Talk:Persian language in the Indian subcontinent

Persian language in the Indian subcontinent (final version) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 26 August 2021 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

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Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because... (your reason here) IT IS UNDER CONSTRACTION PLEASE BE PATION --122.176.172.189 (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I say leave the article up for now. Persian influenced several languages in India. It is notable. I tried to clean the grammar up some as well as changing some spellings to the ones used in the Wikipedia article for that person. I will try to check in from time to time on the article and fix grammar if I can. I did not get everything fixed as some of it looks like it may be the result of attempted footnotes that did not get coded correctly, or else the most common translations of these names into English are spelled differently.500Afs (talk) 12:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Persian Translations

For Persian descriptions, it might be best to give the translation into English in parentheses as well as the phonetic spelling in the English alphabet. For example Akbar is described as "Insan-i-Kamil." That seems to be "???? Human," or more probably "???? Man" using insan instead of mard for man, but I know very little Persian so that is probably completely wrong. If someone could add the translation that would be useful I think.500Afs (talk) 18:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Takht e Agra crying table of the shaah.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Differences with iranian persian

http://books.google.com/books?id=nSdsnqWpuh4C&pg=PA8&dq=monshee+persian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mJ3cUM2dFKa-0QH7_4CYBA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=monshee%20persian&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=nSdsnqWpuh4C&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=aHovAQAAIAAJ&pg=PR3&dq=Indian+persian+modern&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tEzbUPfDBIrw0gHMjYDYAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Indian%20persian%20modern&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Exb_NBfBuZkC&pg=PR12#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9ONGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR6&dq=Indian+persian+modern&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X3XbUI6QL8P30gH4roCQCA&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Indian%20persian%20modern&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=aOtOAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR6&dq=Indian+persian+modern&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X3XbUI6QL8P30gH4roCQCA&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Indian%20persian%20modern&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=pZcIAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA231&dq=moonshee+persian+india+modern&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CaHcUPLAAeLh0gHU2oAo&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=moonshee%20persian%20india%20modern&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9m7YtGkY_G4C&pg=PA30&dq=moonshee+persian+india+modern&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CaHcUPLAAeLh0gHU2oAo&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=moonshee%20persian%20india%20modern&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 19:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_QxAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=moonshee+persian+india+modern&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CaHcUPLAAeLh0gHU2oAo&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=R_9GAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA83&dq=moonshee+persian+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=faHcUJSVGsbL0AGR24H4Ag&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ

http://books.google.com/books?id=yBfgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PP11&dq=moonshee+persian+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=faHcUJSVGsbL0AGR24H4Ag&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.com/books?id=NUQOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP5&dq=moonshee+persian+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=faHcUJSVGsbL0AGR24H4Ag&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw

Merge

It does not look too long that it cannot fit into the section of the Persian language article section that discusses influences on other languages.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 23:18, 8 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But it's quite a topic of its own. It definitely merits a standalone article, though of course it would be nice if this were expanded. – Uanfala 12:45, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Request for review and to do list

In the past few days I have made extensive edits to this article. Although there is further scope for expansion, I think many of the core topics have been covered. So I'm requesting that someone from the Wikipedia South Asia project review it and update its status.

Content-wise, here are some to-dos:

1. Add Pashto and Balochi - these were originally mentioned as being heavily impacted languages in the article, but I removed them since there were no citations. I did find some research supporting this view, but the extent of the impact seems unclear to me, and many sources are ambiguous about it. I think it has to do with the fact that these languages are Iranic and so share common descent with Persian, making evidence of Persianisation difficult to pick out. Hopefully future users can figure this one out.

2. Inscriptions: there was a section on Persian inscriptions in India, but it was written awkwardly, used no citations, strayed from the focus of the section, and had overlap with the history section that came later. I didn't have the requisite knowledge to improve the section, so I removed it. It might be worth adding back, preferably better written and with good citations.

3? Subsections for different languages under "influence on Indic languages" - it might be appropriate to discuss the impact of Persian on selected languages in dedicated sections. I'm hesitant about this since the details in the existing section are common to many languages, so I'm not sure how much there is left to say. However, Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu) has a particular relationship with Persian that goes beyond this. Something to look into. Gowhk8 (talk) 18:15, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: Incorporated information on Hindustani. Gowhk8 (talk) 14:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not add wrong Information !

Please note that the Sanskrit language was in india thousand years before invasion of Mogul or Turks , the second , Ghaznavid dynasty is not Afghan , they all were Turk! Azar Moghadam (talk) 18:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Read the info again, no one is saying that the Ghaznavids were Afghans. Read the Sanskrit part again as well. WP:COMPETENCE is required. Also you're yet to again explain why you removed sourced info as well. I would highly advise you to read WP:LEAD as well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the info because there were not sourced !! Adding Adding incorrect, unsourced content will diminish Wikipedia's credibility! Azar Moghadam (talk) 19:44, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You just said that you removed it because the 'Ghaznavids werent Afghan' and 'Sanskrit was in India thousand years before the Mughals and Turks'. Which is it then? Regarding the lead, again - read WP:LEAD. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I said that because the text in this article , gives the reader , this meaning that : Persian language, was spread in India by Afghans , which is not true plus it doesn't have the reliable source ! The same for spreading Sanskrit in India by Afghan and Turk dynasties ! It is wrong and there is no source for this statement plus " Great Iran " is and was not called Ajam ! If you do not correct these information I will take this subject to " Dispute resolution " page !

,Azar Moghadam (talk) 20:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Everything you're disagreeing with is mentioned in the body of the article with sources, which makes it okay to be unsourced in the lead, which you would have known if you read WP:LEAD. Dispute resolution won't help you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about wrong information? What we can do if there is wrong information ? If there is no need for sources , then I add my personal opinion as a sourced info to the lead and you can not delet them ! Azar Moghadam (talk) 20:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What you think is wrong and right is irrelevant in Wikipedia, and you can't add your own personal opinion as a source. You are now threatening to be disruptive, I would highly advise you to stop. We're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You still did not answer me that why some editors can add wrong information to the article or Lead whitouth having a reliable source, especially that The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article and in the whole article I did not see any information that support these wrong statements! What ever I told you was only an example and this looks like a threatening to you . So howcome you accept these personal opinions and consider them as a sourced information?! ?! Yes we are done here and I stop this discussion . I will take this subject to Dispute resolution! ! Azar Moghadam (talk) 02:10, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. To answer your first question: Afghan dynasties such as the Lodis and the Turko-Afghan Ghaznavids and Ghurids are discussed in the article body with sources. As per MOS:LEADCITE these sources do not need to be repeated in the lead. As for your second question: the article does not say Turkic and Afghan dynasties introduced Sanskrit, it says the opposite; Persian replaced Sanskrit. You also mentioned something about Ajam; a source has been provided for that which discusses at length the usage of that word. Hope this clears things up. Gowhk8 (talk) 05:07, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gowahk8 Thank you, Your answer was convincing . Although still I do not know what is the reason to use word Ajam for persians? And the source is not relevrnt and reliable, but any way , it is not that important!

Azar Moghadam (talk) 23:53, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You were literally told this earlier by me, as well as the bit regarding Ajam. And the source is indeed reliable, read WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong information !

May I ask you why there is no source about spreading Parsi language by Afghans And making Sanskrit as Literature language by Afghan and Turk dynasties ? ! Azar Moghadam (talk) 19:42, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why you're making another section, anyways, read WP:LEAD and you will get your answer. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I made a mistake to open another section. Reading WP:LEAD , Doesn't give me the answer! My question is : why these stetments are not sourced ?! These give us wrong information ! Afghans have no role to spread Persian language in India , the same as Sanskrit, sanskrit was in india , thousand years before Arriving Turks and Afghans in India.

Azar Moghadam (talk) 20:47, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic language in the Indian subcontinent

Is anyone interested in creating a similar article for Arabic? I can help out in areas relating to Bengal. @Gowhk8: please tag those who can help with this. SalamAlayka (talk) 15:08, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Will look around. If you decide to start a page yourself, the paper Arabic in India by Tahera Qutbuddin is a very informative source that I used for this page too; however, the paper gave me the impression that Arabic's role in the Indian subcontinent was minor compared to Persian, so I wonder if the topic would warrant a full article. Gowhk8 (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted edits

Hey @SalamAlayka:, I just reverted your recent good faith edits on this page, here were my reasons:

1. Bengali did have significant influence from Persian but not as much as languages that were closer to the north-western border (Sindhi, Punjabi, Kashmiri). This is also what the body of the article states with citations, you can review them to verify. Ultimately, I don't think the lead should disagree with the body. Additionally, it appears that Bengali had a greater Persian impact during the Mughal era than the Sultanate era; this is also something stated in the body with citation under the Bengal section.

2. 'India' in this article refers to a wider, more historical idea of India (think Indian subcontinent or Hindustan) and so north India is not just a few states in India but a blanket term for the northern half of the Indian subcontinent. This includes the Bengal region, so no need to state it again. I feel this is a better way to present the information because otherwise, we would have to list each affected region individually (Punjab, Bengal etc) which isn't concise and doesn't give perspective on a 'bigger picture', as a lead should.

I'm open to discussion on this though. Gowhk8 (talk) 18:36, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]