Talk:Hubert Latham

Hubert Latham School of Flying at Chalon - Rheims

Hi Sam,

I thought we could start accumulating snippets here.

Circa 1909 Dorothy Levitt attempted to qualify as a pilot at the Hubert Latham School of Aviation in Chalons near Reims France. (Before Amelia:Women Pilots in the Early Days of Aviation by Eileen F Lebow) Autodidactyl (talk) 11:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Dorothy levitt was at Chalon at the same time as ....

... Baroness Raymonde de Laroche, p39

... and Marie Marvingt. French Wiki and p39

by the following year [1910] she [Marie] had signed up for lessons with Hubert Latham at Mourmelon to learn to fly his antoinette ...... Marie was the only woman pupiil at Latham's school p39

This implies Schools in 1909 (Levitt and Laroche) and 1910 (Marvingt) Autodidactyl (talk) 13:07, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Mourmelon-le-Grand between Châlons-en-Champagne and Rheims Autodidactyl (talk) 11:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

French Wiki

Enfin, le 7 janvier 1910, à Mourmelon-le-Grand, il continuait la série de ses vols en hauteur, battant encore ses précédents records en atteignant 1 100 m d’altitude.

Finally, January 7, 1910 at Mourmelon-le-Grand, he continued his series of flights up, still beating his previous record by reaching 1 100 m altitude.

French Wiki - Leon Levavaseur

From 1909, Leon Levavasseur and his Antoinette company worked with the French Army to create the first military trials, a flight school and a workshop at Mourmelon. (This happened on the initiative of commanders Clolus and Laffont and Lieutenant Clavenad.) Antoinette built the first training equipment for the school to practice flying 'on the ground' - the "Antoinette barrel" was one of the first flight simulators. Autodidactyl (talk) 11:38, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Antoinette Trainer

References

Different schools at Camp Chalons

On the 25 ult. the Tsar of Bulgaria accompanied President Falliéres to Chalons to witness some manoeuvres. Unfortunately, the weather was not particularly suitable for flying, and so the Army flyers were not out. The pupils of the Voisin and Antoinette schools, however, made a few trials...

This from Flight Magazine archive, July 2, 1910, p.507: "Tsar of Bulgaria at Chalons"

This implies that there were different flying schools at Chalons, including one by Antoinette and one by Voisin. The Wikipedia article on Raymonde de Laroche states explicitly that she was trained by Voisin personnel, and therefore did not learn from Latham at the Antoinette school. No signature (talk) 19:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Further proof of two different schools No signature (talk) 20:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Je suis en d'accord,:) but she is prominent in the Latham / Antoinette group photo in Flight December 1909. Did she learn at both schools but prefer the Voisin? (the Ant was reportedly very difficult to master. Regards. Autodidactyl (talk) 09:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

ps. English Wiki needs an article on the versatile Mr Levavasseur. French wiki is interesting, but unsourced purple prose is not necessarily the best starting point.

Group photo at Chalons, Flight Magazine, December 25, 1909, p.830 Was this an Antoinette school photo, or a photo of who they could find at Chalons at the time?

Flight Magazine, November 20, 1909, p.748: "Activity at Chalons" This might have something to do with it: One of M. Latham's reported activities was flying with passengers, including Mme. de la Roche [sic]. Maybe the photo was taken around the time when Latham was taking passengers; other passengers listed in the article included Mumm and Somerset, both of whom were in the photo. The same article, however, includes Mme. de la Roche's activities in flying a Voisin biplane.

BTW, I've heard that the Antoinette was difficult to fly:

Taught to fly at Mourmelon le Grande by the famous Hubert Latham, she was the only woman to earn her pilot's license in the difficult-to-fly Antoinette monoplane. - Marie Marvingt and the Development of Aeromedical Evacuation - David M. Lam

Makes one wonder how Latham was able to take his hands off the controls and roll and light a cigarette. Then again, this is the same man who later took off in a similar aircraft in winds of about 25 mph...

An article on M. Levavasseur would be interesting, although I suspect that most of his exploits could be covered in the Antoinette (manufacturer) article. What I'd really like to see is an article on Camp Chalons. The camp is not mentioned in any of the following articles:

• Châlons-en-Champagne a.k.a. Châlons-sur-Marne, which would be the correct Châlons as it is close to:
• Mourmelon-le-Grand, a pitifully small stub, considering its place in aviation history, including
• Mourmelon-le-Grand Airfield, a USAAF installation during World War II.
• French Air Force doesn't mention it either, although I presume it must have been the very beginning of the French Air Force.

Respectfully, SamBlob No signature (talk) 10:48, 4 October 2009 (UTC) (I need to revise my signature)

Hi Sam, Camp Chalons at French Wiki yet more unreferenced nebulous prose but ... a rough translation... Autodidactyl (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

'Camp Châlons' is a French military camp located in Mourmelon-le-Grand, near the town of Chalons-en-Champagne (Marne). It was created at the behest of Napoleon III and opened August 30, 1857 during the Second French Empire.

The initial purpose was simply for practising military manoeuvres, but it quickly turned into a showcase of the French Imperial Army, a theatrical propaganda display, where French citizens could meet the army and watch parades. Each year the camp was transformed into a town of tents and wooden chalets.

The camp also served as a departure point for troops engaging in overseas operations.

The camp survived the fall of the Second Empire in 1872, but changed into a training camp.

It is now known as "Camp Mourmelon" and is circa 10,000 hectares whilst the neighbouring 'Camp Moronvillers' is 2,500 hectares.

The camp is used for military manoeuvres, and cavalry training, but firing of live ordnance (rockets, missiles) is prohibited.

Further reading (References)

• The Bonapartes in Chalons en Champagne (Les Bonaparte à Châlons en Champagne), by Jean-Paul Barbier and Michel Bursaux, Marnaise Studies (Etudes Marnaises), SACSAM, 2009.

Links

• History and photographs of Camp Chalons

... paste this in any article you wish. Autodidactyl (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

References

100,000 visitors

Ref for 100,000 visitors ... mostly google says 100,000 visitors in 2009 celebrated the centenary of one million visitors in 1909. "One hundred years ago, in August 1909 under the leadership of the great houses of Champagne, had held the first international air show in history, the" Great Week of Aviation in Champagne. Nearly one million people visited the event that truly marked a turning point in aviation history. But this is a blog. Not a reliable source. Autodidactyl (talk) 21:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing

La Guerre Infernale, Episode 2, January 1908

In 1908 Pierre Giffard anticipated WWII, (remarkably accurately), and Albert Robida illustrated it. I think they had seen Latham fly. Antoinette IV crossed with a dolphin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chienlit (talk • contribs) 13:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Possibly an Antoinette, not likely to be Latham. According to Flight magazine, Latham learned to fly in February 1909, after the publication of that book. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 14:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You're right. Perhaps Robida was even more far-sighted than I thought, .... or perhaps Levavasseur copied a comic! Chienlit (talk) 14:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Hubert Latham

copied from talk page of chienlit

Well that was a helpful answer and I thank you for it. I could add a ton of stuff on Latham (he's a distant cousin of my wife) but am not about to go into letters, postcards, in addition to French aviation magazines, articles, books, etc. to try to upgrade this site to "A" status. Just footnoting it is beyond me - I can't even footnote book citations any longer since I don't have an example at hand now that someone has changed the system. By the way, not that I want to change it, but the remark about a loose wire causing the Antoinette to fall into the sea on Latham's first attempt is not accurate, although Barbara Walsh (a friend of mine) wrote it so in her book. The actual fact is that no one is sure what happened to cause the motor to fail on either flight although plenty of people, including Wilbur Wright, had an opinion. Levavasseur, who was not about to accept any blame, felt it was because the two airplanes had something shaken loose in the engines when they were transferred from the camp to the take-off point (about a mile's journey over a bumpy and rut-filled road), part of the journey by being pulled by horses and part by taxiing under the airplane's own power. The idea of unfiltered fuel was raised by an aviator by the name of René Thomas who started as a mechanic for Antoinette Co. (after the Channel attempts) and rose to pilot status whose skills were second only to Latham. He swore that had he been employed by the company at the time of the Channel attempts he would have insisted the fuel be filtered, especially since Levavasseur's fuel-injection system was incredibly delicate and sensitive and the fuel used then was notoriously dirty. Anyway, thanks again for your comments.Shallerking (talk) 21:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Have to admit I can't make head nor tails out of your footnote instructions. I'll be the first to admit I'm a computer heathen so please don't try to make it simpler. I'll just let it go. After going through the site again I realize that if I wanted to really make the site at least more accurate I'd be destroying other people's entries ("first landing on the water" indeed. Since when is crashing into the water a "landing?") so I'll leave well enough alone. Thanks for your assistance. Keep up the good work.Shallerking (talk) 20:58, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

In reply to Shallerking's question:

Since when is crashing into the water a "landing?"

... I shall reply with the old saying:

:A good landing is any landing from which one can walk away. A great landing is any landing from which the aircraft can take off.

By this adage, Latham's first landing in the Channel was a good landing, but not a great landing. ^^;

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 16:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Article on Léon Levavasseur

I have created an article on Léon Levavasseur. I am asking for help in expanding the article so that it can meet the size requirements for a "Did You Know" entry in time for inclusion on the front page within five days. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 22:41, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The References Police are upon us.

Some months ago, the article was converted to a "template r" system of managing the references. It was a bit more complicated than the "ref" system, but it was more compact in the text and was better organized in the references section.

I took the time and effort to learn and appreciate the new system and then, one day, it's all gone. "Sorry, folks, we're going back to the old "ref" system! You have your simplicity back, sorry if you got used to the compactness and order!"

Such is progress, I guess. What next? Will "reflist" be thrown out and "references /" be brought back, too?

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 00:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That was me who reinstated the <ref name=/> templates. If the consensus is that the "template r" should be reinstated, please feel free to revert my amendment. An explanation follows.

It was Chienlit who introduced the "template r" system to this article in October 2009. And it was from Chienlit's implementation of the system in Vincenz Priessnitz on 15 November 2009 that I myself picked up the "template r" system. Chienlit himself picked the method up from someone else, who saw the List-defined references, originally notified as active on 21 September 2009.

What none of us anticipated in our good-faith implementation, was that anyone would raise technical issues in relation to the "template r". The main issues there are that bots and scripts don't always work properly with the template. It has been pointed out to us that it is possible to implement list-defined references to get the references out of the body of the article using <ref name=/> templates. I have acknowledged that, as has the editor who originally introduced Chienlit to the idea of list-defined references, and we have amended articles in which we ourselves utilised the template.

The "reflist" is not at issue. Nor is grouping the references at the bottom of the article, out of the article text. Not everyone likes that style, but in any given community of editors, they'll figure out whether it's worth their while or not. No, the only thing at issue is the "template r". And yes, some would like to see that go altogether. I personally have no opinion on the "template r". My sole purpose of utilising it was to implement what I now know are called list-defined references. Same for Chienlit. So if that's still do-able, to me, that's the main thing, when it's useful of course.

I know for certain that Chienlit never anticipated, nor intended to cause, any trouble from his implementation of the "template r". Unfortunately, he appears to have become collateral damage, so I have been doing what I could to reinstate some of his integrity, and reduce the amount of fuel around. It's a catch-22 you see. At any rate, please feel free to revert my amendments if that is the consensus. Regards Wotnow (talk) 04:54, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Article Revisions

As the academic (PhD) who was invited to assist Hubert Latham’s family descendants to preserve and notate his private papers, I continue to receive their kind full cooperation in respect of confirming points which may be contentious. Therefore I have once more arranged for a check of the content of this Wiki site as a strictly historical record, and, although it is tremendously improved, and excellently presented, I have found several errors which required minor adjustments.

The editing and copy editing, all done in good faith, in the past six months by several contributors have occasionally obscured the clarity of a few entries, and for this reason, minor corrections have been made to restore accuracy.

Wikipedia guide lines may have been overlooked by previous editors, such as the citation of a self-published historical novel WP:SOURCE. It is not appropriate to include speculation and fictional scenarios drawn from this work. Equally, these references do not, necessarily, reflect a neutral point of view WP:NPOV.

In respect of another, otherwise excellent and useful, but self-published, non-fiction piece of work, I have taken care to replace any of the un-verifiable statements and speculations, with alternative authentic sources. I found several statements based on supposition that were not backed-up by documented evidence.

Misquoted extracts (in one case the source cited was not accurate but a re-written and substantially changed version) have been repaired and restored to provide a correctly quoted and cited contribution.

I am aware of WP:COI. As the author of Latham’s only authorised biography I have striven to adhere to this guideline as scrupulously as possible. --Barbwalsh (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Will Hubert Latham's real name please stand up?

We have been told that M. Latham's full name was Arthur Charles Hubert Latham and that his gravestone was incorrectly engraved as Arthur Louis Hubert Latham. This has not stopped someone from "correcting" M. Latham's name in the first paragraph.

I would simply undo this, but there is no reference given for his full name. Can anyone who watches this article please provide a reference so that more robust measures for preserving his real name may be taken?

Thank you.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 23:25, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not see this until now. I have a scan of M. Latham's birth cert in front of me and his birth was formally registered as Arthur Charles Hubert Latham. This is later supported by his college registration entry. Barbwalsh (talk) 16:19, 29 May 2012 (UTC)