Talk:Italian governorate of Montenegro

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Territory of military commander in Montenegro[edit]

I think I have read somewhere that this state was never functional and that Italians gave it up after the Uprising in Montenegro. According to some sources I read, civil administration of Montenegro was in hands of its military governor. Am I right?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I've never looked into it. Perhaps you should look for a source? Peacemaker67 (send... over) 08:46, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
I maybe did not understand Tomasevich (War and Revolution in Yugoslavia: 1941 - 1945, page 141 - "The Italians quickly dropped their plans for a regent and appointed a military governor.... with full control over both military and civil affairs in Montenegro and directly responsible to Mussolini."). If that is so, the uprising in Montenegro ended statehood of this entity because Italians decided to appoint Military commander to govern this territory. On the same page Tomasevich explains that Montenegrin separatists complained to Biroli that he failed to create independent and sovereign state but created military occupation instead. If that is so, after brief period of statehood, this state ceased to exist and it became some kind of the Territory of the Military Commander in Montenegro.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
So you knew there was a source that explained it, but didn't present it when you asked the question. Why on earth would you do that? Regardless, it is apparent from my reading of that section of Tomasevich that the Italians instituted a military government (under Biroli) over Montenegro after the uprising began. I checked Lemkin, and on p.590 he quotes a proclamation by Mussolini on 3 Oct 41 establishing a "Governorship of Montenegro", and refers to it as the "territory of Montenegro, previously a part of the former Kingdom of Yugoslavia and now occupied by the Italian armed forces". The article should include the "straight" military occupation post-invasion, the attempt to install a king, the high commissioner Mazzolini, the uprising etc, as well as the eventual military governorship under Biroli and briefly, di Prun. That (of course) ended when the Germans moved in as the Italians capitulated. The German set-up was a strictly "straight" military occupation under Keiper per Tomasevich 2001, p.147. I would support a move to Italian Governorship of Montenegro per Lemkin. The German occupation of Montenegro should probably be called just that. I can find no reliable academic source that uses Independent State of Montenegro. Bishop [1] while "ok-ish" on German orbat, isn't going to stack up against Lemkin on the political arrangements. Hope that helps. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Why didn't I present the source when I asked the question? I think that anybody who AGF could assume why. I was uncertain what was the source and I was uncertain if I was right. If I knew what was the source I would present it at once. When you asked me to present source I first searched several other sources I used in another article, including Lampe and Pawlovich. Only when I searched Tomasevich, who was fifth or sixth author I searched, I found this explanation and started using Tomasevich more extensively in article I write.
  • Almost every single comment you write to me is unnecessarily harsh and contains violation of AGF which made editing of many articles unpleasant for me and discouraged me from further editing. In order to avoid being subjected to this kind of treatment this will be my last comment in this article. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:59, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Frankly, you need to take a long hard look at your own behaviour. Your behaviour on other articles (related to this one) I have edited has been negative, nitpicking and you regularly fail to accept consensus you don't like. And you have been censured for it in the past. If you want to edit in the way you consistently do, you are going to need to expect to be challenged. We have history, Ad. I don't have to AGF everytime I interact with you, the clock doesn't get reset to zero everytime you make a comment. Just the idea that you think it should concerns me. If you were consistently collaborative and positive for a time, I would of course, adjust my responses. Regardless, my response was very helpful, achieved some consensus, and directed you to further sources. I even made a suggestion for a new article title that I assume you would be supportive of. That is the essence of collaboration on WP. If you are that sensitive that you can't see past a gentle questioning of your established modus operandi (asking rhetorical-sounding questions to draw comments you can then treat as a WP:BATTLEGROUND) to the useful part of the interaction, then you should do what you think is best. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:26, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Move[edit]

I propose this article be moved to Italian Governorship of Montenegro per Lemkin (see thread immediately above). The current title has no support from reliable academic sources. Lemkin, on the other hand, was an expert of occupied Europe and re-produces Mussolini's proclamation regarding the territory of Montenegro. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 11:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

"Governorship" doesn't seem like the right word, but it's a definite improvement. I support. Srnec (talk) 03:17, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi @Srnec: perhaps governorate would be better per Rodogno p.134 Also consistent with how some other Italian possessions are referred to per Governorates of Italian East Africa and Governorate of Dalmatia. Italian governorate of Montenegro is probably the best version, I don't think we can dispense with "Italian", because there was an Austro-Hungarian governorate of Montenegro during 1916-18.
@Navyworth: and @Good Olfactory: given you guys recently moved this article, could you have a look at the above? I don't think a RM is really necessary, it seems pretty clear the current title has no RS to support it, and I believe Lemkin and Rodogno are pretty good quality sources for the proposal. Just to be clear, I'm proposing Italian governorate of Montenegro. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:10, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Problems of uncited claims[edit]

There are many uncited claims in this article that is almost entirely unsourced.

  • 1) It claims that the territory was to be completely Italianized, that is a major claim and it needs a reliable source as a reference.
  • 2) Claims of numbers of people killed need to be attributed to a reliable source.

There are many more claims that need sources, but these are what I'm starting with.-- (talk) 03:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

agreed, it is almost entirely unsourced, that's why it has the captag. I'm not an expert on Montenegro, but I've never read the Italianised bit either. I actually think the really outrageous stuff should just be trimmed and will do that now. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:10, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Name change??[edit]

What's with the name change? The proclamation of 12 Jul 1941 by the Црногорски cабор (Crnogorski sabor) meeting in Cetinje states: "Проглашава се суверена и независна Држава Црна Гора у облику Уставне Монархије -Proglašava se suverena i nezavisna Država Crna Gora u obliku Ustavne Monarhije" ("There is proclaimed the sovereign and independent State of Montenegro in the form of Constitutional Monarchy"); later in the text of the proclamation, the style Краљевина Црна Гора (Kraljevna Crna Gora) is used.

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The 12 July proclamation was shelved (due to the uprising), the high commissioner was recalled, and Montenegro became officially known as Governatorato del Montenegro, with Biroli as military governor. It's well documented in the text of the article, and supported by Rodogno, Tomasevich, Pavlowitch and Lemkin. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)