Talk:Italiani brava gente

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Military history: Historiography / European / Italian / World War II

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Requested move 3 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved, per discussion below. Station1 (talk) 02:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Italiani brava gente → Myth of the good Italian – More easily recognizable and descriptive name and in English. When I first read the current title, Italiani brava gente, I didn't know what was this page about. "Myth of the good Italian" (with this capitalization) is used 237 times on Google Scholar, so it isn't a marginal name [1]. Super Ψ Dro 09:20, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Support per WP:USEENGLISH, catting the resulting redirect as {{R from other language|it|en}}. 85.67.32.244 (talk) 11:56, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. When I search on Google scholar for "Italiani brava gente", restricted to English language sources, I get 835 results, so the current name is nearly 4 times as common. Havelock Jones (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:USEENGLISH says it should generally be "the version of the name of the subject that is most common in the English language", not "in another language in English-language sources". I couldn't find it in any online English dictionary.

Also, at least one article says "the myth of the good Italian" with "Italiani brava gente" very close by, so you need to discount those. Subtract also results such as this one that are patently Italian, not English.85.67.32.244 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WP:USEENGLISH says "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject that is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources" (my emphasis). The wording could perhaps be clearer, but it doesn't mean anything other than WP:COMMONNAME. If you read the whole policy, it's clear that "use English" is a short-hand for "follow English language RSs": see in particular "If a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate, no matter what name is used by non-English sources." From the evidence I've seen so far, it seems clear that the current title is the one widely used in English-language sources. Havelock Jones (talk) 22:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Good Italians per WP:USEENGLISH, having looked at some of the Google Scholar extracts, it seems clear that "myth of" is not an essential part of the English phrase. Good Italian is possible, but I think the plural is better. 85.67.32.244 (talk) 18:57, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, current title appears to be the common name even in english. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:30, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I could maybe see a move to a descriptive title ("Portrayal of Italian participation in World War II"?), but think that "Myth of the Good Italian" is too idiosyncratic for this - it'd need to be a more attested COMMONNAME. Meanwhile, the Italian term sees at least some use in English per above comments. SnowFire (talk) 17:07, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The current sources show cited ample usage of the Italian language phrasing in English scholarly works - unsurprising given that it comes from a film title and therefore does not translate easily. WP:USEENGLISH applies, as discussed above. —Brigade Piron (talk) 22:13, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I think Havelock Jones explained it well. The next step would be rename Fusilli the myth of the helical pasta? No rename. Ode+Joy (talk) 21:57, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The current title is the commonest even in English-language sources. WP:UE does not mandate translating everything into English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:01, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.