Talk:Holy Cross Mountains Brigade

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Mikolajczyk's wife[edit]

I can't find the source right now, but didn't the Germans hand over Stanislaw Mikolajczyk's wife, whom they had imprisoned, over to the brigade? As a gesture of good will or something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:17, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

recognition of government in exile[edit]

Re: "They refused to recognize the authority of the Polish government-in-exile. "

NSZ-ZJ did recognize the Polish government in exile. Source [1]. What they didn't recognize was that the Home Army was the only legitimate resistance in Poland and the Government Delegation for Poland. Yes, I know this is a bit like recognizing the President of a country but not his minister, so it's sort of hair-splitting, but we should be accurate about it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:41, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Badge[edit]

Is this the correct badge? It appears to have a typo on it: "Bygada"

Accusations of Nazi collaboration[edit]

According to historian Jan Józef Kasprzyk, claims of the Holy Cross Mountains Brigade came as a product of postwar communist propaganda meant to smear the unit's legacy^[1]. Following the Second World War, Poland was under total Soviet control as a satellite state that implanted a communist regime that phoned straight to Moscow. It was frequent Soviet/communist propaganda to label Polish soldiers, including the Home Army themselves and other detachments, who fought against the Nazi German occupiers as "fascists" and "German collaborators" in an attempt to destroy and tarnish their legacy. In the whole of the Brigade's history, there has not been a single case of it's soldiers fighting side by side with the Nazi Germans nor murdering Polish Jews. It should also be noted that Poles of Jewish descent served in the ranks of the Holy Cross Mountains Brigade. No legitimate scholar to this day accuses the group of Nazi collaboration, only fables from Soviet/communist parties such as the People's Party, which then merged and formed into the Polish People's Party, the infamous one-party communist totalitarian state that dominated Poland from 1945-89 and which persecuted many Polish soldier, civilians, scholars, intelligentsia, etc. It is therefore in my opinion that the section regarding the accusation of Nazi collaboration be removed, rather than engaging in a Soviet historical revisionism. -185.41.130.3 (talk) 20:17, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Press, The Associated (2019-08-11). "Poland Honors Wartime Group That Collaborated With Nazis". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2019-08-12.

Per the cited AP piecs: "a World War II-era underground force that collaborated with Nazi German forces toward the end of the war in their battle against the Communists, who were imposing control on the nation." and "Although historians say the Holy Cross Mountains Brigade collaborated with the Nazis, a representative of the veterans, Jan Józef Kasprzyk, sought to deny such a link." - the fringe minority position of the veterans group is opppsed by mainstream historians.Icewhiz (talk) 20:27, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is you alone who made the claim that the denial of collaboration is held by a "fringe minority position". Nowhere in the article/sources provided does it say such, let alone mentions anything of the sort. Furthermore, there are no "mainstream historians" who claim that the group collaborated with the Nazis, only by communist parties/associations/organizations (Armia Ludowa, the People's Party, and the Soviet Union it's sympathizers). These groups' assertions are not to be taken at face value, given for their notoriety and history of lying and spreading revisionist lies from a communist/socialist/Marxist persepective. If you are so adamant regarding these historians, then it is up for you to source them; which would be happily accepted. The issue however lies in the fact that only allegations exist from communists, rather than any legitimate historians. -185.41.130.3 (talk) 20:43, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per the quotes above - Associated Press disagrees - stating collaboration in its own voice and weighing the denial of a PiS politician vs. historians, plural, who state otherwise.Icewhiz (talk) 20:48, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Associated Press does not disagree, again; these are your words alone. May I also ask you what does a historian's affiliation with a political party have to do with anything? Please do not bring baseless politics into this, what matters is his role as a historian; not his political affiliations. Going back to topic, as said before; actual legitimate sources are required to make such claims, not the words and allegations of communists (Soviets, PPP, etc.) who were notoriously known following a Marxist-Leninst historical revisionist agenda that labeled Polish civilians, soldiers, intelligentsia as "fascists" and "Nazi collaborators" and holding mock trials against them without a shred of evidence. Again, the words of these groups are not to be taken at face value, since the communist regime was implanted by the Soviet Union and occupied Poland following the war. If you can find actual historians who can support these claims, then kudos; but as said before, there are none and these claims are only made by Soviet and/or Polish communists. The fact remains that there are zero proven cases of the Holy Cross Mountain Brigade collaborating with Nazi Germany, let alone fighting side by side with them. -185.41.130.3 (talk) 20:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Icewhiz, whatever happened on your insistence that we "only use academic peer-reviewed sources"? Why are you insisting on AP here? Or are you going to try to argue, like you tried before with March 1968 events, that this isn't a "historical topic"? Or is this another instance of the "Wikipedia policy applies to others but not to me" WP:TEND approach to editing? Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:22, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So nice of you to show up. The IP introduced AP as the sole supporting source for their assertion. Looking at the supplied source (generally a RS, not as good as peer reviewed research), by the IP, it does not support their assertion.Icewhiz (talk) 04:05, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article is obviously on my watchlist, so apparently in the same way that you popped into Israeli Occupation of the West Bank just to disagree with me. You do seem to be defending using AP as a source though. I'm also not clear on why you admonish the IP for bringing up "political party affiliations" yet do the exact same thing here. Again, please make an attempt to employ some consistency in your words and actions.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:27, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The topic is certainly notable and should be discuss in-depth. I haven't looked at this in detail, but isn't [2] referenced? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:59, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have many times asked to define the notion collaboration and quoted a number of academic sources. German Profesor Lemberg has written sarcastically that everyone knows what collaboration is. Xx236 (talk) 08:35, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Polish sources are bad~[edit]

But gazeta.pl is OK when it accuses the Brigade. gazeta.pl is biased. Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Press, The Associated (2019-08-11). "Poland Honors Wartime Group That Collaborated With Nazis". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2019-08-12.

[1]