Talk:Himarë/Archive 2
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| Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Teaching in Albanian forbidden
Find sources or the statement goes.--Ptolion (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- How about this (Albania and the Albanians: selected articles and letters 1903-1944 By M. Edith Durham, Harry Hodgkinson, Bejtullah D. Destani page 84 last paragraph [1])?--sulmues (talk) 17:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's not so much a question of sources as it is a question of relevance. Even if we accept (for the sake of argument only) that the teaching of Albanian was forbidden, what does this have to do with Himara? This is classic POV-pushing by insinuation. Keep it Fake is using this to try to imply that the reason the Himariotes speak Greek is because Albanian was forbidden. Even he can't argue with the fact that the Himariotes actually speak Greek, so he tried the next best thing: Ok, maybe they speak Greek, but that doesn't mean they really aren't Albanian at heart. There is no need to cater to any of this nonsense. I don't care if he brings 50 sources, unless he can specifically tie the fact that teaching of Albanian was forbidden it to Himara (which he won't be able to), out it goes anyway. If he uses IPs to edit-war over it, that's OK: We got WP:RPP for that. Athenean (talk) 05:58, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- The truth of Himariots speaking both languages stems especially because the Albanian language was forbidden in writing during the Ottoman Empire. No Albanian documents could be crafted during that period, whereas Greek could be used, especially in the 19th century when Greece obtained independence. The Himariots were first and foremost maritime people, employed in international trade. They needed to use the Greek language for their contracts, deals and so on to craft their documents, bills of lading and the like. Greek was spoken and learned in the church (which had not obtained the Autocephaly yet) . There is plenty of evidence that Albanian was prohibited during Ottoman Empire and I brought it above. There is no Albanian POV pushing, just a little bit of knowledge of the History of Albania. --sulmues (talk) 17:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Himaraunion.com
On the bottom of the page we read
- Copyright (C) Ένωση Χειμαρριωτών "Η ΧΕΙΜΑΡΡΑ", Κολοκοτρώνη 44, Αθήνα
meaning that the website is not the official website of the town or the municipality but the website of a private association--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Can you tell me in which page of this tourist guide [[2]] you read that? Actually it says 'a publication of the town of Himara' on p. 25. Do not comfuse the website himaraunion with the tourist guide. Thank you.Alexikoua (talk) 11:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I see you insist on blind reverts, no matter what this document clearly states. Suppose that's what you mean you claimed you are revert read [[3]], as per wp:idontlikeit.Alexikoua (talk) 11:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I won't reply to the usual accusations, but I'll focus on the discussion. What I pasted is found in the bottom of the website himaraunion.com. And the pdf in that guide can't even be opened because it is part of a damaged archive. Also change the link because most of the readers wouldn't want to download a corrupted file.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:03, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I have no problem to open it, it works fine. The pdf file is zipped, you need to download winzip first. If you encounter similar problems you can kindly ask for some advice in the relevant discussion page. Making changes/removals without even reading the document as you claim isn't a constructive strategy.Alexikoua (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua, I have opened the archive with both winrar and winzip and in both cases I get the "archive damaged or file corrupted" message. My objections haven't been about the document but about the labeling of himaraunion. You should also be more careful when labeling a website and not the file itself because that isn't helpful and accurate.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:42, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll explained it simple: there is a tourist guide published by 'Bashkia e Himares' and this guide's online version is available το download from himaraunion.com. This doesn't mean that it's published by himaraunion.com. As far I see inside there is no himaranion.com stuff. Last page says: U Botua nga Bashkia e Himares/Έκδοση Δήμου Χειμάρρας.Alexikoua (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Split
This page needs to be split into Himarë (town) and Himarë (region), as the article is referring to both. As a result there are many ambiguities starting from the language. For instance Dhermi and Himare are bilingual, however the other 6 villages speak Albanian only. As a result with a careful work the article can be split into Himara town (municipality) and Himara region. --Sulmues talk 16:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
A small correction is that of 7 villages, 3 of those speak Greek and those are Himara; Dhermi (gr. Drimadhes) and Palasa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhermijorgji (talk • contribs) 13:20, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it be much easier to just say that only Albanian is spoken in those six villages. I always say that one big article is better than ten stubs.--Ptolion (talk) 17:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Disruption barrage
It seems that the user Stupidus Maximus has launched a nationalistic barrage in a variety of Greek-Albanian articles, from his very start in his wikicareer. Nothing more than disruptive edits, without discussions & edit summaries. Himara is the latest victim of this situation: adding a highly questionable book of 1800 [[4]]... in order to support his pov.
On the other hand refuses every kind of discussion [[5]][[6].Alexikoua (talk) 06:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
A notice has been posted in Wikipedia:Albanian_and_Greek_wikipedians_cooperation_board/Notification_boardAlexikoua (talk) 06:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- One edit is disruption? Stupidus Maximus (talk) 08:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Himara
This paragraph
- Himarë (also Albanian: Himara, from Greek: Χειμάρρα, Himarra) is a bilingual town and region in southern Albania, part of the District of Vlorë. Apart from the town of Himara, the region consists of 7 other villages: Dhërmi, Palasë/Palasa, Vuno/Vouno, Pilur/Pilouri, Qeparo/Kiparon, Kudhës/Koudesi, and Ilias/Liates
- is totally wrong. Himara is also known as Bregu, and comprises: Himarë, Palasë, Dhërmi, Gjilekë, Vuno, Iljas, Pilur, Kudhës and Qeparo (ancient Cleparo). The territorial extension of the term has varied historically. In the XVth century, 'Himara' comprised the regions of SW Albania, today's Himarë, all Kurvelesh and Tepelena, with roughly 50 villages. In the XVIII century, H. extended from the Kepi i Gjuhëzës (Capo Linguetta) in Karaburun, to Butrint, spaning 150 km. During the XIX century, the territorial extention of HImarë u ngushtua në atë të sotmen.
In 904, the region was incorporated in the Bulgarian Empire of Simeon (893 - 927). In 937, the Normans crucaders landed in Himara, in their campaign for the East. The byzantine emperor Alexius III Comnenus, gived to the Venetians in 1190, privileges over the region. At the end of XIII century, Charles of Anjou comprised the region in the Regnum Albaniae, but in 1275 the byzantine Michael VIII Palaeologus took it from the Angevins. In 1431, Himara was comprised in the Sandjak of Arvanid (Albania) as a separate nahiye. In 31.08.1481, the himariotes under the guidance of Kostandin Muzaka, attacked... Stupidus Maximus (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Himara also known as Bregu? and Qeparo ancient Cleparo? I feel you need references for this. The territorial changes of the region can nicely be added in 'Geography' & second paragraph in various history sections.Alexikoua (talk) 18:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Himara is not Bregu. In fact, Bregu (eng. Riviera)(meaning Ionian Riviera)extents from Palasa to Nivica. Therefore Himara is the half Northern part of Bregu, otherwise referred as Upper Riviera (Bregu i Siperm) as compared to Lower Riviera (Bregu i Poshtem). Dhermijorgji (talk) 13:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC) (talk) 15:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
dhermijorgji
- Himariotes, Albanian:
Antoine Augustin Bruzen de La Martinière: Le grand dictionnaire géographique et critique, Volume 2. Gosse, 1730. p. 576 [7]
Epirus: l'Albanie [10]
Les Chimariotes sont les plus renommés d'entre les Albanais pour leur caractère sauvage et leur perfidie. [11]
The Edinburgh new philosophical journal, Volume 46 [12]
The Greece of the Greeks, Volume 1 [13]
Greece and the Levant; or, Diary of a summer's excursion in 1834 ..., Volume 1 By Richard Burgess [14]
[17] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stupidus Maximus (talk • contribs) 09:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Can you please avoid using this 18th-19th century stuff that doesn't meet wp:rs standarts.Alexikoua (talk) 12:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
A town that is predominantly ethnic Greek..if this is true how come they never manage to win elections or even achieve a minimum to have an independent administration?? LOL, nothing more biased than this article!! Etimo (talk) 09:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Lazarat
It seems that we have numerous spa visits this season, latest edits of Lazarat90 were reverted after user was blocked for disruptive editing (especially here). By the way I have found the logo of Himara municipality, ispired by the mythological beast Chimaira (Chimera (mythology)), the name of the city, I'll add it the next hours.Alexikoua (talk) 05:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
obvious vandalism
Stuff like this [18] is opportunistic, drive-by vandalism by IPs. No problems here. Athenean (talk) 05:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Villages
It's my understanding there are only 7 villages, so I removed the village that's not it in the region. Also, since this is the English wikipedia, we should avoid terms like "fshat". Athenean (talk) 22:13, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- Notified User talk:Shikuesi3 who had made that edit. I really like your new style of bringing a revert to the talk page. --Sulmues Let's talk 22:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
conspiracy theories and prophecying using POV sources
Reverted this edit [19], as POV-pushing and WP:CRYSTAL. These are well-known conspiratorial canards propagated in nationalist circles. Not surprisingly the sources used are highly pov (e.g. www.shqiperia.com). As for the second sentence, it is a perfect example of trying to predict the future, gone per WP:CRYSTAL. Athenean (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
source
Undid this POV edit [20]. Just because a source is offline doesn't mean it's not valid. Just go to any library near you. Athenean (talk) 18:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
As I see the same quote is also present in this book.Alexikoua (talk) 20:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- The second source about the predominant ethnic Greek character of Himara states that in this sentence:
- And so, in October 2003 we set out from Vlora on our way to Saranda following on the
track of the mysterious Code of Zuli...In the mountain town of Himara, where the population
predominantly consists of members of the ethnic Greek minority, one could not see any women
after nightfall.
In 2003 after nightfall one could not see women in Himara? Obviously biased, fringe, pov and makes anyone who has ever visited the town wonder if the author truly visited Himara or if she is trying to make a point, so this has to go.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- And since women don't walk out at night does this mean that it isn't a Greek populated town? Perhaps his point is that Himariotises don't like nightlife for a reason it's not specified and this is irrelevant with demogrpahics.Alexikoua (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- It means that the source is too fringe and extremely pov to the point where Himara a town whose economy is mainly based on tourism is presented as a place where women don't go out after nightfall i.e not rs. Btw please replace that book with the Slavic Journal source that is at least verifiable. Her point is part of her conviction that the kanun of laberia(or papa zhuli) still dominates the life of people regarding even nightlife, which is extremely fringe. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- And since women don't walk out at night does this mean that it isn't a Greek populated town? Perhaps his point is that Himariotises don't like nightlife for a reason it's not specified and this is irrelevant with demogrpahics.Alexikoua (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- This is insane. Urgent Anthropology is peer reviewed journal edited by a respected scholar (Zelyazhkova). It meets all the requirements of WP:RS and then some. Zjarri's reasons for removing it are ridiculous, but not surprising. I note this is the second time in two days that this user attempts to remove a source on the most ridiculous of excuses (last time around it was on the grounds that the source is "offline" [21]). In addition to being fairly transparent, this is highly dishonest and disruptive. If you think a source is unreliable, Zjarri, take it to WP:RSN. I am making a note of the pattern observed here, as it will come in handy in the future. Athenean (talk) 19:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- Women might not go out at night because they follow the Kanun of Papa Zhuli, a variant of the Kanun of Laberia, which is likely still followed in the town, and whose source no one allowed me to enter Talk:Himarë#Kanun_of_Laberia_in_the_Himare_region, although it's coming from an excellent secondary source, Ines Angjeli Murzaku. Now you have to convene that I was right. Ask for opinions onto proceding with edits of a cultural section--Sulmues (talk) 19:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
P. Spyromilios
This link works fine to me [[22]]. We have some 100 results about him [[23]]. This says where he was born: [[24]]. There are also 3 (I bet there are more if we search with alt. name forms) Googlebooks hits that mention him also [[25]].Alexikoua (talk) 07:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Ioannis Vlasis
I was talking about this guy. No hints or hits on him. Couldn't find him. Also the word "revolutionary" seems a a little bit inappropriate for a 15th century guy:) Aigest (talk) 07:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
John Vlasis makes more sense. The surname Vlashi is attested in Himara region, but not only there. It is a common name among Albanians of that time, in the North and South and even churches (ShenVlash->SaintVlash for eg). Also his name John (Gjon) makes us suppose this, while the name Gjon Vlashi is still used among Albanians. Leaving apart nationalistic claims I used the term chieftain, just like the book called this guy whatever his nationality. Hope no debates on this one. Aigest (talk) 07:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
He is also mentioned as Johanes Blasses (archaic translation from Greek) and he was from Corfu [[26]].Alexikoua (talk) 07:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
It could be also an archaic translation of the name Gjon Vlashi. Being from Corfu (although I don't see this from the sources) means nothing. There were many Albanian up to Peloponnese that time. The author of the reference (Sakeriollu) uses that term and we should use it as such. BTW it is not good to modify references. From chieftain to Greek revolutionary, and from John to Ioannis is a big step. Aigest (talk) 08:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Someone that incites a revolt can be named revolutionary. Archaic translation from Albanian? Oh come on... if you have not something specific to say please avoid misleading assumptions.Alexikoua (talk) 08:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
The Greek version of the same book uses: 'Ιωάννης Βλάσης' and 'οπλαρχηγός', which means 'revolutionary leader' [[27]]. As per wp:nc his name should be renamed to: Ioannis Vlassis (although it's not a big job, no problem to stay as John). Sakelariou often uses english equivalents in first names.Alexikoua (talk) 09:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- οπλαρχηγός doesn't mean revolutionary leader so why are you trying to change the translation?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- [[28]] More specifically 'οπλαρχηγός' is often used for the leaders of irregulars groups in the Greek War of Independence and the other Greek revolts of 19th-early 20th century (no meaning is changed).Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- This isn't the Greek War of Independence and the definition of the word is αρχηγός άτακτου στρατιωτικού σώματος i.e not a revolutionary.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- [[28]] More specifically 'οπλαρχηγός' is often used for the leaders of irregulars groups in the Greek War of Independence and the other Greek revolts of 19th-early 20th century (no meaning is changed).Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
On a related note, the name Gjon Vlashi is attested in Qeparo village here. Maybe he was from Himara region? Or maybe he had relatives in Himara region? That could explain some of the things. Anyway from the English version of the text it looks like he didn't lead Himariot troops but they acted independently. Am I right? Aigest (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes I see, I was just noting that this name was very common among the Albanians of that time even in North Albania or in Central Albania and also has been registered in Himara region itself so leaving aside his possible nationality, I find the term chieftain more appropriate. Anyway IMO it would make more sense if he was from Himara or at least a known figure in Himara. That would explain his landing and the subsequent support.Aigest (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Ded
I'm not going change it back to Dede but Alexikoua should know (to avoid in the future similar mistakes) that it isn't a surname related to any ancient Greek phonology or grammar it is just an Albanian patronymic surname. For example a descendant of Ded Gjo Luli could assume the surname Ded-e/i/o depending on the local dialect of Albanian he speaks.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Googlebooks hits is overwhelming (at a ratio of [[30]][[31]] 10:1), as per wp:nc this is the name he is known. As for the typical nationalistic orish pov, I have nothing to say (this campaign is really funny).Alexikoua (talk) 10:20, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- He? It's a she. Btw Alexikoua linguistics aren't as simple as producing folk etymologies and simplistic connections, so before labeling as orish pov my deductions you should do a bit of research regarding patronymic surnames.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
whose presence may date to antiquity?
What today's Himariots descend from 2000 year old tribe. A 2000 year continuum link is impossible for a population of 7 villages. Haha, common guys a lot of barbarian invasions in that region. Even for today's Greeks in Greece this term is not used. Leaving aside the others what happened to Slavic or Albanians attested there? Aigest (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Barnstar to Greek editors.
Ok, I think I need to explain this edit and the irony associated to it. You need to know that the last names Koleka, Gjidede, Gjikondi, Gjipali, and so on are all short forms of malesor first and last names Kole Leka, Gjin Deda, Gjin Kondi, Gjin Pali. If you find Greek explanations for these names, you have a barnstar from me. --Sulmues (talk) 19:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Blind removal
This removal, with a sarcastic pro-stalinist edit summary [[32]], is at least unacceptable. Just by typing "Spiro Koleka"+Greek in googlebooks we got [[33]] and [[34]]. It seems we've got a deletion barrage the last 12h in order to remove several non-Albanian personalities (or at least change their ethnicities) in this section.Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your sources say that he was from the minority village of Himare, not that was Greek. Rather than templating me [35], please read this and also please cite your claims. Better start an article on him. And what other "changes" are you talking about? Can you please be more specific? --Sulmues (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Something else: For someone who doesn't know fully well the time when Spiro Koleka lived, and what he believed in, would not be easy to understand that the claim that he was from the Greek minority (at a time when Himara during that time didn't even have a Greek minority status) is completely bogus. So be careful when you enter in the article that he was Greek, because all you do is make an article unstable. --Sulmues (talk) 20:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sulmues please calm down and please check the topic before making specific removals. This is far too obvious (although I fear you might still disagree):
"Greeks rose to high positions under the one party state, with an ethnic Greek, Spiro Koleka, from the minority southern village of Himara".Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Although I disagree, I respect sources. According to Pettifer Edi Rama also must be Greek, Spiro Koleka was his uncle, you might want to reference that too. You might want to start also an article about Vitori Curri, a candidate to the Politburo from Dropull. She was a very respected Albanian politician.--Sulmues (talk) 20:36, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Drmies removed it initially and Sulmues reverted him and then self-reverted himself. Btw taking part in reality show doesn't grant notablity.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm just trying to make this article a better one and when an experienced user Dmries makes an edit such as that in this article where he has never edited, I think that there is something going on in that article too. Try to AGF me for once. To tell you the truth, she is probably the best reason for me to come and edit here, because she's probably the most charming thing of Himare (besides the waters). Please feel free to reference her and bring her back: I never made any edits on top models except for Marigona Dragusha. --Sulmues (talk) 01:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
source falsification
This [38] is yet another example of source falsification by ZjarriRrethues, the third in two days. The source used, Minahan, states quite clearly that the 'district of Himara is ethnic Greek. The editor in question changed the wording to refer to the town only, but kept the source, so this is a clear cut falsification. I note this is the second time in a few days that this user tries to water down the wording [39] to refer to the town only. He has also tried to remove sources on the most spurious of grounds [40] ("the source is offline"). I note that all the disruption on this article is initiated by this user, and am documenting this for future reference. Athenean (talk) 00:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Following the division of the Roman Empire in A.D 395 Albania passed to the eastern or Byzantine Empire and several Albanians became Byzantine emperors written by the same author. He will be removed as a source and I don't think anyone will object, unless they think that several Albanians became Byzantine emperors after 395. Btw the main review of the book about the stateless nations says that:
- While the sources credited include international organizations, scholarly societies, and a few U.S. government agencies, it is unclear how much input the leadership of various groups may have had in shaping the entries--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Tourist guide used as a source
That tourist guide used as a source has been replaced because of legal issues. Bollano wrote it himself and falsified the names of hotel owners amongst others so that cause a huge controversy and it was soon out of circulation, so I'll remove it[41][42].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'll try to find the new one online and you can use that as a source.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- By the way the tourist guide isn't used for the history section, but for the municipality's present status. Actually it's a very good guide: we can create a number of sections (recreation, sightseeings) based on this. If the mayor happened to be Greek this doesn't mean we have to remove this without checking.Alexikoua (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I brought the sources and that guide isn't used since 2008 but again you reverted everything even the names of the villages, although it's your source that states that 2 are Greek-speaking and 5 Albanian-speaking.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:30, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've moved this part to language section. Suppose if we find the new tourist guide of Himara, published by the (same) municipal authorities.
About the names of each villages I believe we should move them in the 'geography section'. Moreover, the source (Gregoric) says that some villages are mainly Albanian/Greek speaking but it doesn't limit Greek speech in only some of them. That the entire region is billingual this can be confirmed by several sourcess: [[43]], [[44]][[45]]. Of course some villages are mainly, but not entirely Albanian speaking.Alexikoua (talk) 17:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
The Official Tourist Guide of Himara, not reliable source
There seems to be a problem[46] with this official map [47]. The Guide of Himara is not a reliable source. You can check it yourself by right-clicking with your mouse to "View image" then zoom on page 3 of the PDF Guide of Himara. We can't use it at all. Beserks (talk) 06:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
![[46]](http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/66yhz31hyloy8u8/images/3-dda673f68a/001.jpg){kind=link}
What do you mean? The guide of Himara on p. 3 uses is bilingual map. That's fine.Alexikoua (talk) 08:28, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
No, it is not fine. It is not a bilingual map. You can check it yourself by right-clicking with your mouse to "View image" then zoom on page 3. Beserks (talk) 10:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not good in riddles, please tell us, what's exactly the problem here.Alexikoua (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
William Martin Leake / George Finlay
Reading page 88 at "Travels in Northern Greece", http://books.google.ca/books?id=9XUKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA88&dq=William+Martin+Leake+Khimara&hl=en&ei=bjBrTKOfBcSqlAe7leTaDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false, W.M. Leake clearly indicates the Albanian ethnicity of Himara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.178.14 (talk) 01:08, 18 August 2010 (UTC) See page 235 also —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.178.14 (talk) 02:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Reading page 64 at "The History of Greek Revolution", http://books.google.ca/books?id=bxHPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR3&dq=George+Finlay+Part+1&hl=en&ei=LDdrTKiWFsSBlAePwoywAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false , George Finlay clearly indicates the Albanian ethnicity of Himara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.178.14 (talk) 01:24, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Why not using Leake and Finlay books as sources of history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.178.14 (talk) 10:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Are you sure? Have you read page 88 at Travels in Northern Greece "... but the women in general know little of any language but the Albaninan". Is that not enough to consider that for Himara their mother tongue is Albanian. Is that not enough for you?. Ok see "The history of Greek Revolution" page 52 where, George Finlay wrote "Chimara...was the conditions of orthodox Christians of the Albanian race...". I advise everyone to read and use as historical sources for this article these two authors and not crap "Made in Asfalia" like "Tourist Guide of Himara" or anonym slav authors. George Finlay and William Martin Leake have done for Greece more than the entire army of modern greek historians. Both they were more than simple historians. Do you know that dear Alexauaua? If you don't, is time to stop deleting and start reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.178.14 (talk) 01:49, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Then you should read Gregoric, about Leake's claim [[48]].
I did that long time ago, and other than Krista V. Jorgji interpretation I don't where do you see that. Are you refering to: "..... Hobhouse (1813) and his companion the famous poet Byron (1891), Pouqueville (1825), Leake (1835), Lear (1851), Hammond (1967), et. al., are some of the writers who talked about Himarë/Himara or Dhërmi/Drimades and wrote the names in a slightly different manner. Lord Byron (1891) described the fighting spirit of the Albanian people and the revengefulness of the Himarë/Himara people. In his poem Child Harold he wrote the following words: Shall the sons of Chimara who never forgive The fault of a friend, bid an enemy life? Let those guns so unerring such vengeance forgo? What’s mark is so fair as the breast of a foe? (1891: XX). I see that even for Byron which has spend his life for Greece Himara is Albanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GjinBuaSpata (talk • contribs) 11:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Greek or Greek-speaking?
The town and district of Himara are predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek community or a Greek-speaking community?[1][2][3][4]Beserks (talk) 08:18, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- ^ Europa Publications Limited. Central and South-Eastern Europe 2004, Volume 5. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 9781857431865, p. 78.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Hammond1993was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Economist Intelligence Unit. (Great Britain). Country report: Albania, Issue 1., 2001.
- ^ Albania. Great Britain. Naval Intelligence Division. 1945. p. 70.
The people of this district are Orthodox and mainly Greek-speaking.
{{cite book}}:|first1=missing|last1=(help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
Very fine, that's another riddle? Please be precise on what you want to discuss here.Alexikoua (talk) 09:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Also please avoid disruption by removing the official guide of the district.Alexikoua (talk) 09:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Greek and Greek-speaking are two different things.
- the predominantly ethnic Greek district of Himara [49]
- It is one of several Greek-speaking villages... [50], Hammond regarding blood feuds with the other Labs.
- that marred voting at Himarë, a Greek-speaking district [51]
- The people of this district are Orthodox and mainly Greek-speaking [52]
Alexikoua, you understand very well what I am saying. Beserks (talk) 10:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Actually Hammond says they 'took pride in being Greek'.Alexikoua (talk) 10:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- If Alexikoua wants to identify these two terms then he'll have to accept the same status for Albanian-speaking and Albanian on Kastri, Thesprotia.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- (unindent) please respect the sourced material and avoid extreme wp:oring, just for national reasons.Alexikoua (talk) 10:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- He brought sources that say Greek-speaking so he's not extremely oring for national reasons. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Please read the sources first: 2 of them say Greek, and all 4 of them have been added by me in the article. The region actually is predominantly inhabited by the Greek minority (it was unrecognized during the Stalinist regime 1945-1991).Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- You can say both then Greek or Greek-speaking region.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- Please read the sources first: 2 of them say Greek, and all 4 of them have been added by me in the article. The region actually is predominantly inhabited by the Greek minority (it was unrecognized during the Stalinist regime 1945-1991).Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- He brought sources that say Greek-speaking so he's not extremely oring for national reasons. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- (unindent) please respect the sourced material and avoid extreme wp:oring, just for national reasons.Alexikoua (talk) 10:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
- These are word games, and just sound plain weird. We have simply too many sources (even some of those provided by Beserks above), that clearly say "ethnic Greeks". We've been over this "Greek" vs "Greek speaking" for years now, and I find it quite silly. I think we can all do more interesting and productive things, rather than this. Athenean (talk) 06:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Then what is the problem, if "Greek-speaking" is the same as "Greek"? Why did you revert my edit? If you find it silly, that's your problem. I'm going to revert to "Greek-speaking". As you said yourself, it's the same, no problem for me. I brought the sources saying Greek-speaking. Beserks (talk) 10:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- These are word games, and just sound plain weird. We have simply too many sources (even some of those provided by Beserks above), that clearly say "ethnic Greeks". We've been over this "Greek" vs "Greek speaking" for years now, and I find it quite silly. I think we can all do more interesting and productive things, rather than this. Athenean (talk) 06:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Thomas Gordon - Himara an Albanian region
According to General Thomas Gordon in his book "The History of Greek Revolution", Himara is consider Albanian. See "History of Greek Revolution" page 22 http://books.google.ca/books?id=kYKzLpmWcMgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Thomas+Gordon+greece&hl=en&ei=VJB_TKdlg8aVB6y0lIwP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=chimara&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by GjinBuaSpata (talk • contribs) 12:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Unexplained removals
Since a specific editor turns to be highly disruptive, I've restored the references he removed, no wonder, without giving an explanation [[53]].Alexikoua (talk) 00:06, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- I removed them during the copy/paste without wanting to, there's nothing wrong with eastern europe book. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:07, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
I've also see that this part was also moved down, although per wp:lead this should stay there: the size of the article needs this additional important info in lead (more than 10 travelguides in googlebooks confirm this characteristics about Himara in only 4 sentences).Alexikoua (talk) 00:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Then you should be carefull when removing every single edit in my contribution log (which you obviously check every minute).Alexikoua (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Info about some tavernas and a promenade isn't important additional info. I don't have to check your contributions log, since you mostly edit Albanian-related articles, which I have watchlisted.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Then you should be carefull when removing every single edit in my contribution log (which you obviously check every minute).Alexikoua (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)There's only 1 result on your search and even if there were too many, info about tavernas isn't important.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Quite weird, seems you clicked on something else: [[55]] 14 books. Also you seem to be offended by the Tavernas which are only one of the characteristics I added in lead.
For future reference: if almost all travel guides mention Himara as such: per wp:lead this should become part of the lead.Alexikoua (talk) 00:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- The tavernas aren't an important part of the article per wp:lead.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:32, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Well, this is your personal or: almost 'every' guide in googlebooks mentions this at the very start. By the way the paragraph should be added to 'location' and I wonder why a promenade or the old town is related to 'economy'.... suppose is part of the typical wp:idontlikeit strategy (removal of sources etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 01:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Minority issues section added
I added a section on the various ethnic issues in Himara, which I think are numerous enough to warrant a section. I have also added some info about the Goumas incident, being *extra* careful to steer clear of any of the BLP issues (I made sure to use words like "allegedly", "reportedly", etc...). While we may debate whether the incident is sufficiently notable to warrant a stand-alone article, I think 2-3 sentences here are appropriate. Athenean (talk) 01:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Himariots what they are ?!
Himariots (Albanian tribesmen), are Greek speaking or became Greek but originally Albanians.
References :
- The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century . By John Van Antwerp Fine
- Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire: The central lands. v. 2. The Arabic-speaking lands Benjamin Braude, Bernard Lewis Holmes & Meier Publishers, 1982 - History - 697 pages
- Anthropological journal on European cultures., Volumes 3-4 European Centre for Traditional and Regional Cultures, 1994 - History —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.220.19 (talk) 13:50, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Can you be more apprecise about this? What you write here proves nothing, these 3 books say nothing about the ethnic composition of Himara. And the article doesn't say which group originally inhabited this town (I doubt if there is any rs material claiming something about original inhabitants...). Also avoid or and extreme pov deductions and plz do not remove properly sourced parts.Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
I just added some sources more that proves the opposite of what are you trying to prove , i mean how fare you want to go what the original inhabitants were ?! There are endless sources that say that Himariots were originally Shqip speaking ...Even i found this interesting material that i want to add , read it for yourself..Could you be more cooperative with other editors ?!
- I reverted your edits because the sources you provided are unverifiable, even the one above, per WP:RS. Moreover, it looks like a WP:OR case... A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 12:49, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
- You can find here more information here for the author and the source
Returning Home to Rome? The Monks of Grottaferrata in Albania Ines Angeli Murzaku, Ph.D. (Professor of Ecclesiastical History) http://academic.shu.edu/orientalia/books/reviews.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.220.19 (talk) 17:09, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
- @95. just wait 4-5 more months before changing it. By the end of April 2011 we'll have the results of the census, so all speculations will be removed.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the ethnicity 'option' in this consensus will be optional, this means we can only imagine the ethnicity of the people that will not fill this option. National addiction using weird wp:crystal strategy is something we should avoid.Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- That's the standard policy regarding ethnicity on a census. Of course I'll have no problem adding that x people didn't define their ethnicity another standard issue, which you can find on ethnographic data of all countries of the Balkans except for Greece.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the ethnicity 'option' in this consensus will be optional, this means we can only imagine the ethnicity of the people that will not fill this option. National addiction using weird wp:crystal strategy is something we should avoid.Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
There are more details regarding the ethnicity of Himariotes - the basilian monks mentioned extensively even by Murzaku. Three reports of Schiro (one of Basilian monks)showed that in 17th and 18th century, the three villages of Palasa, Drimades and Himara were identified of Greek nationality (it. di nazione greci).
- "La missione dei monaci basiliani d'Italia in Albania"; Roma e L'Oriente Anno III, 25 Dicembre 1912, nr.26
- "La missione dei monaci basiliani d'Italia in Albania"; Roma e L'Oriente Anno III, Settembre - Ottobre 1913. Dhermijorgji (talk) 14:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Religion of Himariots
Himariots which adhered to Christian Orthodox and Catholic faith were partly converted to Islam after final defeat of Albanians which happened after the death of Scanderbeg their national in 1478.Individual conversion to Islam were recorded in beginning of 16th century and the phenomena of crypto-Christianity appeared, particularly in villages of Fterre ,Corraj e Vuno according to Ottoman registers of 1583.One of most common acceptable reason of an individual abjuring Christianity was to enable him to enter the Turkish army. This was the case of Ajaz Pasha ,Himarriot with extraordinary career who became Grand Vezir in Ottoman government send latter by Sultan to put down the revolt of Himariots of 1537. Due to efforts of several Basilian missions send by Rome since 1682 with Monks ancestral of region and knowledge of Albanian language, monks were prevalently Albanians in origin and for them was to return in the same land their ancestors left behind , Himarre was not entirely converted to Islam.
Reference : Returning Home to Rome - The Basilian Monks of Grottaferrata in Albania By Ines Angeli Murzak
- done and if anyone for the usual WP:IDONTLIKEIT reasons tries to remove it, I'll ask for admin intervention. Btw Murzaku is a professor of Byzantine and Catholic Church History at Seton Hall University.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:00, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
There is not evidence for Catholics in Himara and conversion in Islam did't happened in Himara. The case of Ajaz Pasha demostrate the second part. He was known with differnt name in Palasa and different in Istanbul. Also Himara,speaking of seven villages, was never converted neither to Islam nor to Catholicism.
It is not true that the Basilian monks were 'prevalently' Albanias in origin. Some of them like Schiro, Matranga, especially during the second phase came from Mezzoiuso. But out of 14 refered names only 4 are arberesh - Albania origin. Both Murzaku and Borgia did wrong estimations. Dhermijorgji (talk) 13:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
OR addition
This [56] addition is tendentious OR and I have reverted it. First of all, p. 68 of the source makes no mention of any such letter. Second, even if the Empress of Russia received a letter in Albanian in the 18th century, the claim that this means that Himara was Albanian-speaking is an "or deduction". A single letter in Albanian from the 18th century proves absolutely nothing. Moreover, it has nothing to do demographics, especially current demographics, which is what the Demographics section is about. Its insertion at the very top of the Demographics section is nothing more than an attempt to "prove" that Himara is Albanian, in other words, POV-pushing. Athenean (talk) 20:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Alexikoua's revert
[57] The source says Eastern-rite Albanians, so why did Alexikoua revert with the summary or deduction?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:29, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- Btw either state of the article would remain that way only until April, so please don't remove minor details. If the lead sentence was predominantly Albanian with Greek minority and the people defined themselves as Greeks in April the sentence would obviously change even if there were 100 quotes from various works as sources and vice versa. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:42, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- and which are they? Please adopt a more civil profile without extreme wp:CRYSTALL strategies. This part is oversourced by non-Greek-Albanian high grated sources.Alexikoua (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not making any edits by citing future events. In April 2011 I'll make those edits and remove all estimations etc. and I hope that you won't start edit-warring then. On the other hand Albanian IPs will finally stop spamming the talkpage with Himara is Albanian messages.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:59, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- and which are they? Please adopt a more civil profile without extreme wp:CRYSTALL strategies. This part is oversourced by non-Greek-Albanian high grated sources.Alexikoua (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- You seem to be very "confident" about the census. Considering some recent events, I'm going to guess such confidence is misplaced. Athenean (talk) 23:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- @Zjarrit.: Making repetitively statements about a possible future census that will secure ethnic purity against several academic references is extreme wp:CRYSTAL and someone could easily suggest that you are on wp:trolling territory.Alexikoua (talk) 23:06, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
@(unindent)@Alexikoua I'm not making any ethnic purity statements, but I'm saying that when the census results get published all estimations will be replaced.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:16, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- Noone cares here about personal obsessions. Academically speaking nothing will be replaced and a future census will simply confirm what hi graded references claim.Alexikoua (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing will be replaced if the census confirms the article. If the census results don't confirm your sources will be replaced. As I'm not insisting on Vickers because the census results will replace everything else, you shouldn't insist on labeling as hi-graded books that call Dhermi Zrimazes— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:58, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- Hammond is a top specialist and its called that way in the local Greek dialect.Alexikoua (talk) 00:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Alexikoua it's not called Zrimazes and it's just a spelling mistake Hammond made when writing his travel journals. Hammond's travel journals from the 1930s(unlike his academic works) aren't reliable sources, but I'm not insisting on removing them or the dead link because they'll be replaced in April.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Hammond is a top specialist and its called that way in the local Greek dialect.Alexikoua (talk) 00:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing will be replaced if the census confirms the article. If the census results don't confirm your sources will be replaced. As I'm not insisting on Vickers because the census results will replace everything else, you shouldn't insist on labeling as hi-graded books that call Dhermi Zrimazes— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:58, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- Actually he is one of many, see also the International Crisis Group.Alexikoua (talk) 13:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Alexikoua so don't insist on other sources using Hammond's wrong spelling [58].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- You need to initiate an wp:rsn case against Hammond.
(unindent)I won't start a RSN about Hammond's journals from the 1930s, because I'll replace them with the census figures.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Dodona sock reverted
I have reverted an or&pov edit by a tactical sockaccount user:Dodona per Fut's claim [[59]].Alexikoua (talk) 16:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'll ask a CU and if it confirms it he'll be blocked, otherwise both of you are edit-warring and I'll ask for full protection again.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:42, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Obviously are problematic for you …What is real your problem ?! Of course to present here untouched your twisted view ..In fact you have transform the article Himare in a total garbage ,the same as you did distorted my sourced text in the section religion of Himariots Pelasgon (talk) 17:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm uninvolved regarding your dispute about the meaning of the Basilan monks ethnicity.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:52, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Elections results and wp:or spculations in lead
I wonder why this part should be in lead [[60]]: one of many election results, where one party is termed as "Greek minority Party", with the unsourced speculation that this might indicate a smaller percentage of the Greek minority. 1. Election results are already presented in the relevant section below, 2. The speculation about the ethnic compotision is wp:or and needs to be removed entirely.Alexikoua (talk) 16:46, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously not; there's no reason why one of many election results in Himare should be in the lead. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Are you now talking with yourself ? It is obvious that user Pinkbeast is your second account . If i am mistaken i apologize however i am just initiating an investigation and things will be cleared .
- As for your argument , the voting results are very useful , given the fact that this article does not have ANY statistics for the ethnic composition . There is only 1 party representing the greek minority , so it would seem logical that it would get votes proportionally to the size of the greek population in himara .
- In fact here i paste a revert that user Alexikoua has made 2 years ago in the demographics section > The population of the Himarë region is 11,257 inhabitants,[1] with the ethnic composition of both the town and region predominantly Greek.[2] This appears to be backed by the high popularity levels of the Greek minority's !!!!!
- The definition of double standarts !
- This talk page also indicates , a very biased user with the name Alexikoua , reverting every edit in this talk page . I want this be understood by anyone reading this talk page , be that a user or an administrator . Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonender (talk • contribs) 17:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- You've been talking about "an investigation" for all of your short sad history of axe-grinding on Wikipedia; do it, or don't do it. I'm not a sock of Alexikoua, as even the briefest examination of our contribs will reveal.
- Your analysis is based on the idea that everyone in the area votes on purely nationalistic grounds; that Greeks only vote for "the Greek party" and Albanians only vote for "the Albanian parties". Not only is that not necessarily the case, it means the undue attention you are giving to this result is not justified; it certainly does not belong in the lead.
- And i am not claiming to know the demographics , although i do being from Himara ... ! I am just stating the election results for the year 2013 . The reader then , can decide what or what to not make out of it .
- May i know why this urge of yours ( given your revert history ) to undo such a harmless , very sourced , and very valuable content , given the fact of Himara being bilingual and multi ethnic ? It helps in establishing a more clear picture of the region .
- So state the result later in the article (where it _is_ stated). Why put them in the lead? Only because you're making an unjustified inference about their implication for demographics.
- I removed the election information per WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. This article is about the place not the election and we don't put election results in the lead of places. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 18:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I don't speak the language. Is there anything in cited sources to indicate which parties are Greek or Albanian? If not, it's clearly inappropriate to infer information about demographics from the vote. I'm not convinced it is anyway; the Scottish National Party got 45% of the vote in the 2011 Scottish elections, but that does not mean that 55% of the population of Scotland is not Scottish. Unless a source shows that people vote overwhelmingly along demographic lines, this does not belong in the demographics section. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Afraid or not , what you claim is absolutely not true . If you have a single source , please do bring it on ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.241.74.90 (talk) 19:55, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's really up to you to provide a source that the parties making up the remaining 70-odd% of the vote are overwhelmingly Albanian and voted for by Albanians, or the implication about demographics that you are trying to draw is unsourced, in my view. Pinkbeast (talk) 10:25, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- The text is saying > 75 % voted for albanian parties , while 25% for the greek unity party . I brought the OFFICIAL RESULTS of 2013 .... what more do you want ? I am not trying to draw any implication , i am JUST PROVIDING THE 2013 OFFICIAL ELECTION RESULTS , A RAW TEXT SAYING SIMPLY THE ELECTION RESULTS FOR 2013 . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonender (talk • contribs) 15:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Let's be clear; if it says more than 75% voted for one lot and 25% for the other lot, we already know it's wrong.
- That aside, what is unsourced is any indication that the other parties are "Albanian" - either that their candidates are overwhelmingly so, that their voters are overwhelmingly so, that people vote along demographic lines. It doesn't matter if you personally know this is true; it matters if you have a reliable source that says it is so. In particular, the "RAW TEXT" does not say this.
- I said it in my edit summary and I am going to repeat it here: All of these are "Albanian parties" otherwise they would not be taking part in "Albanian elections". So to call one party "Greek" and all the other parties "Albanian" is misguided and flat out wrong, not to mention original research WP:OR. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 16:28, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
- Er, well. Words can mean different things in context. They are clearly Albanian in the sense that any political party in Scotland is a "Scottish political party", but I think the inference being drawn by Bonender is that they are Albanian in the sense that the Scottish National Party is a Scottish political party and other political parties in Scotland are not; the sense in which the Unity for Human Rights Party is a "Greek" party (and indeed is referred to as such in some sources) even though it does not operate in Greece.
Damn , i would even claim that this is arrogance on Dr.K behalf . If you see the demographics section , you will see that the same persons ( Alexikoua , Dr.K ) have writen this text > The population of the Himarë region is 11,257 inhabitants,[40] with the ethnic composition of both the town and region predominantly Greek.[41][42] This appears to be backed by the high popularity levels of the Greek'Bold text' minority's Unity for Human Rights Party in the region <
I just added after this > In the last governmental elections (2013), the region of Himara voted 25.5% for the Greek Unity of Human Rights party, while 75% for Albanian parties. > and brought the official results for 2013 , bringing a source from the official results .
You the same people played this card, of the high percentage of the voters for this greek party , as an indicator of the greekness of himara . I just provided the latest statistics based on what was written before by you , yet you revert my edit , because it does not comply with your propaganda .
I am sure that other legitimate editors and admins will agree with me , thus i will forward this to a resolution team . I will also ask for sanctions against you . Regards , — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bonender (talk • contribs) 19:54, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Himara was populated by Ethnic Albanians ,here is a strong proof : [3]
References
- ^ Gregorič, 2008: p. 44.
- ^ The politics of national minority participation in post-communist Europe, Jonathan Stein, EastWest Institute, p. 187 "...who came from the predominantly ethnic Greek town of Himara."
- ^ Soranzo, Lazaro (1598). L'ottomanno. p. 70.
wp:lead problems
The recent addition of the disputed census data is placed in a way that appears to contradict several secondary rs in the lead. The right way per wp:lead is to present the full part as presented in the appropriate section [[61]].Alexikoua (talk) 13:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Moreover, this link [[62]] doesn't give the ethnic data per municipality, as far I've checked. I see several classifications by origin or ethnic background is nowhere to find.Alexikoua (talk) 13:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Alexikoua here how to see the ethnic data per municipality > 1) Choose english language 2) on the right side of the window
choose detail level ( you choose local units ) 3) Chooose the indicators group (you choose Population ) 4) Choose the indicator ( ethno cultural groups ) ... and then you click himara on the map .... !!!
This is a G.I.S map you have all the indicators per municipality ( be that economical , social , or ethnic for each municipality of albania , based on the census of 2011 ) .
Second There is already this sentence on the lead : The region of Himarë is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek community.[4][5][6][7] ..... !
So i dont see why this edit is bothering you so much ?
Either that sentence is removed as well , or the census results will stay on the lead too ... You cannot claim that himara is predominantly greek , when the census shows a Greek population of only 24 % , and 61 % albanian .... !!! Thank you for your understanding
Gjirokastra15 (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Gjirokastra15, when I do those clicks, as you suggest, and I click on Himara, I just find 82.6% Albanians, as it is for all the municipalities of Albania, so I don't know where you see the 61% and 24% that you claim. --Dojumatufeps (talk) 14:12, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
After you have chosen Local units and not prefectures i said on my first post ) , then when you click himara a window opens , scroll down the window ... ! It is there , if you need a screenshot , i will be happy to provide you . It is not that hard , to do .
P.S It seems that you did everything right , but did not scroll down the window that opens ( the beginning says the 82.6 % and then when you scroll down on the window , it gives you specifically for himara )Gjirokastra15 (talk) 14:17, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I just see the 60% something for the Albanians, but I don't see the 24% for the Greeks. --Dojumatufeps (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Good at least we are heading somewhere ;) . The blue part of the chart ( 60.23 % is for Albanian ) and the red ( 24.53 % is for greek ) . It is impossible not to see , because u get it in a chart ... Gjirokastra15 (talk) 14:34, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I saw it now. Had to restart my browser, for some reason was showing only one color, the Albanian one. Dojumatufeps (talk) 14:41, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- The question I've raised was about the way this information should be presented, i.e. under the essential context which is already in the demographics question. Although, in general, census results in general aren't part of the lead, it would be a good idea to have all kind of info from the start in this case.Alexikoua (talk) 18:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough , seems reasonable given the sensitivity that this article has ( for both sides ) . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I too agree with the recent edits. --Dojumatufeps (talk) 19:54, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- The given references use the term 'minority zone' or 'minority area' as part of the dictatorship-era politics in Albania (pre-1991). Off course in case there is some kind of still-existing official designation to term towns as part of minority or autonomous districts, a decent source is needed.Alexikoua (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Alexikoua seems to be removing text selectively , in order to wp synth after consensus was established .
Specifically in the lead the text > During the People's Socialist Republic of Albania (1945-1991) the area was not part of the Greek minority area < is trying to imply that now that zone is a recognised minority area , yet such is not the case .
He is reverting this edit , claiming that no recognised minority zones exist in Albania yet that it is a lie ... ! Dropulli and Aliko , mesopotam are all ( in communism and post communism) recognised minority zones . Himara was not and still is not a recognized minority zone ( from the albanian state ) simply because the majority living there as also shown from the census are of Albanian ethnicity .
Gjirokastra15 (talk) 19:59, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I am (still) inviting you to find a reference which claims that in present day Albania the term 'minority zone' exist. But I've proved per above link, this is a non-existent term in present day democratic Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 22:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
The reference that you claim that is showing that no minority zones exist , in fact is showing the exact opposite . Would you mind re reading the whole paragraph ? Or do you want me to copy paste it here ? Gjirokastra15 (talk) 11:18, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks I'll slightly reword this part. My argument was focused on exactly this one: there isn't such a special zone in modern Albania "at all", since the present form makes it seem that it still exist with Himara being excluded.Alexikoua (talk) 13:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Alexikoua Minority zones still exist , and dropulli is recognized as such for example . While himara was not and still is not part of a recognized minority zone ( as also proven by your source ) which i have used as a reference by the way ! So yes , there is a special zone ( a minority zone ) in modern Albania , and himara is not a part of that zone to this day ! As such i will improve the referenced assertion as well , analogically to your edit , we have to make sure that the sentence is not a wp synth , thus giving a totally different context than what the sources claim . Regards , Gjirokastra15 (talk) 15:35, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- However, the reference claims exactly the opposite, that the [policy changed] and as a result universities and schools were established outside the former zone. To make it simple the reference refutes your argument that this situation "is still in existence" (no wonder the source uses past tense when referring to these zones).Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
- After further research it appears that 'officially' this distiction is non-existence, it appears to be a remnant of the past regime, per [[64]]:
The government continues to contend that all those belonging to national minorities are recognised as such, irrespective of the geographical areas in which they live.
To sum up there are no minority zones in modern day Albania, whether in Dropul, Himara or elsewhere.Alexikoua (talk) 20:20, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Alexikoua you continue to wp synth , in order to lead you to a predestined outcome . The past tense is for the fact > That the government allowed greek schools to open NOT only in greek minority zones < . Thus the minority zones do exist , it just is that now Greek schools are allowed to open outside those areas as well , such as Arsakeio in Tirana for example . 176.68.26.198 (talk) 11:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
- Since there is no objection so far, I'm going to remove the tagged part. Moreover, presenting in detail a disputed census in the very lede is something against wp:lede, although it can deserve a very brief mention because it's the first official report that recognizes a Greek minority in the region.Alexikoua (talk) 06:52, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
You are not going to remove anything . Your edit was the most blatant example of a wp:synth i have ever seen in wikipedia , you even synthed the source and the census results . 1)The 2011 census results will stay on the lead , as long as your claim of `the Himara is predominantly Greek` type of comment , is on the lead . 2) Himara is not part of the ( recognized ) minority zone .... 3)Last but not least the census is not disputed at all . In fact it was co funded by the E.U and accepted by the E.U and all the international organizations . Wp:idontlikeit is not a valid reason for removing it ...Gjirokastra15 (talk) 12:55, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- It appears you systematically ignore every single citation, even the once provided by you, which clearly refutes the existence of modern 'minority zones'. Unfortunately this "census" is entirely questioned, something you initially accepted, in this discussion, but now appear to boycott the discussion.Alexikoua (talk) 14:09, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- On the contrary i value all the sources , and all of my edits are exclusively based on them . However the same cannot be said for you as shown by your last edit . I did neither accept neither refute anything regarding the census. I thought we could have a consensus on a very sensitive matter such as this . As per wp:burden it is upon you to prove that the census was boycotted or questioned . However , stop the wp:synth on every thing that you wp:idontlikeit
- As for the source that you claim refutes the existence of modern minority zones , it clearly states that in 2006 the Albanian government allowed a Greek school in Gjirokastra and also Himara which were OUTSIDE the recognized minority zone . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 14:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the claim of the 2011 census being boycotted
``The latest census in the country (2011), which has been widely disputed due to irregularities in the procedure, as well as affected by boycott,[1][2][3]
The 3 references do not support at all that the census was boycotted , in fact they do not even point to irregularities . As per WP:VERIFICATION , that part will be removed unless sources will be presented supporting that . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 13:36, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- One of the three inline citations, in fact the article of Tirana times, uses the title Ethnic and religious data affected by boycott, with detailed descriptions why this was boycotted and the irregularities in the procedure. Can't be more simple than that.Alexikoua (talk) 09:46, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Final census findings lead to concerns over accuracy". Tirana Times. Retrieved 26 May 2014.
- ^ Likmeta, Besar. "Albania Moves Ahead With Disputed Census". Balkaninsight. Retrieved 26 May 2014.
- ^ "Three Albanian journalists awarded with "World at 7 Billion Prize"". United Nations (Albania). Retrieved 26 May 2014.
...the controversial CENSUS data
It seems some people need to read WP:LEAD. The lead of an article is meant to be a summary of the article as a whole. The lead is not the place to include material that is not elsewhere in the article, nor is it meant to be used to make a WP:POINT. Reliable sources all point to the fact that Himara is predominantly inhabited by ethnic Greeks. That is sufficient for the lead. The 2011 census was rigged and boycotted, it is not a reliable source, and there is simply no way I'm going to accept having it prominently displayed in the lead. Athenean (talk) 18:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the removal of the established consensual text in the lead
Such practices like this edit without a proper explanation by the user Athenean and with personal attacks , as per WP:NPA are certainly not helping . If however you folks are insisting on removing referenced assertions and the results of censuses as per wp:idontlikeit , then i am sure that you will agree with me that the lead is not for claiming that : The region of Himarë is predominantly populated by an ethnic Greek community.[1][2][3][4] , while the 2011 census shows that 25 % of the population declared themselves Greeks . So as per wp:Lede either that one gets removed as well or the census results as per established long standing consensus will remain . Athenean please revert yourself . Gjirokastra15 (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- The sources that state that Himara is predominantly inhabited by ethnic Greeks are reliable. The boycotted and rigged 2011 census is not. It's that simple. Athenean (talk) 18:33, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- As per wp:burden you have to prove that the census was boycotted and rigged . Although i can assure you that you will find not a single source from an international organisation claiming that . Not to mention that it was funded and assisted by the European Union , and the CIA world factbook uses it for its sources regarding Albania . Now i fail to see how some 20 year old books are more accurate for the demographic situation of 2014 , than then 2011 census ... So either that phrase goes as well or the referenced assertions established per consensus as shown above on the talk page will remain . Removing it as per wp:idontlikeit is totally ludicrous .Gjirokastra15 (talk) 18:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that you claim these sources are 20 years old shows you haven't even bothered to read them. Sources have also been provided to the effect that the census was boycotted and rigged. Since you can't be bothered to read sources that you don't like, there is no point in continuing this discussion. Athenean (talk) 19:04, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I have a simple question. Do you posess any reliable source on the boycotting and rigging of the census? or if it doesn't fit the greek agenda, it was boycotted and rigged? Which one is it? as I remember, as one of many ethnic Albanian residents of Himarë that there were no iregularities there during the census, nor my friends from the other villages told me any such thing. I am very curious, what is your fair and impartial source of these accusations? And the funniest thing, if a Greek edits the albanian pages, it is fine, no conflict of interest there, but if an Albanian tries to edit his own pages with his own sources or his own official information from his OWN government, having control over the Jurisdiction of the places at stake, he appears to have a conflict of interest. Double standards high or am I high? :) Cheers.Gjergj Zogaj128 (talk) 18:27, 25 June 2018 (UTC)Gjergj ZogajGjergj Zogaj128 (talk) 18:27, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Yo @Gjergj Zogaj128:, word your comments differently on these kinds of matters and only address the content not others. Otherwise it creates all sorts of headaches. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Europa Publications Limited. Central and South-Eastern Europe 2004, Volume 5. Routledge, 2003. ISBN 978-1-85743-186-5, p. 78.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
Hammond1993was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Economist Intelligence Unit. (Great Britain). Country report: Albania, Issue 1., 2001.
- ^ "Albania: The state of a nation" (PDF). ICG Balkans Report N°111. p. 15. Retrieved 2010-09-02.
The coastal Himara region of Southern Albania has always had a predominantly ethnic Greek population.
Name
This region is commonly known as Himara. Historically, it was spelled "Chimara".
- "Himara" albania -llc -wikipedia: 162
- "Himare" albania -llc -wikipedia: 91
- "Himara" region -llc -wikipedia: 210
- "Himare" region -llc -wikipedia: 113 (many of which do not relate to the subject)
Any thoughts on this?--Zoupan 11:16, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Use of Psalidas
I wonder why one single 19th theory about the ethnicity of the locals is much too important to be presented in the history section. Not even isn't it added at the appropriate section, but there is nothing representative with it [[65]]. All contradicting theories have been summarized at the appropriate section. There is also no need to create the usually mess as in Souliotes in order to present all 19th-early 20th century contradicting evidence and thus adding 30k of virtually useless, for the reader, text.Alexikoua (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm still asking Resnjari's why Psalidas and not the rest 19th-early 20th century evidence we have available. There is also the question why Psalidas shouldn't be located in Demographics section, but in history.Alexikoua (talk) 14:06, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- Because a peer reviewed scholar Kallivretakis has done fieldwork in 1992 (when most of the population was there and not gone in the migration that followed of the region) and compared what was then current day data (in 1992) with that of 19th century data that corresponded as being almost in unison to that data. That's what sets Psalidas apart from the others, in relation to Himara at least. Kallvretakis has noted that the term Greek was used by others during the 19th century for Orthodox Albanians. Its all in there and in Greek. Have a read. Anyway, you have moved your view from not having Psalidas to moving it to a different section. I am fine with that.Resnjari (talk) 14:21, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Resnjari's detailed reply to Alexikoua
- Your source from 1981 refers to common Orthodox identity that went beyond current day concepts of identity formation. That's fine and true especially in the case of Himara. Nonetheless Kallivretakis who did fieldwork in 1992 in the districts of Sarande and Gjirokaster had this to say on the matter of the demography of the region. He concluded this on page 34 [66]. "Στα πλαίσια της επιτόπιας έρευνας που πραγματοποιήσαμε στην Αλβανία (Νοέμβριος-Δεκέμβριος 1992), μελετήσαμε το ζήτημα των εθνοπολιτισμικών ομάδων, όπως αυτές συνειδητοποιούνται σήμερα επί τόπου. Είναι ενδιαφέρον καταρχήν το γεγονός ότι οι ντόπιοι Έλληνες που βιώνουν μια πραγματικότητα και δεν αντλούν την εμπειρία τους από επιτελικούς χάρτες, χρησιμοποιούν χαρακτηρισμούς που λαμβάνουν υπόψιν την πολυπλοκότητα του φαινομένου και αποφεύγουν τις απλουστεύσεις. Έτσι τα χωριά χαρακτηρίστηκαν αυθορμήτως ως Ελληνικά, Αλβανικά Χριστιανικά, Αλβανικά Μουσουλμανικά —με ιδιαίτερη μνεία των Τσάμικων— και Βλάχικα. Οι χαρακτηρισμοί αυτοί συμπίπτουν σε σημαντικό βαθμό με εκείνους των πηγών του 19ου αιώνα.Περισσότερο πολύπλοκες είναι οι περιπτώσεις που σχετίζονται με τις πόλεις, τα μικτά χωριά, τα νέα χωρία και τις μετακινήσεις πληθυσμών που έχουν λάβει χώρα τα τελευταία χρόνια. [As part of the fieldwork we held in Albania (November-December 1992), we studied the issue of ethnocultural groups, as they are realized today on the spot. Interestingly principle that the local Greeks who experience a reality and not draw their experience from headquarters of maps, using descriptions that take into account the complexity of the phenomenon and avoid simplifications. Thus the villages spontaneously identified as Greek, Albanian Christian, Muslim Albanian -with special reference to Chams and Vlachs. These designations are largely the same as those of the 19th century sources. More complex cases are associated with cities, mixed villages, new villages and population movements that have occurred in recent years]".
- His conclusions on the village demography of Himara is that there were Orthodox Albanian villages in the area in 1992. Greek settlements are Himara (with its two neighbourhoods of Spila and Shen Mehil), Palasa and Dhermi. Qeparo is mixed with a neighbourhood inhabited by both ethnic groups each. Kallivretakis notes that most settlements in the area contain the same ethnic compositions from the 19th century. He cites Psalidas (from the early 19th century) who says there where 3 Greek villages and Orthodox Albanian villages in the Himara area. I therefore added Psalidas, as an Orthodox Albanian presence is not new in the area or the advent of some kind of linguistic or other forms of "Albanisation" (interestingly the article omits info about hellenisation). Only in the town of Himara in the neighbourhood of Spile where there newcomers under the communist era, the rest of Kallivretakis data coincide with old demographics. So its not a selected theory. Psalidas' inclusion is of merit to this article.Resnjari (talk) 13:56, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- Its due to Psalidas being the only source that relates that there was 3 Greek villages and that there were Orthodox Albanian villages during the early 19th century. That info from the past is the same info that corespond's with contemporary times. Kallivratkis state outirhgt "Έτσι τα χωριά χαρακτηρίστηκαν αυθορμήτως ως Ελληνικά, Αλβανικά Χριστιανικά, Αλβανικά Μουσουλμανικά —με ιδιαίτερη μνεία των Τσάμικων— και Βλάχικα. Οι χαρακτηρισμοί αυτοί συμπίπτουν σε σημαντικό βαθμό με εκείνους των πηγών του 19ου αιώνα. [Thus the villages spontaneously identified as Greek, Albanian Christian, Muslim Albanian -with special reference to Chams and Vlachs. These designations are largely the same as those of the 19th century sources.]Resnjari (talk) 14:21, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- I assume you have to be kidding me: you added Psalidas, one of several 19th century accounts, because he is somewhat in agreement to modern demographics? Thus, this means if we have plenty of other 19th century accounts that disagree with Psalidas that's a good reason to this part removed.Alexikoua (talk) 14:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- No i am not kidding. Other accounts say that the whole Himara region had a Greek population and omitted the Albanian element, and Kallivratkis talks about their issues (in a generalised sense about how Albanian speaking peoples where catgorised by some during that time etc). Kallivratkis showed in 1992 that there was an Albanian element present in Himara. A simple question for you is this: is Kallivretakis wrong (is his research 'flawed' somehow) in concluding that: ""Έτσι τα χωριά χαρακτηρίστηκαν αυθορμήτως ως Ελληνικά, Αλβανικά Χριστιανικά, Αλβανικά Μουσουλμανικά —με ιδιαίτερη μνεία των Τσάμικων— και Βλάχικα. Οι χαρακτηρισμοί αυτοί συμπίπτουν σε σημαντικό βαθμό με εκείνους των πηγών του 19ου αιώνα. [Thus the villages spontaneously identified as Greek, Albanian Christian, Muslim Albanian -with special reference to Chams and Vlachs. These designations are largely the same as those of the 19th century sources.]". Psalidas is the one 19th century source who refers to 3 Greek villages and other villages in Himara being Orthodox Albanian (as cited in Kallivretakis). Have i got that wrong somehow, have i misread the Greek? Resnjari (talk) 14:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- You are into POV by choosing one specific 19th century account among many, in fact the one that you personally like. Moreover, did I read something wrong: Psalidas' account doesn't name the Albanian villages of Himara: "some" villages is very obscure. Also take in mind that Himara included that time a number villlages that are not part of the modern munipical unit (Nivica, Lukovo etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 16:40, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- Yes Himara did include other villages like Lukova, Nivica (even Muslim Albanian Borsh) etc and they too have a Orthodox Albanian population in the fieldwork conducted. I am not choosing one source over the other and nor did Kallivretakis. Psalidas states clearly only 3 Greek villages (today there are only 3 whole Greek [speaking] villages, one mixed and the rest with an Orthodox Albanian population -even if one was to extend Himara to encompass the commune of Lukova which sort of considers itself Himara is some sense). I fail to see why Psalidas should not be cited as other sources refer to Greek only presence when that was not the case. Kallivretakis states: "Έτσι τα χωριά χαρακτηρίστηκαν αυθορμήτως ως Ελληνικά, Αλβανικά Χριστιανικά, Αλβανικά Μουσουλμανικά —με ιδιαίτερη μνεία των Τσάμικων— και Βλάχικα. Οι χαρακτηρισμοί αυτοί συμπίπτουν σε σημαντικό βαθμό με εκείνους των πηγών του 19ου αιώνα. [Thus the villages spontaneously identified as Greek, Albanian Christian, Muslim Albanian -with special reference to Chams and Vlachs. These designations are largely the same as those of the 19th century sources.]". Do the sources of which you speak align with this conclusion of a peer reviewed scholar whose study has looked at the demography of the area ? For Himara Psalidias falls into that category.Resnjari (talk) 16:57, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
We can have a section on 19th century accounts if you want like in the Souliotes article or expand the demographics article with this stuff as a subsection, but i think its inclusion is of merit to the article. I am off to bed now. Write some ideas here (ping me too in case i forget). Best.Resnjari (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Falsification of Gregoric
The recent proposal [[67]] does not reflect the description offerred by Gregoric. For example 1. the Fis/Soi defition&structure per Gregoric is identical to the one of Mani-, s. Greece, nevertheless the proposed text states that this is different from the Greek kinship structure&definition, 2. Gregoric description is limited to one village, i.e. proposal is far too detailed for this article (we also know that Himara town there is the "Phatria" instead of soi) 3. Accusations about "Vandalism" should be avoided since they reveal an aggresive nature.Alexikoua (talk) 16:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
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The demonym: Himariots or Himariotes?
What is the plural form? If there is one correct, it should be used in all Wikipedia articles.--Adûnâi (talk) 14:25, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
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