Talk:Jaguar XJ220/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

The XJ220 is considered to be along the lines of the Edsel when it comes to spectacular flops.

Can someone find a good automotive-press source for this comparison to the Edsel? I think knowledge of the XJ220 is pretty much limited to car buffs, which is certainly not the case for the Edsel. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I think this comparison is fairly meaningless actually, and support its removal. Although the worldwide recession at the time of its launch didn't help sales, and resale values weren't that high, the XJ220 wasn't really a 'commercial flop' in the same way as others like the Edsel at all- it was only ever intended to be made in very limited numbers. Spute 16:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Wasn't the car first produced in 1991? I have a motoring interest book which says 1991-94 and an old copy of Top Gear on video which also says launched 1991. alexpritchard 20:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Although it was launched in late 1991, the production began in 1992 as the Bloxham factory was then manufacturing the XJR-15. U1Quattro (talk) 05:17, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

designer?

who designed the jaguar xj220?

There were several people deeply involved in the design of the XJ220 so it'd be difficult to pinpoint a single designer. The original prototype was conceived by Jim Randle, whilst Keith Helfet was in charge of styling. Richard Owen (chief engineer at JaguarSport) was responsible for turning the concept into a feasible production car together with Tom Walkinshaw. Daviddurban 13:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The engine was designed by Al Melling of MCD he was contracted by TWR. The %Jaguar engines were down on power due to old technology ,as tested at TWR 430bhp Mel135ling (talk) 02:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Al Melling was the witness in the court case Jaguar/220 clients.

Mel135ling (talk) 02:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

The engine picture in your article is AlMellings Engine as designed. See karl Ludvigson book the V12 Engine Mel135ling (talk) 02:43, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

See Al Mellings contract with TWR, (ref. Pual Wainright GLP Solicitors manchester) Mel135ling (talk) 02:45, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

RHD/LHD

Noticed the article doesn't include the respective numbers of RHD and LHD models. Anyone know the figures? Also, what's the difference between the XJ220C and the XJ220S? Is one the road homologation version? Cheers. Bumper12 01:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The XJ220C was the full race version of the XJ220, whilst the XJ220S was a road going version of the C. For homologation purposes, the standard XJ220 was used. The S was for those customers for whom 549 bhp just wasn't enough! Daviddurban 07:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheers Dave. Bumper12 18:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Been doing some research round the web, many sources say 69 were made RHD, though some say this figure is only approximate. Bumper12 (talk) 13:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Engine Change

I understand, from someone who worked on the XJ220 whilst they were at Jaguar, that the V12 was perfectly capable of developing more than 600 bhp and meeting the required emmisions and that the swap to a V6 engine was due to TWR's own political agenda of using an engine that they had already available to themselves. I also heard from a number of Jaguar employees who were there at the the time that many were quite bitter that TWR had seemed to have sold Jaguar short on the programme and that TWR's profits were put ahead of the car's original design intent. LewisR (talk) 15:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

size

I don't know the length of Jaguar XJ220. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.210.152.57 (talk) 03:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox updated with the dimensions. It was difficult to find a source that listed them though, and I'm not sure where he got them from. swaq 15:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

scissor doors

If you see Jaguar XJ220 with scissor doors, please upload photos of Jaguar XJ220 with scissor doors. I didn't see Jaguar XJ220 with scissor doors. Nagara373 (talk) 02:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The concept car had scissor doors. U1Quattro (talk) 05:21, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

XJ Related to Series

The article states that XJ220 is unrelated to other cars in the XJ series, however I'm pretty sure it was modelled off the XJ13, so I'm putting a citation needed tag for now. Daniel De Mol (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Top Speed ?

Where do the 213.478 mph (343.560 km/h) top speed come from ?

212.3 mph (341.7 km/h) were reached before removing the catalytic converters, 213 is factory claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drachentötbär (talk • contribs) 21:21, 14 February 2016 (UTC) removed the .478 now Drachentötbär (talk) 21:51, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Did some more fixes in the first section - took the exact top speed tested in 1992 for the XJ220 and added the source - the Ruf CTR did already 342 km/h in Nardo 1988 and was designated ‘The Fastest Production Car in the World’ in 1987 see http://web.archive.org/web/20000607131227/http://www.ruf-automobile.de/html/press_911_ctr.html - the McLaren F1 tested in Nardo was a pre-production prototype with less HP and different driving properties than the final product, not a production car (the tests 1994 were made with a prototype identical to a final version according to McLaren) http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/mclaren-p1/men-who-made-mclaren-f1 Drachentötbär (talk) 01:26, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Will you just drop the nonsense about the Ruf CTR - yes, it was as fast as a Jaguar XJ220, but it's a modified production car, Ruf did not make the car in their own factory from scratch, they took a Porsche and modified it. There's a Nissan which some other numpty keeps adding to this article too which is a modified vehicle. No question they're as fast as an XJ220, hell, there's all sorts of modified cars out there which will beat the fastest production cars, but as they aren't production cars themselves, they don't count. Nick (talk) 16:00, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

The Ruf CTR wasn't a modified Porsche, Ruf built the cars from bare chassis level, some parts were self-developed, some parts were bought from Porsche and other sources. Ruf was and is still registered as manufacturer and CTRs were built with Ruf VINs, if they were just tuned Porsches they couldn't be used in games without Porsche allowance.

(For comparison: the Henessey Venom GT is legally a tuned Lotus Exige with Lotus VIN, built in lower numbers than the CTR and most accept it as production car.)

It's normal that car manufacturers buy parts from others, McLaren had even the engine for the F1 produced by BMW.

The Jaguar XJ 220 which reached the 217.1 mph speed record was modified (rev limiter, catalytic converters) like you can read in the article, it wasn't even street legal any more, therefore this wasn't a production car speed record.

Guinness was wrong by just believing and writing down what the big manufacturer wanted, but at Wikipedia we shouldn't care about which cars are most famous and which manufacturers or fanboys cry the loudest, we should write the truth.

If you have the Guinness Book I suggest adding the relevant part as a quote to the article, this would be relevant and correct.

Your last modifications caused an article which isn't true so I'll revert them. Drachentötbär (talk) 01:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Your Ruf fandom is touching, but at Wikipedia we deal in facts which are backed up by a reliable source. The reliable source in this case, the Guinness World Records never once recorded the Ruf CTR as a world record holding production car. If you can provide some further evidence beyond a magazine article or press release which confirms the Ruf CTR was recognised by the Guinness World Records or another similar body, as both a production car and as the world's fastest car then we can modify the article to note that whilst the Jaguar XJ220 held the Guinness World Record, the Ruf CTR held a world record with a different entity. If you can't provide a reliable source, you can't re-write the article, simple as that. Nick (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Please quote exactly what is written in the Guinness Book of Records about the Jaguar XJ220 here. If you name it as source you should also be able to quote it.Drachentötbär (talk) 01:36, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

The fastest speed ever attained by a standard production car is 217.1 mph for a Jaguar XJ220, driven by Martin Brundle at Nardo Circuit on 21st June 1992. I've got the print edition of the 1994 Guinness World Records book, but you'll find enough to confirm this using Google Books. Nick (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Strange what Guinness accepts as "standard production car". The same (or slightly modified) text is even in the 1994-1999 Guinness books according to Google Books so the XJ220 held the Guinness world record for 6 years. Drachentötbär (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

"...owing to the circular nature of the track, a speed of 217 mph (349 km/h) is equivalent to 223 mph (359 km/h) on a straight, level road." I think this is nonsense by TopGear http://www.topgear.com/car-news/british/jaguar-xfr-news-jag-225mph-2009 or whomever, other cars were often tested at Nardo and often reached their highest speed there. We should either remove it or at least add an "according to" instead of selling it as a fact.Drachentötbär (talk) 01:35, 17 February 2016 (UTC) Autocar states this in their test, so it's from a reliable source but I still have trouble believing it. Drachentötbär (talk) 20:01, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Since not every magazine says so I added "some say" and examples. Drachentötbär (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

You're now getting the top gear rhythm aren't you? U1Quattro (talk) 05:29, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia isn't based on what an editor "thinks". It is based on collective thinking and as you have seen that the fact you have mentioned is confirmed by a valid source, you shouldn't have no reason to not believe it. You seem like you hate the XJ220 for some reason. U1Quattro (talk) 05:31, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Was the speed reached while testing at Fort Stockton 212.3 or 213 mph?

There's a contradiction between http://media.jaguar.com/news/2012/01/marking-20-years-launch-jaguar-xj220 and http://media.wix.com/ugd/98b542_6c3dd4c6112d4efd94bfdde470dc4df4.pdf Both the 213 in the intro and the 212.3 in the Guinness section are referenced to the same event so we should use one value for both.

I consider the 212.3 mph in the The CAR article about the Nardo test as the correct value, it's mentioned twice and more precise there. I can imaging a 212.3 value getting shortened to 213 but not a 213 value turned to 212.3. Drachentötbär (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

212.3 mph is the correct figure. U1Quattro (talk) 05:34, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

production car issues

The term production car is not clearly defined. Some even consider a total of 299 built and therefore the XJ220s too few for be called production, for others even a dozen is enough (EVO called the Dauer 962LM which was built in 1993 the 'fastest street-legal production car in the world'). The term 'production car' should be used with care, expressions like 'fastest production car from 1992-1994' shouldn't be used unless it's made clear that a definition is used which doesn't consider the McLaren F1 a production car.

Jaguar built 10 pre-production vehicles. Which of them can be considered production ?

The Nürburgring lap was made with a prototype. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DesFwgSvIW4 Jaguar themselves said it was a prototype in their video and didn't claim it to be production. The tests at Ford Stockton by Andy Wallace were made by the pre-production vehicle number 004, with still 6 to come before production started it was probably quite different from the final product. The Nardo high speed runs were made by pre-production number 009. Quote from the article about the test: 'The production cars will sound different, apparently,' said Brundle in his full-face helmet.Drachentötbär (talk) 02:38, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

There are multiple reliable sources which report the Jaguar XJ220 to be, at the time, the fastest production car in the world. We can only report in the article what those sources state, you're engaging in original research when you start trying to develop a metric for the term production car and by continually trying to add text to explain away why different cars were somehow faster, or how different claims were made, you're causing damage to an article that I and others spent a great deal of time and effort improving to GA standard. I'm continually having to remove your original research, along with other users trivia and atrociously written content which continually differs from the reliable sources which are presented in the article.

I readily accept there are cars which were reportedly faster than the Jaguar XJ220, and that the testing of the Jaguar XJ220's top speed and claims from Jaguar are sub-standard, but there seems to be a determination to ignore that dozens of reliable sources across the world reported the Jaguar XJ220 to be the fastest production car for a period of time in the 1990s, including the Guinness World Records.

I'd tend to think the real confusion is between road-legal and production. I would say, we've got the situation where the Jaguar XJ220, then the McLaren F1, then the Bugatti Veyron are the fastest production cars (and that's what the reliable sources say, including the Guinness World Records) but that there are many faster road-legal cars made by specialist tuners and modifiers like Ruf, Hennessey, Dauer and the like (and that there may be road-legal cars which are faster than the fastest production car at any given time, as appears to be the case with the Ruf CTR and XJ220). I would suggest, for a car to be considered the fastest production car, the car must be sold to the end customer by the manufacturer who puts the original VIN code on the car, not sold by them to a third party who makes changes to the entire vehicle, upto and including the VIN code. That appears to be consistent with the approach taken by Guinness World Records, most likely because determining, with the aide of manufacturers like Jaguar, McLaren and Bugatti, the fastest production car is easy and reliable. The difficulty in determining the fastest road-legal car, given the number of modifiers, tuners and race outfits which make such specialist vehicles would be impractical for a yearly publication, but it's something we can easily achieve here. Nick (talk) 12:48, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

There were lots of discussions and different opinions on dedicated sites so I fear we won't get to an universal agreement which cars qualify for production car and which not and it would take too much space on this site so I'd rather try to reach a site which works without.

There are reliable sources more or less seemingly contradicting each other (different meaning of production car used and other reasons), words have to be chosen wisely in this case.

An example: If the Guinness Books of Records 1994-1999 had called the XJ220 the fastest production car it would have contradicted what the car magazines had written about the McLaren F1, but they wisely avoided this phrasing like the plague and used "The fastest speed ever attained" instead. This way there was no conflict.

I guess our main problem is that we've different sources and reasoning and when changing many things in one go there isn't enough place in the comment bar to explain everything thoroughly, so let's discuss and try to get to an agreement step by step:

First section: "This made it the fastest production car from 1992 to 1994". None of the references makes this statement so where is it from ? Even the Jaguar homepage reference (#3, why do we need it twice in this section ?) claims only fastest "when launched in 1992". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drachentötbär (talk • contribs) 00:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

It's from a combination of the Jaguar XJ220 press release (which documents the 1992 date) and a now missing reference to the McLaren F1 (for the 1994 date). I'll have to look around and find that reference to reinstate it. There's also a reference which confirms the XJ220 held the record for the duration of it production run, which I'll look for too. Nick (talk) 13:08, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Edit - fixed with reference to [1] which confirms the Jaguar XJ220 was overtaken by the McLaren F1 in 1993. That's what was in the version of the article which was reviewed for the GA also, it seems to have drifted to 1994, presumably as that's the year the McLaren F1 went on sale, but a prototype went faster than the XJ220 in 1993 (and as the XJ220 was also a prototype in 1992, it seems reasonable to list 1993 as the date for the McLaren F1). Nick (talk) 13:25, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

What we're needing to do first is work out a fairly definitive list of fastest road legal cars, try and determine what the majority of reliable sources then consider to be production and what they consider to be modified, and then work out the timeline for where (or even if) the Jaguar XJ220 fits into the list. We're going to go around in circles if we don't start at the beginning, and I'd suggest we work from 200mph+ capable cars onwards.

The alternative approach is to stick solely to discussing the Guinness World Record, but that's not ideal given we have good reason to believe the McLaren F1 had already recorded a faster speed at the time the Jaguar XJ220 was first included in the Guinness Book of World Records. Nick (talk) 13:08, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Other cars faster than 204 mph I remember: 1987 Ruf CTR (342 km/h at Nardo 1988), 1988 Porsche 959s (339 km/h at Nardo 1988), Lamborghini Diablo (205 mph), Bugatti EB 110 GT (342 km/h), Bugatti EB 110 SS (351 km/h), McLaren F1, Dauer 962 LM (404.6 km/h) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drachentötbär (talk • contribs) 22:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Those were the same cars I'd thought about - the bulk of the sources I've found tend to support the Bugatti EB110 (though not which variant) holding the record before the Jaguar XJ220. Top Gear Magazine is suggesting Ferrari F40 → Bugatti EB110 → Jaguar XJ220 → McLaren F1. Evo magazine suggest it's actually Bugatti EB110 GT → Jaguar XJ220 → Bugatti EB110 SS → McLaren F1 (though the Bugatti EB110 SS may have gone faster than the XJ220 after the McLaren F1 did, they're not clear). Autozine supports EB110 → XJ220 → F1. CAR in one of their reports appears to suggest the EB110 (212.6mph) was faster than the standard XJ220 (212.3mph) and slower than the version with the catalytic converters removed (217.1mph). Evo take this further and suggest that the Ruf CTR was recorded at 212.5mph, which would put it before the EB110 and XJ220 in the list, though they talk about the fastest road cars, and don't discuss production in any sense. Hope that helps. Nick (talk) 20:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

As for now the Guinness World records require a manufacturer to build at least 25 cars for their vehicle to qualify as a production car. U1Quattro (talk) 05:39, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Nürburgring lap record

End of first section: "The Jaguar also held the Nürburgring production car lap record between 1992 and 2000 with a time of 7:46.36."

This statement isn't made in the sources given and should be altered.

The EVO article given as source talks about a 1992 record (not about it lasting) but it's also qualified that others ignored this run and claimed other times as records, "make of that what you will". In a 2012 EVO article by Chris Harris wrote about the lap that there wasn't much anecdotal evidence to draw from except sources from Jaguar.

On the one hand we have sources which record later and slower times as production car record http://web.archive.org/web/20090719063517/http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=124427 http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/10/01/avoidable-contact-17-cheating-nissan-bitter-porsche/, on the other hand we have reports of the Bugatti EB110 lapping in 7:44 like http://www.fuoritraiettoria.com/4-ruote/la-bugatti-italiana/ , the McLaren F1 (the same car which was in the Guinness book as production car for the speed record) in 7:11 in 1996 http://www.evo.co.uk/features/18801/ring-kings-the-fastest-nurburgring-lap-times contradicting the "lap record between 1992 and 2000" statement which looks like poor original research here.

For Jaguar it was worth saying in their promotional video (the original source for the claims https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNDzQPzd1aQ) that the lap was driven in a prototype, it's worth adding the info here too. Drachentötbär (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Editorialising

@U1Quattro and Drachentötbär: just to clarify, in this edit I did not remove any of the quote from Car magazine, I simply removed the "Quote" template - which I felt over-emphasised the quote - and moved the quote to after the paragraph about the Guinness record entry. My reference in the edit summary to WP:EDITORIAL was in relation to the use of the word "despite", which I correctly removed per WP:EDITORIAL (i.e. WP:EDITORIAL was not misused per a later edit summary), which contrasted the decision by Guinness to include the record with the item in Car magazine. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:31, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• XJ220@Abbey Panels.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:22, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

RACING

@U1Quattro: I am a newbie at editing and need some guidance. I recently expanded upon a paragraph in the description of the Jaguar XJ220's racing history. I fully explained the reasons for my changes in the talk box, and included a link to the 1993 Italian GT Supercar series, along with the statement that I had recently come into possession of knowledge not reflected here (specifically, I own TWR chassis XJ220-N 003, one of 3 XJ220-N cars produced by TWR in 1993, and know the owners and locations of the other 2), but I did not include my ownership for various reasons. However, the link to the 1993 Italian GT championship clearly lists the other 2 cars and their drivers, as well as their results in each race. I see that you reverted these changes, stating that "there were no reliable sources in support of this". I am unsure what "this" refers to, as I added a number of facts about the car (number produced, type of modifications, competition history). Based upon personal knowledge, there were 3 cars built by TWR, not one car as was previously stated, and as the owner of one of these cars I can attest to the modifications made to the car as far as reduction in weight, changes to chassis, suspension, brakes, and engine, which I would not consider "lightly modified". I am not well versed in how to use the editor, and I would like to know what I did wrong that caused you to remove my edit so that I may offer more substantive information in the future. However, the original entry that was reverted to is clearly incorrect at least in part (there are a minimum of 2 independently verifiable cars in case my personal ownership and experience with the third car is not considered a reliable source). As the only XJ220's to officially win a race and finish on the podium multiple times (win at Vallelunga, 1993, while the 1993 LeMans XJ220C had it's class win revoked for some bureaucratic nonsense), I felt that these cars represented an important part of Jaguar's competition history. Kindly let me know which parts of my edit are unsupported, and what type of evidence would constitute support. Thank you. Drsolly57 (talk) 21:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I took quite a deep dive into this and found just about nothing. I think racing for one year in a not so remembered series does not leave much trace on the internet 27 years on, the only way I think this is going to work is if you can find and digitize some documents or other info, because information about these cars is just not available. Toasted Meter (talk) 11:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Drsolly57: Any period magazine sources should suffice; you don't have to actually digitize them (although it is pretty easy to take a cell phone photo). I will be happy to assist in formatting any such references. As a side note, it would be great if you could upload pictures of the XJ220-N! Thanks,  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I found a chassis number for the #12/17 Top Run car (here), SAJJEAEX8AXXPO107. Also this quote: "Although the team may be new to many followers of international touring cars, Top Run have been involved in circuit racing previously, and were the first team to race the iconic Jaguar XJ220 anywhere in the world in 1993 when they competed in the Italian GT Championship in a Martini-liveried car." (here). Was your car #52 at the 1993 Le Mans? Or I guess it's this one? Here is more facts, some of this should suffice for citations. Congratulations on an awesome car. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  02:27, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

That it did race is not very hard to prove, I just can't find any specifics about the race cars. And I don't think we can/should use a enthusiast site or article based entirely on on a for sale ad. Toasted Meter (talk) 04:34, 7 June 2020 (UTC)