Talk:History of Azerbaijan

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History of Azerbaijan , Khanates[edit]

One party says because the reliable source (Iranica) has an error in the date of an event , other sentence that is cited from the source ,that has no connection to the wrong date, should be changed as "Azerbaijani khanates" instead of "Iranian Khanates" . I think we can not cite a sentence from a source , but change it . Besides , other reliable source (Encyclopaedia Britannica) says the same as Iranica (in my opinion ).Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Using the source or changing the sentence[edit]

I want to ask the opinion of the editors about this change : [1].The Encyclopædia Iranica's text is as fallows :

This new entity consisted of the former Iranian Khanates of Arrān, including Karabagh, Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Talysh (Ṭāleš), Derbent (Darband), Kuba, and Nakhichevan (Naḵjavān), which had been annexed to Russia by the treaties of Golestān (1813) and Torkamānčāy (1828) under the rubric of Eastern Transcaucasia. [2]

The alternative party says (see upper section )because that article (Iranica) has an error in the date of an event , the sentence that is cited from it , should be changed as "Azerbaijani khanates" instead of "Iranian Khanates".

More than that , what is the opinion of the other editors about the interpretation of the Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan Encyclopædia Britannica ?

Persian -ruled khanates in Shirvan (Şamaxı), Baku, Ganja (Gäncä), Karabakh, and Yerevan dominated this frontier of Ṣafavid Iran....Henceforth the Azerbaijani Turks of Caucasia were separated from the majority of their linguistic and religious compatriots, who remained in Iran.

Can Britannica be used as a source for "Iranian Khanates" ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:45, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment

Alborz, I think you're slightly misrepresenting my argument here. While I had pointed out some erroneous entries in Iranica, I also gave you the reasons why these khanates are not Iranian (please see above). The books by renown scholars and authors do indicate the khanates were Azerbaijani, not Iranian. Iranian khanates which were ruled directly by the Iranian shah were located below the Araz river. The ones above it were Azerbaijani, both by population of Azerbaijani Turks and by geographical name and location. They were independent (when independent they often fought the Iranian shahs who attacked them from the south) and semi-independent (when semi-independent, they were under Persian suzerainty). Thank you! Tuscumbia (talk) 15:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Most of the ordinary editors are not familiar with this topic and if we ask them to comment about the whole disagreement , they would not participate . I reduced the complex problem to a simple one of citing from the sources - that has a general guideline in Wikipedia - to get the response from the editors . So simple : Can we select a sentence from a source , but change it in the article to a new opposite one with any reason ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
So, your intent is to just get one editor come and answer one limited question to possibly support you, and then leave while the counter argument is not considered? I'm sorry Alborz, but the very nature of the discussion can't be ignored. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
We will reach an end result Step by step.I have objections against the presented sources , but first we may reach a result in clear problems.First is to reach a consensus about how to do citing from books.Shan't we use the sources in correct manner ?Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry Alborz, but your very request for comment misrepresents my arguments. The argument is not because Iranica "has an error in the date of an event". The indication of an error was to let you know that this online encyclopedia may not be precise and erroneous with facts, while the addition of reliable sources by neutral historians stating the opposite should be added. A third party commenting here needs to be aware of the details. Tuscumbia (talk) 16:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you mean the Iranica is not a reliable source ? If yes , we can talk about it .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Alborz, I don't say it's unreliable. You must be misunderstanding me. I am saying the reliable sources that define the khanates as Azerbaijani which were added to the article indicate these were independent and semi-independent khanates under Persian suzerainty and when you tried to argue otherwise presenting Iranica as a source, the response was that Iranica can be erroneous due to incorrect factual mistakes on other related data. In general, as I had already stated above, I don't understand what exactly we're discussing for so long if the article already says these Azerbaijani khanates were under Persian suzerainty. Tuscumbia (talk) 18:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment - Perhaps it would make the article more readable and neutral to use the plain word "Khanates" without prefixing it as Iranian or Azerbaijani. I don't see what value the prefix adds, and since the sources are using both, the prefixes seem to be generating more heat than light. I recommend removing the prefix altogether, and creating a footnote that briefly summarizes the sources that say Iranian vs Azerb. Alternatively, capture the Iranian/Azerb choice in a sentence in the prose, and explain to the reader how the Khanates are considered to be Iranian in some contexts, etc. --Noleander (talk) 05:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
The word Azerbaijani does not necessarily imply the political affiliation, but a geographic and ethnic one. Hence the usage of word combination Azerbaijani khanates by renown scholars and historians (See the books in google link I provided). Tuscumbia (talk) 23:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
It is more complex than showing a word in a book . The whole picture of the situation is available in previous talk that the result was to avoid such combination. My personal opinion is that using the word Azerbaijani in ethnic sense is correct , but deleting a sourced material pointing to the Persian political connection is not correct . Again , what is the problem of the Britannica and Iranica sentences ? Why can't we use the exact word of that reliable sources , alongside the explanation that the term "Azerbaijani Khanate" has an ethnic meaning , and not political burden . From geographical-historical point of view , the north of Aras river was not called Azerbaijan before 1918 , and the nation-state of Azerbaijan has not been established in 18th and 19th century ; so insisting in using the ambiguous term is kind of misinforming the reader .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
That, my friend, is incorrect information. The area was called Azerbaijan and the information can be found in numerous accounts of travellers before the 20th century. What happened in 1918 is that the name Azerbaijan Democratic Republic was given to an independent state. That's probably why historians do refer to the khanates as Azerbaijani. When you say "reliable sources", why do you choose to dismiss these sources: [3], (pp. 117-119); [4] (pp. 12, 13, 150 - Note: On page 25, read about division of "Azerbaijan into two parts"); [5] (pp. 2-4, 5 - Note: read the exact wording you were looking for); [6] (p. XI - Note: You can read the chronology of states on territory of Azerbaijan (yes, the area was called Azerbaijan), p. 32 (Note: See how Iranian Azerbaijan is explicitly distinguished from Northern Azerbaijan), p. 4); [7] (p. 110); [8] (p. 5 - Note: it even states they were under Iranian and Russian suzerainty, not just Iranian); [9] (p. 159); [10] (pp. 143-144); [11] (p. 47); [12] (p. 190); [13] (p. 222); [14] (p. 82); [15] (pp. 24, 92). There are a lot more sources, stating the same. Tuscumbia (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
That debate is an old , extended one : Please read the bulk of evidences . It does not have a clear cut answer that can be Googled out of books ! But anyway , I think previous results of Wikipedia talk pages about this topic is of use .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:27, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment (uninvolved editor). I'm in general agreement with Noleander's suggestion, which envisions that we will provide the reader with the available information but that we will not try to reach our own decision about whether "Azerbaijani" or "Iranian" is the best description. I don't know if the dispute requires a footnote. I think it might be handled with simple, concise text that accurately notes any disagreement among reliable sources, with separate footnotes quoting them. Would this be correct: "Several Muslim khanates, variously described as Azerbaijani[1][2] or as Iranian[3] [4], that were sometimes ...." (The first two footnotes are to the Świętochowski and Buttino books; the second two are to the Iranica and the Britannica.) JamesMLane t c 14:52, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you.I think if Tuscumbia (other party) agrees , we can change the sentence as JamesMLane suggests .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
OK, we can do that. Alborz, could you please write a draft footnote so that we discuss it here first before add it to the article? Tuscumbia (talk) 15:03, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed Draft of the section Khanates of late 18th – early 19th centuries[edit]

After Nadir Shah's assassination in 1747, the Persian Empire under Afsharids disintegrated. Several Muslim khanates, variously described as Azerbaijani[5][6] or as Iranian[3][7], that were sometimes de facto independent[8][9][10][11] founded under nominal Persian suzerainty.[10][12][13][14] Within Azerbaijan emerged the khanates of Shirvan, Baku, Karabakh, Ganja, Quba, Shaki, Talysh, Erivan, Nakhchivan and other small city-states. The khanates engaged in constant warfare between themselves and with external threats. The most powerful among the northern khans was Fat'h Ali Khan of Quba (died 1783), who managed to unite most of the neighboring khanates under his rule and even mounted an expedition to take Tabriz, fighting with Zand dynasty. Another powerful khanate was that of Karabakh, which subdued neighboring Nakhchivan khanate and parts of Erivan khanate.

Footnotes[edit]

  1. ^ Świętochowski, Tadeusz; Collins, Brian C. (1999). Historical dictionary of Azerbaijan. Scarecrow Press. p. 4. ISBN 0-810-83550-9. Retrieved 2011-11-23. 
  2. ^ Buttino, Marco; Świętochowski, Tadeusz (1993). In a collapsing empire: underdevelopment, ethnic conflicts and nationalisms in the Soviet Union, Volume 28. Feltrinelli Editore. p. 189. ISBN 8-807-99048-2. Retrieved 2011-11-23. 
  3. ^ a b Multiple Authors. "AZERBAIJAN". Encyclopædia Iranica. Retrieved 2011-October-09. This new entity consisted of the former Iranian Khanates of Arrān, including Karabagh, Baku, Shirvan, Ganja, Talysh (Ṭāleš), Derbent (Darband), Kuba, and Nakhichevan (Naḵjavān), which had been annexed to Russia by the treaties of Golestān (1813) and Torkamānčāy (1828) under the rubric of Eastern Transcaucasia.  Check date values in: |access-date= (help)
  4. ^ Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan
  5. ^ Świętochowski, Tadeusz; Collins, Brian C. (1999). Historical dictionary of Azerbaijan. Scarecrow Press. p. 4. ISBN 0-810-83550-9. Retrieved 2011-11-23. 
  6. ^ Buttino, Marco; Świętochowski, Tadeusz (1993). In a collapsing empire: underdevelopment, ethnic conflicts and nationalisms in the Soviet Union, Volume 28. Feltrinelli Editore. p. 189. ISBN 8-807-99048-2. Retrieved 2011-11-23. 
  7. ^ Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: History of Azerbaijan
  8. ^ Avery, Peter (1991). The Cambridge History of Iran. Cambridge University Press. p. 126. ISBN 0521200954. Agha Muhammad Khan could now turn to the restoration of the outlying provinces of the Safavid kingdom. Returning to Tehran in the spring of 1795, he assembled a force of some 60,000 cavalry and infantry and in Shawwal Dhul-Qa'da/May, set off for Azarbaijan, intending to conquer the country between the rivers Aras and Kura, formerly under Safavid control.This region comprised a number of independent khanates of which the most important was Qarabagh, with its capital at Shusha; Ganja, with its capital of the same name; Shirvan across the Kura, with its capital at Shamakhi; and to the north-west, on both banks of the Kura, Christian Georgia (Gurjistan), with its capital at Tiflis.  Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  9. ^ Baddeley, John Frederick (1908). The Russian Conquest of the Caucasus. Harvard University: Longmans, Green and Co. p. 71. Potto sums up Tsitsianoff's achievements and character as follows: "In the short time he passed there (in Transcaucasia) he managed to completely alter the map of the country. He found it composed of minutely divided, independent Muhammadan States leaning upon Persia, namely, the khanates of Baku, Shirvan, Shekeen, Karabagh, Gandja and Erivan (Revan till 1828)..." 
  10. ^ a b Bertsch, Gary Kenneth (2000). Crossroads and Conflict: Security and Foreign Policy in the Caucasus and Central Asia. Routledge. pp. 297: "Shusha became the capital of an independent "Azeri" khanate in 1752 (Azeri in the sense of Muslims who spoke a version of the Turkic language we call Azeri today).". ISBN 0415922739. 
  11. ^ Cornell, Svante (2001). Small Nations and Great Powers: A Study of Ethnopolitical Conflict in the Caucasus. Routledge. ISBN 0700711627. 
  12. ^ "Azerbaijan" Encyclopædia Britannica Online
  13. ^ Nafziger, E. Wayne, Stewart, Frances and Väyrynen, Raimo (2000). War, Hunger, and Displacement: The Origins of Humanitarian Emergencies. Oxford University press. p. 406. ISBN 0198297394. 
  14. ^ Kashani-Sabet, Firoozeh (1997). "Fragile Frontiers: The Diminishing Domains of Qajar Iran". International Journal of Middle East Studies. 29 (2): 210. In 1795, Ibrahim Khalil Khan, the wali of Qarabagh, warned Sultan Selim III of Aqa Muhammad Khan's ambitions. Fearing for his independence, he informed the Sultan of Aqa Muhammad Khan's ability to subdue Azerbaijan and later Qarabagh, Erivan, and Georgia.  Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Alborz, agreed in general, but I would like to reword it as follows (grammar, etc):
After Nadir Shah's assassination in 1747, the Persian Empire under Afsharids disintegrated. Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani, according to some sources [5][6], and as Iranian[3][7], according to other, that were sometimes de facto independent[8][9][10][11] or under nominal Persian suzerainty.[10][12][13][14] Khanates of Shirvan, Baku, Karabakh, Ganja, Quba, Shaki, Talysh, Erivan, Nakhchivan and other small city-states emerged within Azerbaijan north of Araks River. The khanates engaged in constant warfare between themselves and with external threats. The most powerful among the northern khans was Fat'h Ali Khan of Quba (died 1783), who managed to unite most of the neighboring khanates under his rule and even mounted an expedition to take Tabriz, fighting with Zand dynasty. Another powerful khanate was that of Karabakh, which subdued neighboring Nakhchivan khanate and parts of Erivan khanate. Tuscumbia (talk) 16:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I think we reach a good point because our main discussion is about the grammar . Because the large sentences are not clear , I write two suggestions as follows :

1- Several Muslim khanates, variously described as Azerbaijani or as Iranian, that were sometimes de facto independent founded under nominal Persian suzerainty.(Alborz's suggestion)

2-Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani, according to some sources , and as Iranian, according to other, that were sometimes de facto independent or under nominal Persian suzerainty.(Tuscumbia's suggestion)

Now I think the other editors can help as , as they are native English speakers and they are neutral . If you agree , I can ask the other editors to give a comment in choosing one the above sentences , or a third one that they see better than them .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Does the use of "founded" mean that these khanates were founded in 1747? Or did they exist before 1747 but achieve de facto independence in that year? Both versions are unclear on this. In addition, Version #2 has a problem -- a fine point of English that I think even many native English speakers would miss. To say both "described" and "according to" includes the same concept twice. Also, "other" should be "others". So I suggest a rewrite along these lines:
3A- Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani by some sources and as Iranian by others, were founded under nominal Persian suzerainty but were de facto independent.
3B- Several Muslim khanates, described as Azerbaijani by some sources and as Iranian by others, became de facto independent while remaining under nominal Persian suzerainty.
The choice between these two would depend on what the status of the khanates was before 1747. JamesMLane t c 14:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I think it is clear that all of the khanates were built before 1747 . It is clear by searching their article one by one . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Alborz. The khanates existed before 1747, but were under Iranian control until that year. After the death of Nadir Shah the central power in Iran weakened, and the khanates became de-facto independent. Grandmaster 21:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Grandmaster ! Long time , no see .... To be precise ,only the Qarabagh Khanate was built after Nader Shah (1747) , but still it had a period of relative dependency (read semi-control by central Iranian government) in the period of Karim Khan (1760-1779)--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Hi Alborz. You are absolutely correct on this, the Karabakh khanate indeed was the one that emerged after the death of Nadir shah, but others existed before. Grandmaster 09:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

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