Talk:John Laurence

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Mztourist, an amateur military historian who has been active on Wikipedia since 2010, recently (Jan 2018) created a new page biography on Wikipedia of John Laurence, the former television correspondent for CBS News, ABC News, PBS and several publications including Esquire Magazine, the New York Times, the Columbia Journalism Review and others. Mr. Laurence has long been regarded by most of his colleagues as "the best television correspondent of the Vietnam War." His coverage of the war received every award for broadcast journalism, and also the George Polk Memorial Award (1970) of the Overseas Press Club of America for "best reporting in any medium requiring exceptional courage and enterprise abroad." Mztourist based the bulk of his information on references from Laurence's prize-winning memoir of the Vietnam War, "The Cat from Hue: a Vietnam War Story" (2002) which is 864 pages in length. From that comprehensive history of Mr. Laurence's reporting of the war, Mztourist chose only two anecdotes (out of scores covered in the book) to include on the new page: a report on the killing of allied soldiers by U.S. Marines during a battle in the A Shau Valley (1966) and the recreational use of marijuana by Mr. Laurence and a few of his young colleagues in Saigon (1965-66). Mztourist characterized the report on the killings as having caused "outrage" when it was broadcast without specifying that the only outrage was in hierarchy of the U.S. military, and the Saigon social gatherings as having consumed "large quantities of marijuana" to give the impression that Mr. Laurence was a drug addict, which he was not. Both references seem to me to be an attempt to denigrate the reputation of Mr. Laurence, who is still alive, and, by extention, his book. Every major U.S. newspaper that reviewed the book gave it highly favorable marks. Attempts to edit out those Mztourist references have met with anger and hostility on his talk page, and continued accusations of my alleged attempts to "sanitise" the history. Mztourist uses references whose emphasis on "outrage" and marijuana use are, in my opinion, open to debate. Nowhere in his book does Mr. Laurence use the terms "outrage" to apply to the reaction to the allies being killed story, or "large quantities of marijuana" being consumed in Saigon. In his choice of language and editing, Mztourist appears to be an apologist for the U.S. military--a pro-military writer and interpreter of military events. While I have been reading Wikipedia since 2008, and have been a generous contributor to its funding, I am new to editing at this level. I am trying to learn the intricacies of referencing and editing correctly and in doing so have made many mistakes. It is not easy to learn. To these, Mztourist has responded with impolite criticism, sarcasm and insults. It has become now what might be considered an "edit war." I wish to end it. I have been adding, bit by bit, more relevant information about Mr. Laurence to the new page in an effort to provide a better history of his professional life. But Mztourist has been hostile to much of this. He acts like a tyrant, with no sympathy for a newcomer to editing on Wikipedia or another point of view about Mr. Laurence's reporting of the Vietnam War. Onward&Upward (talk) 07:35, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

User:Onward&Upward who has been on Wikipedia since June 2008 claims to be related to John Laurence, see: [1] and therefore is not a neutral writer. Despite having been on Wikipedia since 2008, Onward&Upward is not familiar with the most basic policies and procedures, such as providing WP:RS (something which I pointed out to him/her on 1 February: [2] nor how to reference despite seeing numerous examples of how to do this on the page (actually it is easy to learn, you just copy another experienced editor which is how I learnt it). Yes my primary source material was John Laurence's book, the Cat from Hue, which as I explained to him/her I enjoyed sufficiently to start this page about Laurence, see [3]. As the book focuses primarily on Laurence's Vietnam reporting that is what I included in the page. This page is about John Laurence's life and not about the Vietnam War generally or other unrelated matters, such as whether or not Sam Castan received a posthumous medal. I selected events in which Laurence played a key role such as his reporting of many battles including A Sau, Con Thien and Hue. In relation to Laurence's report on the interview with Lt Col House, following the Battle of A Sau (which Onward&Upward repeatedly tries to Americanize to the Battle of A Shau), the official Marines history states that the interview "caused some furor" and that Secretary of Defense McNamara requested an investigation into "unfavorable TV and press releases in the U.S.", which I abbreviated into saying this caused "outrage", how exactly does this denigrate Laurence or make me an apologist for the US military? As Laurence was friends with many of the other somewhat famous young Vietnam War journalists such as Tim Page, I included a mention of "Frankie's House" (which itself has a Wikipedia page about the TV series), Laurence himself discusses the frequent marijuana use there, but Onward&Upward repeatedly tried to remove all reference to this: [4], [5], [6] on the basis that I was implying that Laurence was a drug addict. I referred Onward&Upward to Laurence's book and Tim Page's book that both speak to the frequent marijuana use here: [7], Onward&Upward has repeatedly deleted the reference to Tim Page's book: [8]. Perhaps I should also mention the opium smoking which Laurence also refers to in his book? I asked Onward&Upward to focus on productive edits rather than edit warring with me over trivial points such as who actually lived at Frankie's House and to learn to reference properly: [9]. Onward&Upward has added additional information regarding Laurence's career outside of Vietnam, but in several cases has only provided references for the existence of certain events (e.g. DNC 1968 and the Chicago Seven trial [10]) and not Laurence's reporting of them which is inadequate. In all cases Onward&Upward has made no effort whatsoever to reference sources properly which has become completely frustrating for me tidying these up. I do not believe that I have initiated any "impolite criticism, sarcasm and insults", rather these started with Onward&Upward's initial comment on my Talk page on 21 February here: [11] and have continued up to and including the comments above questioning my knowledge and integrity. I will readily admit that my edit summaries have become more curt as I continue to revert Onward&Upward's edits which do not accord with WP policies and procedures. Onward&Upward cannot describe him/herself as a "newcomer" and is not entitled to rely on the indulgence that might be granted to a newbie, rather s/he has persistently ignored WP policies and procedures, does not adopt WP:NPOV and has done everything possible to sanitise any perceived criticism of John Laurence. By the way Wikipedia is completely different from WikiLeaks. Mztourist (talk) 10:21, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Adding to Mztourist being impolite, sarcastic and insulting in criticizing Onward&Upward for trying to edit the page on John Laurence impartially, we can now add cynicism, as in this newest insult: "By the way Wikipedia is completely different from WikiLeaks." Mztourist is a WikiBully. Onward&Upward (talk) 10:53, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Oh so now I'm sarcastic for pointing out that you stated that you "have been reading Wikileaks since 2008, and have been a generous contributor to its funding"? I will give you a day or so to fix your changes on John Laurence, if you don't then I will seek to have you blocked/topic-banned. Mztourist (talk) 11:27, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Apologies for mistake

Sorry. I didn't mean to type "Wikileaks" when I meant Wikipedia. It was an honest mistake. My apologies for calling you sarcastic for correcting me. I have been a casual reader of Wikipedia as a source of information, like an encyclopedia, for ten years, but I have never tried to use WP:RS before, nor did I understand the importance of sourcing, footnotes and the way Wikipedia works to maintain objectivity. I am still learning the guidelines for this kind of editing activity on Wikipedia, so I'd appreciate some slack. Your threat to have me blocked is very much in keeping with your bullying nature. You skip straight to the most intimidating threat you can think of, don't you? Getting a third or more opinions, using the dispute resolution procedure, or finding other solutions are not in your arsenal, are they? I find your arrogance in an otherwise civilized forum incredible. Onward&Upward (talk) 13:45, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Whitewashing marijuana usage again, December 2021

User:Spotting Errors, stop whitewashing details of his marijuana usage again. Laurence referred to it himself in his book as have other sources and so it is suitable for inclusion on this page. You removed this detail back in June 2018 without explanation and now are trying to do it again. Mztourist (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)