the harla themselves were semities, it could however be dismissed that they were not harari though based on their language. i can see the darod and ogadenis being connected to harla because they occupied most of that region. Baboon43 (talk) 03:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't state anywhere in that Ezekiel Gebissa passage that most historians view the Harla as Semitic speakers. What it says is that the Harla were "Semitic-speaking". And this claim, per its footnote 14, appears to be sourced to Azais, Chambard and Huntingford. However, these are the same authorities which, according to Braukämper, actually indicate that the builders of the Harla-linked structures in Haraghe were ancestral to the Somali ("proto-Somali"). Braukämper also concedes that the linguistic proof in support of Semitic language affinities for the Harla is lacking. Further, again per Braukämper, modern traditions likewise associate the Harla with the Darod and the Ogaden Somali sub-clan (c.f. [1]). Linguistic research by Enrico Cerulli on Af-Harlaad in turn points to connections with Cushitic dialects spoken by the Yibir and Midgan ([2]). That's the status quo. Middayexpress (talk) 07:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
By the way, there's no such thing as a medieval "Cush" people. The Kingdom of Kush was an ancient kingdom in the northern Sudan/southern Egypt area, not in the Horn region. It is distinct from the modern speakers of the Cushitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family. The linguistic term "Cushitic" was actually coined only a few centuries ago and as a Biblical reference (as was Semitic, incidentally). Middayexpress (talk) 07:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I believe in one of the discussions you brought up Jeberti people whom are classified as habesha and semitic on wiki so somalis descended from semities in that case. The so called somali forefathers are all semites therefore cush somali have done more to push semitics at the top of the hierechy then semities themselves..this is mainly due to the connection of islam coming from arabia but the recent emergence of "kush push" as i like to call it is aiming to isolate somalis from habesha semitics whom are arab & jewish mix..regardless, religion and language plays a major role in classification Baboon43 (talk) 22:37, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Actually, the Jabarti I referred to was Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti, forefather of the Darod clan. I was not referring to any Ethiosemitic speakers, who in any case have nothing to do with the Sheikh. Ethiosemitic speakers in Ethiopia are also little different from the Cushitic speakers. This is because they too were originally Cushitic speakers, before later adopting Semitic languages from migrants (c.f. [3]). Hence, the Sidama substratum in the Harari language. At any rate, in future, per WP:TPG#YES, try and keep discussions focused upon the actual topic. Middayexpress (talk) 18:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
yea your not refering to ethio semitic but your still refering to semitic arab am i right? ethiopians and arabs are called semitic for a on topic you seem to dismiss harla of being semitic when i gave you a source thats why im bringing this up..they could be originally cushitic but semitics may later gain the upper hand and change them im not sure why your going centuries back just so you can claim well they are originally cush..the people that you claim were originally cush were not the same as habesha today even if what you say is true..cultures religion and influence change over time. those in the past would not be recognized today by those in the present Baboon43 (talk) 21:11, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
This is mostly not on topic, but I'll quickly address it this one time. I never claimed that Ethiopians are "cush". I have actually told you several times elsewhere that "cush" is a reference to an ancient kingdom in the Sudan area, the Kingdom of Kush. The Cushitic languages were named after the Biblical character Cush (Bible), not that Sudanese region or its people. It's important not to confuse the two. At any rate, Habesha are referred to as Semitic speakers because they speak Semitic languages today. But those Ethiosemitic languages (that's the actual name of the Ethiopian Semitic languages, not something I made up) all have Cushitic substrata. These substrata represent lingering traces of the languages that their ancestors originally spoke before adopting the Semitic languages of the migrants. By the way, Cushitic and Semitic are both branches of the Afro-Asiatic language family, so they both ultimately descend from a common ancestral language called Proto-Afro-Afroasiatic (c.f. [4]). Middayexpress (talk) 21:30, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

recent source[edit]

i have told you that they were thought to be cushitic but new RS has done research on their language and thus labeled them semitic. i adivse you to get recent sources that mention their cushitic language or it shouldnt be included..aethiopica is extremely old and even on the section of that source it said that more research is still needed Baboon43 (talk) 17:03, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, no linguistic studies modern or otherwise have been done on the Harla language. This is obviously because it is an extinct language, with no spoken or written traces of it left (unlike, say, the ancient Egyptian language, which can be and has been analysed because there are many written records of it in existence). Only linguistic research on modern languages spoken by various groups called the Harla have been conducted by Enrico Cerulli (not by Encyclopedia Aethiopica). These tongues showed affiliations with the Cushitic dialects of the Yibir et al.. If actual research on the extinct Harla language is done, then we can of course add it as well. But at the moment, this has not yet come to pass. Middayexpress (talk) 17:22, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Find a source that explicitly states that harla spoke cushitic like i did for semitic. Baboon43 (talk) 05:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The Encylopedia Aethiopica does. This has been discussed at length before, too. And unlike the assertions of Semitic connections, it is based on actual linguistic research by Cerulli (c.f. [5]). Middayexpress (talk) 15:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

ahmed harla perhaps[edit]

"Ahmad b. Ibrahim was born around 1506 in the region of Funyan-Bira and was most probably ethnically affiliated to the Harala people" [6] Baboon43 (talk) 17:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

That self-published source attributes that speculation to Braukämper. However, a Google Books search terms up only turns up that pdf [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 18:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Harla presence in Sanaag[edit]

The Harla appear to have been present in Yubbe, a small town in the northern Sanaag region of Somalia. It has already been established that they had a presence in the area, but it's nevertheless especially interesting to narrow that down to specific settlements. The British explorer John Hanning Speke described having seen various tumuli there, and some of the descriptions he left sound a lot like the Harla graves. Of these, he reported that one contained "a hollow compartment propped up by beams of timber, at the bottom of which, buried in the ground, were several earthenware pots, some leaden coins, a ring of gold such as the Indian Mussulman women wear in their noses, and various other miscellaneous property."[1] Harla graves likewise typically contained pottery, coins and jewelry [8]. What's special about the location is that the northern Sanaag area (particularly around Maydh, which is not far from Yubbe) is regarded as an early center of dispersal of the Somali people. Middayexpress (talk) 18:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

thats up for debate but sanag and most of somalia were influenced by these "harla". archaeologists are currently investigating the area between harar and dire dawa which they believe was the kingdom of harla in 13th century []...the people who were mostly active and in the front ahmeds wars now occupy areas stretching from island of lake zway to the question is who are the proto harari speakers west of harar, their tribes and what connection do they have with harla..after the oromo invasion into semitic blocks around harar and west of it the continuing belt of semitics was futuh al habasa the imam attacks the island and i guess when the adalites lost the war the harla stayed there forming a proto harari language..thats the only explanation since zay and harar are miles away..also since many ethnicities participated in the war..the proto hararis may have formed another ethnic group like hargaya instead of harla Baboon43 (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

chinese coin found in harla kingdom[edit]

if any editor would like to make a separate harla kingdom or add this info in this's the source..[9] Baboon43 (talk) 20:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Not a distinct ethnic group[edit]

According to modern sources, the Harla people are actual a mix of Somalis and Harari people.[10][11][12] This would explain their association with Harar and other Somali cites. This would also explain why the Harla clan of the Somalis that has a unique dialect. AcidSnow (talk) 13:42, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting link there: "A study of clan names and of oral traditions shows that these Harla very probably represent the Islamized populations of Harari and Somali origin who partially survived the Oromo conquerors of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries." This is consistent with Enrico Cerulli's linguistic work. Middayexpress (talk) 19:07, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
It makes no sense to say a mix of harari and somali stock but ill add it in anyway. We know the darod clan's origin are harla and sheikhaal clan claim harari descent and that issaq forefather had a harla wife that was incorrectly labeled habeshi. What sets Darod apart from the other clans is that they do not claim descent from Irir Samaale but from al jabarti who is linked to harla tribe, which tells me that Darod-Harla later assimilated with the somalis thorugh intermarriage. The Harla-Harari on the otherhand partially assimilated with Arabs and were able to keep the harla language somewhat intact as they remained in the harar plateau. The timeline for harla disintegration would be as the following: abadir arrival leads the arab assimilaiton of harla, somali assimilation might be after this or before, and then the 16th century assimilation by oromo. Kiziotherapy (talk) 02:10, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Harla Notables[edit]

I have added Mahfuz (harla-harari) & Nur (harla-somali) based on this source [13]. Any questions or concerns please contact me on my talk page. Thanx. Kiziotherapy (talk) 23:51, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Naming of regions of Ethiopia and Somalia[edit]

I believe the harla were an ancient group that have partially survived in the form Harari. Its been shown they have a had a long war with the speakers of Ge'ez. These groups both have dilemmas currently facing them in the academic world. It has not been proven that the Geez tribe existed whereas it has been proven the Geez language existed. The opposite is true for the Harla, who have been proven to exist as a people by references like futuh al habasha but their language has not been clarified. In the Harari/Harla language Gey means country/town which is behind naming of the Gurage and Hargeisa. I suspect Zay in the Harla language to mean land near water or something of that effect. This is in my opinion the naming behind Zaila and the linguistically similar with the Harari, Zay people inhabiting an island. I believe Zar in the Harari language refers to river. I found a source that claims a tribe claims harla in zaila, it says the following ---Among the Zeila there exists one tribe, calling itself the Harla, that claims to be descended from the old people-- [14]--

Which begs the question of towns such as Harardhere, Hargeisa or Mogadishu have any thing to do with Harla people. Dish from mogadishu is land or ground in the Harari language. I have also read somewhere that Benadiri have a dialect similar to the Harari language, which could mean Harla may have corrupted their language at some point. If the Harla led the Adal sultanate then it would make sense of their vast influence. It may be similar to the mongolians influencing vast regions. Queen Arawelo is said to be harla according to this source. [15]. Arawelo may or may not be Gudit who had devastated axum, if she is however this war between east and west would go back a millennium Kiziotherapy (talk) 10:45, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Firstly, Queen Arawelo is a folktale character, she isn't real. At least there's no proof she was. The currently established historical narrative on the history of the Somali Peninsula is known via comparing oral traditions collected from all over Greater Somalia during the 18th to 20th centuries, archaeological & linguistic study (which are still on-going) and, very importantly, written historical sources on the region from peoples such as Arabs, the Chinese, Greco-Romans and sometimes even literate natives of the Peninsula. None of these things remotely proves Arawelo existed; she's merely a folktale, as far as I know. She's mainly just propped up as a definitely real figure by some modern Feminists who have an obvious agenda to do so. Why do you think she's never mentioned in books like this or this when they outline the history of Somalia?
Secondly, Hargeisa's name really has nothing to do with "Harlas" and it's a relatively recently founded settlement. It didn't exist in 1331 when Ibn Battuta visited Zeila and Mogadishu and spoke of the "Berber" inhabitants of the former and "Berber" Sultan of the latter ("Berber" or "Berberi" or "Barbara" was the Medieval "Arab" word for Somalis and perhaps also Afars and connoted, as Ibn Battuta describes, a dark-skinned people who herded camels, goats and sheep (pastoralists) and came from the earlier "Barbaroi" term used by the Greco-Romans to describe the inhabitants of 1st century port-towns in Northern Somalia like Moslyon. The earliest Greek source) and didn't even exist when the Futuh al-Habasha was written in the 16th century or when Harar was written about by Richard F. Burton in the 1850s; the Harla didn't exist anymore at this point in time (as non-assimilates into other ethnic groups) otherwise all the scholars who'd been studying Somalis by the 1800s and 1900s would've, obviously, noticed them (like Enrico Cerulli). I have no idea about "Harardhere" but I doubt it. And finally, Mogadishu comes from, as far as we know, "Maq'ad-i-Shah" (Seat of the Shah) which is Persian/Farsi and alludes to it's early Iranian influences. The only non-Somali people known to have historically inhabited it are people of Southeast African Bantu speaker descent mostly brought there via the Slave Trade and Benadiris who are a community of diverse origins (Iranian, Somali, Arab, Southeast African Bantu speakers etc.) and they speak a dialect of Somali called Coastal/Benadiri Somali. None of this is remotely debatable.
You're really just turning up here with some rather odd theories contradicting what is common knowledge and backed up by the historical sources, archaeology and linguistics on these matters. Wikipedia is not a forum for sharing your own beliefs (No Original Research) sometimes based on a poor understanding of the sources (not realizing Arawelo was a folktale, for example) or dubious sources or what have you. I recommend you do some deeper reading and just leave these pages be. Awale-Abdi (talk) 04:17, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not going to bother responding to your theories anymore but don't remove sources on articles because you don't like it. Kiziotherapy (talk) 04:36, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Theories? Where did you read a theory above. I simply stated facts and shared sources (only got opinionated about you towards the end). You're the guy who couldn't even realize that Arawelo is a folktale and thought she was a "Harla" and real and kept using "I believe" in his sentences (when did I ever write "I believe"? I didn't because, unlike you, nothing I write is really opinionated and is based on the evidence). Don't reply to me if you wish (I prefer it that way) but leave these pages alone or I'll go to the Administrators in a heart-beat. Awale-Abdi (talk) 04:43, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Something to understand about the Harla (for Kiziotherapy and anyone interested)[edit]

There is no concrete evidence that they spoke either a Semitic or Cushitic language. In this very page there is an author mentioned (Enrico Cerulli, a well respected and now deceased scholar of Ethiopian and Somali studies) who found some indicators that their language was related to Somali, for example. But, others such as Ulrich Braukamper will posit that they may have spoken a Semitic language or simply assert that they did but, as Braukamper admits himself (read his book if you wish), he has no real proof for this claim. The thing is... The only known historical sources on Harla, to my knowledge, are the Futuh al-Habasha (commissioned by Ahmed Ibn Ibrahim during the 16th century CE) and perhaps also some Late Medieval Abyssinian sources. None of these sources illuminate very much about this group. I.e. the Futuh mainly just establishes that they fought in the army of the Adal like various Somali clans (Habar Magadle, Harti et al.) and alludes to nothing about their language, last I checked.

Most authors who've written on this subject thus mostly base their claims on their own conjecture, perhaps a few oral traditions (such as Hararis claiming the ruined structures around the Hararghe area were built by the Harla) and that's all well and good but one needs to understand that the sources on this subject contradict each other (Semitic or Cushitic or what have you) and we will never concretely know what language branch they spoke within unless we find archaeological evidence like inscriptions in the Harla language itself (referred to as being written in a language named as such by the authors) using the Ge'ez or Arabic scripts or what have you or if we find new historical records from over 300 years ago from Arabs, Abyssinians or frankly anyone illuminating something on their origins. Anything other than this is a modern author simply writing down their own opinions on the matter and they can and are contradicted by sometimes earlier or contemporary authors. Nothing is decided here and until new evidence (like what I mentioned prior) surfaces; anyone who tells you this issue is settled doesn't know what they're talking about or, in my humble opinion, has an agenda. I once told Kiziotherapy that I personally think they spoke a Semitic language but that's my opinion not what the historical evidence shows clearly. Wikipedia is not for posting what one believes but trying to neutrally share facts or the closest one can find of the facts. Thank you, Awale-Abdi (talk) 03:26, 6 July 2016

Read it again. Ulrich says no data available linguistically for harla being in the carcar mountains NOT gurageland, zay, and harar because that's already been confirmed to be Harla. Harla controlled the Adal sultanate. Mahfuz, Garad Abun and Ahmed were all Harla just read the source[16] I can take this up to higher authorities for review but it wont look good for you so the ball is in your court. Accept the fact they were semitic and we can move on OR restore my edits on the Adal language. Kiziotherapy (talk) 04:14, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, read my reply to you in the above section and finally... You read it again too. He concedes that he can't prove for sure that they speak a Semitic language, and he can't. There are various groups that survived to the 19th to 20th centuries (perhaps even now) who call themselves "Harla" and they speak different languages (Somali, Oromo, Afar etc.) probably because they're assimilates and what languages they speak likely can't help us much and again; what is so difficult for you to understand about the following:
Anything other than this is a modern author simply writing down their own opinions on the matter and they can and are contradicted by sometimes earlier or contemporary authors. Nothing is decided here and until new evidence (like what I mentioned prior) surfaces
If you have the work of authors who found "Harla inscriptions" that they can prove are in this language (I.e. the author of "Harla text/inscription" themselves claiming this) or if you've found a nearly 500 year old document like the Futuh making their linguistic nature obvious; you're just citing authors divulging their opinions for the most part and they've been contradicted by others. Also, I don't understand why you're so fixated on this... I'm not saying you can't have "Semitic" written on this page but that it is dishonest to all the evidence and sources on this matter to act like it is concretely Semitic and settled matter, it isn't. Someone who encounters this page will read "Semitic or Cushitic" and read the history section and then consult various secondary and primary sources themselves and come to their own conclusions. This is an encyclopedia not a place to a post what you feel is better. I'm getting quite tired of this discussion, frankly. You're making an issue out of this when I've already offered you a compromise that was always present in this page prior to your showing up (that "Semitic or Cushitic / Cushitic or Semitic" was written down). Awale-Abdi (talk) 04:24, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
No compromise because "Cushitic" is original research. If you want to be neutral the adal sultanate should say Harla official language but your against that but here you want to claim harla as somali with original research so which one is it? Kiziotherapy (talk) 04:42, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
You aren't even comprehending what I'm writing. I said I personally believe the Harla spoke a Semitic language (Somali is a Cushitic language) so no; I never claimed they were Somali. I don't care what language some dead ethnic-or-tribal group spoke, frankly. But read the page's history section:
Field research by Enrico Cerulli identified a modern group called the "Harla" living amongst the Somali in the region between the cities of Harar and Jijiga. Encyclopaedia Aethiopica suggests that this population "may be a remnant group of the old [Harla], that integrated into the Somali genealogical system, but kept a partially separate identity by developing a language of their own." Cerulli published some data on this Harla community's language, called af Harlaad, which resembled the Somali languages spoken by the Yibir and Madhiban low-caste groups.[2]
The source is even shared in the page (Encyclopedia Aethiopica. It does say just that, more or less, I read it a long time ago) and don't be disingenuous by claiming this doesn't say "Cushitic" (unless you want to write down "Somali-related" language which is more directly what it says and what Cushitic means in this context anyway). They found a group many years ago, when Cerulli was still alive, living around where the Harla originally did and assumed they preserved their language and found that it was strange language similar to the derivatives of Somali spokn by the Yibir and Madhiban. Given how little we know about the Harla (as I stated and outlined above) this theory is seriously about as valid as Braukamper's. Authors like Cerulli believed these people were Cushitic/Somali speakers and "Proto-Somali" or what have you. But no; I don't personally believe they spoke a Cushitic language. Don't misrepresent me by claiming so. Awale-Abdi (talk) 04:56, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, there's absolutely no evidence that "Harla" was the official language of the Adal. None... Not in the Futuh, not in other Medieval Arabic sources, not in any inscriptions from the time, not in sources from the Abyssinians of the day. Some modern author believing that's the case or your own opinions don't count without evidence. If Harla was really the "official" language of the Adal (as in, it's written and court language) we would've found clear texts of it and the Futuh would have been written in it. Even if someone assumes "Harari" is the "Harla" language, for example, Harari was not the official Adal language (no proof for this, anyway) but the official language of the later Sultanate/Emirate of Harar (they are not the same thing). Your fixation on writing down "Harla" as the official language is what clearly makes you seem non-neutral. Awale-Abdi (talk) 04:59, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Notable Harlans[edit]

Okay, man... You might think I have something against you because I keep doing away some of your edits but please understand that this is not about you but about the claims you post. Arawelo isn't real and the folkloric story originally just says she's a Somali woman who rose up and so on so forth. But again, this is irrelevant. Read her page's sources (their titles):

Hanghe, Folktales of Somalia (Uppsala, Sweden: Somali Academy of Science and Arts 1988) Mohamed Hassan. Sheekooyinkii Boqoradii Araweelo Shafi Said, The Legendary Cruelty Affi, Ladan, Arraweelo: A role Model for Somali Women

Three of those are about folktales (the first three). She's a folkloric/mythological figure only found among Somalis. Posting that she was a "Harla" makes it sound like she was a real person with ties to certain people, she's not and she didn't (other than being tied to whoever might have made her up). And Jaberti/the Darod clan founder is thought to have been an Arabian based on his genealogy via two different sources, this is common wisdom. Any claims that he was a "Harla" are new (very modern) and baseless (same goes for the Arawelo claims). And there's nothing in the historical record about Nur ibn Mujahid being a Harla but if it'll appease you; add him back but not the other two. Sorry but adding them makes zero sense. Awale-Abdi (talk) 05:47, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

We add whatever the source says nothing else so its not up to you to choose and pick. Darod Sheikh was a harla with arab ancestry that's the tradition, he wasn't arab himself. What your doing is called censorship. I never added original research. you can request a 3rd opinion Kiziotherapy (talk) 06:06, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
    • ^ John Hanning Speke, What led to the discovery of the source of the Nile, (Blackwood: 1864), p.68.