Talk:Isle of Noss

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Requested move 23 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus: been relisted twice, no prejudice against speedy renomination in order to gain consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 19:39, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Noss → Isle of Noss
Noss (disambiguation) → Noss

– Per WP:COMMONNAME this is the name on the OS and the one that the Gazetteer for Scotland uses. Out of those that have "Isle of" on the OS, most of the WP articles are at that location for example Isle of Stenness, also in the Shetland Islands. There are several other uses on the DAB page including 2 other settlements in Scotland, one also being in the Shetland Islands[1]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:55, 23 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 19:50, 30 December 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. SITH (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Rreagan007 (talk) 19:55, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Noss" is the common name of the island, and the island appears to be the primary topic for the name. Even if we did need to disambiguate, we do not disambiguate by adding "Isle" or similar – see WP:UKPLACE for the relevant naming convention – so we would disambiguate as Noss, Shetland. Isle of Stenness, cited above, in in no way comparable because Stenness is on the Mainland and the Isle of Stenness is the island offshore from Stenness that offers protection to its harbour. --Deskford (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
We have titled Isle of Arran that way and there is nothing else around with that name. Similarly Isle of Bute existed before the County of Bute. Noss, Shetland wouldn't be suitable as there is also a settlement on the mainland. WP:NATURAL provides that we can use an alternative name if it is also common (which given the cited sources above is), rather than needing to qualify it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:12, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting note: it seems that the two guidelines that are being used on different sides of the argument are WP:NATURAL and WP:UKPLACE. One more relist to allow community input on the opposing views. SITH (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The point of UKPLACE is when a given term is ambiguous (such as Slapton for example) there are multiple articles called "Slapton" so the title Slapton, Devon shows that this is a topic called "Slapton" and is located in Devon. Similar to the fact that Mercury is ambiguous so the planet article is titled Mercury (planet) to show that it is a planet called "Mercury". With Noss I am arguing that it is actually commonly called "Isle of Noss" so the qualifier "Shetland" would be redundant (per WP:COMMONNAME/WP:NATURAL). Along those lines, say there was an island called "Isle of Noss" in Highland we would then use UKPLACE and disambiguate it as Isle of Noss, Shetland. What Deskford is arguing is that the island is called just "Noss" and is the primary topic for "Noss", but if disambiguation was needed it should be Noss, Shetland because the island is called just "Noss". Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:39, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 10 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed, Noss is now a dab page. The fact that "Noss" would be the best name for this island's article if nothing else called "Noss" existed was not the main issue under consideration. Primary topic was. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 14:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Noss → Isle of Noss
Noss (disambiguation) → Noss

– Per WP:COMMONNAME (Ordnance Survey, Gazetteer for Scotland, Google Maps and Canmore) and WP:NOPRIMARY. The previous RM was closed in January with "no prejudice against speedy renomination in order to gain consensus". Given that at Talk:Isle of Mull#Requested move 27 May 2019 we got consensus to move the island to the OS name and make the short name a DAB and at Talk:Isle of Skye#Requested move 5 June 2019 we had consensus to move the island to the OS name but leave the short name to redirect to it I think we can revisit.

As noted "Isle of Noss" is the correct title per WP:UKPLACE because "Isle of Noss" is the name on the OS, there's no need to qualify it with "Shetland" or "island" because it has a full name. I would also point out that the OS uses just "Rona" for both and Hamish Haswell-Smith also uses just "Rona" for both North Rona (page 338) and South Rona (page 173) while acknowledging "North Rona" and "South Rona" as alternative names. But indeed we don't have North Rona at Rona, Outer Hebrides and South Rona at Rona, Inner Hebrides and while the use of natural disambiguation is arguable dubious, the best name would appear to be "Isle of Noss" here anyway. Although the OS is English based it should probably be used per WP:WIAN and as noted it is used by the Scottish islands book which notes that the OS maps for the island are 1:50000 Sheet 4 and 1:25000 Sheet 466. Isle of Arran and Isle of Bute are also titled this way and Isle of Lewis, Isle of Mull and Isle of Skye have now joined them. I would also point out that the Collins Britain Road atlas uses "Isle of Noss" even though it uses just "Arran", "Bute", "Mull" and "Skye" for those. As far as primacy goes the island has many more views [[2]] than Noss, Dartmouth but some of the PTMs get more views and there are 2 other (probably not very notable) settlements called just "Noss" and more places here. As with the Mull and Skye moves I'll provide a list of options below:

I think both the move to "Isle of Noss" for the island and the DAB to plain "Noss" should both take place but if not I'll provide a list of options below:

A move the island to Isle of Noss and Noss (disambiguation) to Noss. This is what was done with Mull.
B move the island to Isle of Noss as with A but leave the DAB at Noss (disambiguation) and allow Noss to redirect to Isle of Noss. I would also be happy with this option but its not clear that the island is primary for just "Noss". This wouldn't violate WP:PRECISION since the "Isle of" isn't disambiguation but its common name, similar to the fact that Thames redirects to River Thames, see WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. This is what was done with Skye.
C move the island to Noss (island) and the DAB page to Noss. I would strongly oppose to this option since it would force an artificial disambiguator on a less common title but I'm putting it because this was suggested in the previous RM. I also in this event used Noss (island) not Noss, Shetland because of the fact that there is a hamlet also in the Shetland Islands and thus would kind of be incomplete disambiguation but this is unlikely to be needed anyway given that "Isle of Noss" is at least a near equal choice.
Oppose it should be left as is with the island at Noss and the DAB at Noss (disambiguation).

Please indicate you're options by putting A, B, C or Oppose per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves/Archive 32#The utility and accuracy of ranked surveys or even list you're preferred outcomes in order such as "B, A, D, C" in which "D" can be used for "Oppose". Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:40, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. As a native Shetlander, I can tell you that place names in Shetland are a very contentious issue. There is someone currently employed here trying to sort out the mess that is the Ordnance Survey's choice of names for us. They are a throwback to the days when the original OS surveyors would approach a local dignitary to get the official names - who, in contrast to the local Shetlanders, was often a laird, minister or merchant, many of which hailed from mainland Britain, and so they inevitably introduced some very bizarre names and spellings. The names chosen by Ordnance Survey should definitely not be treated as gospel - quite the contrary, actually. Even as far back as the 1890s the likes of Jakob Jakobsen was correcting names recorded by the Ordnance Survey. Anyone here will tell you that Noss is the widely accepted name, "Isle of Noss" is one of these inaccurate names propagated by the Ordnance Survey. As for the Collins Britain Road Atlas or any of the other sources listed, I have no doubt that these are all simple copy-pastes in one way or another sourced from the OS name. Griceylipper (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:21, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Additionally - from Shetland.org:
  Noss Sound is a relatively new channel and was probably made by storm waves that breached the sandy spit that once joined Noss to Bressay. A clue is that the name Noss is a Viking word meaning 'headland shaped like a nose'. If it had been an island when they arrived in the ninth century they would certainly have recorded the fact in their name for the place and it would be 'Nossay' - 'island shaped like a nose'. There are physical traces of a gigantic wave along the Bressay coast south of Noss Sound, and also a legend of a clifftop croft washed out by the sea at Stobister.
  So it would appear that the word Noss on it's own (rather than "Isle of Noss") is, in this case, particularly important to preserve as a conveyance of its history brought forward in time. Griceylipper (talk) 02:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - You're best bet then would probably be to help Scots Language to get the OS to change the name, then WP can follow suit. But as noted many sources do indeed use this name (which indeed are probably from the OS) so its likely to mean that "Isle of Noss" is the common name. That said if the OS names are incorrect then we could question if the OS is a reliable source. Additionally while the OS doesn't return anything for "Hay Knowe", "High Knowe" only returns a place in Northumberland and High Corby Knowe in North Ayrshire. In addition to the Isle of Stenness discussed above do you also think that Isle of Fethaland, Isle of Gunnister, Isle of Nibon, Isle of Niddister, North Isle of Gletness, South Isle of Gletness, Isle of West Burrafirth and Isle of Westerhouse are also incorrect? Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - Well, I'm pretty sure Eileen Brooke-Freeman (the person responsible for the place names project I previously mentioned) has been in touch with the OS in regard to getting names fixed in the past. I'm not aware of how willing they are to have names changed. I also don't want to malign the OS too much here either - I'm sure for the vast majority of the British Isles their accuracy is very good, however here in Shetland, considering the history, they're not a very reliable source. I'm not sure what the relevance of the Hay / High Knowe is with regards to this case? The list of isles you've mentioned are in fact all correctly named - most places here with "Isle" in the name refer to very small islands which (at least at the time the Vikings arrived) were not permanently inhabited due to their exposure (the main exceptions being St. Ninian's Isle and Gluss Isle, which are peninsulas, not islands!) Noss was for a very long time inhabited, so it shouldn't have the "Isle of" added. The same goes for similar islands that were once inhabited, but are no longer, and are in the same sort of size range - Mousa, Papa, Papa Little, some of the many islands called Linga, South Havra, etc. The other reason to add the "Isle of" would be to differentiate an island from a settlement on the mainland with the same name. For example, the Isle of Stenness mentioned in the previous discussion, and, despite being named on the OS Maps as simply "Vementry", it is very often referred to the "Isle of Vementry", as the settlement on the mainland is also called Vementry. It's a complicated system, so it's no wonder these sorts of mistakes were introduced really, even leaving the fact that those that were asked to obtain the names really were not terribly qualified for the job a lot of the time. And as for the most common name, all you have to do is compare search results on Google for a reasonable benchmark of this - entering ("noss" "shetland") gets me about 86,800 results; ("isle of noss") gets me just 26,800. Even if you assume every instance of the latter search is included in the former, "Noss" on its own is still the clear winner here in terms of commonality. Griceylipper (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      - The Knowe example was because its mentioned here, the 1st source in you're last comment. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:39, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        Apologies - couldn't see what you were referring to! Yes, this name can be seen written in the old OS namebooks, perhaps this has been removed from more modern OS maps (for what reason I don't know). Griceylipper (talk) 23:21, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support A per detailed nomination and per provided analogous example of Mull. The article topic, described in the lede sentence as "a small, previously inhabited island" is not a natural candidate for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of a disambiguation page containing 12 entries. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:08, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support A 2601:541:4500:1760:5C04:6A81:78FE:E352 (talk) 19:29, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recreational dive site?

In category Underwater diving sites in Scotland, but no mention in the text. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 15:59, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]