Talk:Jutta Hipp with Zoot Sims

contemporary reviews

Shouldn't be all that hard for some good Samaritan wiki editor to dig up a Downbeat or Jazz review from the time of this LP's issue and summarize it?  :-) HammerFilmFan (talk) 17:12, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Or even add something from the sleeve notes by Leonard Feather? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:56, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Jerry Lloyd - trumpet

Surprising that Lloyd has no article yet. His discogs entry shows 21 credts. He was Sims' regular trumpeter at this time. Leonard Feather also suggests, in his sleeve notes, that he later went by the name of Jerry Hurwitz on the New York music scene, but then became a taxi driver. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:02, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Removed liner notes

Writing in the liner notes for the album, jazz critic Leonard Feather said:

The total effect to be observed on these two sides is similar to what you would experience if you happened to drop in one night at Basin Street or the bohemia and found Jutta Hipp sitting in with Zoot's combo. The same laissez-souffler (or man, let's blow) spirit; the same concentration on individual expression. In fact, everything is there but the audience applause; it only remains to be hoped that you'll feel like providing it yourself.

TlonicChronic (talk) 19:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Yes I agree, those were the liner notes you removed. Thanks for copying them here. But why? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe they might be copyright infringement, and liner notes aren't critical reception TlonicChronic (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I see. Well I guess they are not yet public domain, since although they were written in 1956-57, Feather did not die until 1994. They were all in a quote box, and very clearly attributed? Quotations are generally considered not to infringe copyright, unless they are very long. The 75 words here don't seem that excessive. This is the sort of material that quote boxes are designed for? Perhaps we'd need to ask a Wikipedia copyright expert like User:Diannaa.

When you say "not critical reception", yes perhaps they were misplaced in the "Reception" section, although they are a kind of expert critical appraisal. But surely they are just part of a full description of the record, an essential and unique feature of the packaging. They also offer an assessment of the music by a notable jazz expert. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:22, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

If there's a copyright expert here that says it's okay, I'll gladly go along with it.

It isn't an independent source, and it isn't journalism or criticism because it was paid for by Blue Note; I don't think when he died should matter.

It should serve some other purpose, like supporting commentary. But I don't think a stand alone excerpt from the liner notes with no extrinsic purpose makes a valid fair-use claim. TlonicChronic (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you think liner notes can never be included in album articles? I quite agree it wold have been paid for by Blue Note, but I'd say it's on the borderline of journalism/ criticism. Most people know what liner notes are, or ere in the 1950s/60s? They usually say, in so many words, "this is one of the best albums you'll ever hear". But it's the way they say it that matters. I don't think Feather would have put his name to any old rubbish. He was after all a highly respected jazz critic. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure (but definitely not a lawyer of any kind) that it's totally okay to use a portion of the liner notes to support some extrinsic purpose in the article, as long as the portion isn't a substitute for reading the notes themselves. (Also, I enjoy Feather's writing and don't think him being paid to write liner notes is a knock on his integrity at all; I think it's really cool that he wrote so many liner notes during Blue Note's hayday. I'm just worried they shouldn't be included in the article as it stands. Who paid for it matter for copyright, though: it belongs to Blue Note, not to Feather). TlonicChronic (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see. A fair point. And the article would be better with more independent material appraising the album. Most journalists get paid, often for fitting in with what the editor wants. If you don't think the whole section is "fair use", would you say a portion of it could be? We may not want the reader to use a portion of the notes as "a substitute for reading the notes themselves." But most readers will probably not find those notes anywhere else, unless they find a copy of the album? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I think there probably has to be a way of using it, but it wasn't obvious to me at first sight. Maybe a background section with a sentence on how the label was trying to capture the live feel, with a sentence fragment from the liner notes supporting it? TlonicChronic (talk) 23:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@Martinevans123 My opinion: The article only has 59 words at present, and the liner notes quote is 76 words. I think the size of the quote is too much for a wee stub. — Diannaa (talk) 23:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, many thanks for your timely input. So not a copyright problem per se? If more material could be found to de-stub, perhaps it could be added back. Do you think any part of the notes might be used at the moment? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:32, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

You are correct; it's not a copyvio per se, but a bit excessive for non-free content. You might consider paraphrasing the comment, for example: In the liner notes, jazz critic Leonard Feather comments that the album has a relaxed feel, similar to what the listener might experience at a live performance. — Diannaa (talk) 14:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

No objections. Thank you for clarifying. I think liner notes could probably be linked. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

References