Talk:Jötunn

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I have previously had additions regarding Old English attestations of "thyrs" (OE cognate of thurs) and eotenas removed on the grounds that they are Old English and references to a thurs not a jotunn. If this topic is indeed not relevant here, my added section regarding Beowulf and the flood should also be removed. Furthermore, if a thurs is not to be discussed, my addition regarding attestations in the rune poems regarding thursar should also be removed. Given that the use of jotun and thurs have such a close overlap, they should both be fully discussed. My opinion is also that Old English sources that are contemporary to the Old Norse sources and discuss beings in a consistent manner with the Old Norse sources should be included. Due to the sparse OE attestations, any page solely on them would be a stub and away from a useful context which sheds light on how they may have been perceived. --Ingwina (talk) 19:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Thurs

This article says:

“ "Thurs" is also the name of the rune ᚦ, which later evolved into the letter Þ. ”

However, Thurs is mentioned nowhere else in the article. Who was Thurs? — Reinyday, 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)‎

"Thurs" means Þurs, another word for Jötunn (mentioned in the article). The letter Þ (thorn) is pronounced Th, as in "thorn". I altered the spelling for consistency. - Björn Ómarsson 03:24, 11 December 2006‎ (UTC)

Thurs is a reference to the HrímÞursar, or the frostgiants, the god's undisputed rivals, and the thurs rune is both a reference to thor our protector, the slayer of giants, and the ones he protects us from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk) 04:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The letter thorn is the anglo-saxon version of the elder futhark rune, Thurs, they even called their runic alphabet, to mimic the sound of the name: The Futhorc, which was inspired or directly influenced by the old norse elder futhark, so the difference is the region and its representation, it is no name, but may relate to Thor and the dangers the frostgiant pose. in anglo saxon it means protection, and there's a link to the reason why we would plant rose bushes around f.x churches and graveyards. it is in the word 'thorn', this rune represents the treachery of the Frost Giants their dangers. yet there are specific runes dedicated to certain gods.

In example: Fehu first of the runic Ætts (eight rune line/family) dedicated to Freyr, aka Freyrs ætt. next we have Hagal/hagalaz, which begins the ætt dedicated to Heimdalr. Heimdals Ætt last but certainly not least we have the Tiwaz rune, dedicated to Tyr and his sacrifice, as he became the one-handed god. aka Tyrs Ætt.

Tiwaz-Tiwaz-Tiwaz (invocation of the god tyr)

Thurs, may very well have been the rune used to invoke the god thor or even the frost giants themselves. (for protection against the giants) - Rex Jensen 05:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk)

Muspellheim - Jotun?

In the article Surt and his race from Muspellsheim are classified as Jotuns, to my knowledge on Norse mythology, they're entirely different beings. The Vanir comes from Nivlheim, world of frost and mist, the Aesir ( Æsene) and the Jotuns where created in the void between Nivlheim and Muspellsheim, the world of fire, where the creatures ar reffered to as Muspells. And there's also indications on that both the Muspells and the Vanir existed before even Ymir came to be. Almost nothing is known about the Muspells, since they don't really show their face until Ragnarokk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.58.227 (talk) 15:41, 21 September 2009‎

.... The sons of sutting will march across the rainbow bridge Bifrostr and crush it as they enter asgaard. Muspelheim, is the fire realm, yet there is another jotunn family known as the sons of misblindi, aka the Fornjót ætt (meaning bloodline of fornjót or directly translated: family of the elder jotunns, their names are: Kari (wind giant) Hlé also known as Aegir /Ægir (god/giant of the sea with his spouse Ran) and of course, the giant of fire himself, LOGI! (not to be confused with the sly one, Loki) actually the root of his name can still be found in old danish terms "Lue" meaning: ablaze, in example: skoven gik pludselig op i lys lue - 'the forest suddenly went bright ablaze' but it has another connection, løgn/lugi/lygid which means a lie told to lead others astray, in danish, swedish, icelandic and even faroese tongues to some extend. the flame will tell you: "come closer, all is safe, it is warm and cozy here, and i will not harm you" yet as soon as you touch him he will maniacly laugh you in the face and you will get burned. that is just one example of how we keep confusing Loki and Logi with each other, it's easy to see why though. Logi is the father of the flame, its very personification, where Loki is the father of Lies, the great wolf Fenrir, Jörmungandr and Hel, and the bringer of ragnarok. a harbinger of doom and to some, he is the very personification of all chaos. But it is no less true, not much is known about muspels sons, unless we talk about from whom odin stole the mead of poetry, after seducing his daughter and tricking her to give him three sips of the mead kept hidden inside of a mountain only to crush her heart and leave in the form of an eagle, spitting the mead he had been seeking to find for so long into the three containers; Boðn, Oðrærir and Són. The name of the afore mentioned lady in the mountain, is none other than the lord of muspels daughter 'Gunnlöð' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk) 05:16, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Frost Giants

I was redirected to this page after searching for the term "Frost Giant," though the word "frost" does not even appear in the article. I am assuming, due to the use of the term "Fire Giant" that this term is not a misnomer. Does anyone know the story of this term? Shouldn't redirects always have an obvious reason within the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.77.189.134 (talk) 07:44, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

This is most likely because the Marvel universe adopted the Jötunns as villains in their Thor universe under the name "Frost giants". I will instead redirect it to this article on them. AndreasBM (talk) 17:38, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

The lead section does use the term "frost giant" now. wbm1058 (talk) 19:21, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Not currently. What you cited in the reversal was from the Giant#Norse_mythology page. But shouldn't the Marvel universe be the first redirect? Or would you say it is common to search for "frost giants" when looking for the jötunn? (I am Danish, so it seems weird to me, but I am of course heavily influenced by my culture). EDIT: I have pondered the question, and I find "Frost giant" to be an unacceptable primary redirect to Jötunn. To be honest, the jötunn are in no way defined by "frost" or "giant", and even though they are mentioned under "Giant", searching for "Frost Giant" cannot possibly be with the Jötunn in mind. With the proliferation of the Marvel universe, it is much more likely that it is the Marvel characters one has in mind. AndreasBM (talk) 12:50, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

This term's primary use is English representations of Norse myth. Usually it's a translation of Old Norse hrímþurs (from which the Marvel Comics use therefore ultimately derives). This article doesn't yet cover the topic, but it will in the future. For what it's worth, a quick Google Books search reveals overwhelming use in reference to Norse myth, and very little in reference to the Marvel Comics use. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Bloodofox! AndreasBM (talk) 12:54, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Glad to help! :bloodofox: (talk) 16:28, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

You are redirected here because the 'frostgiants' are called by another word in old norse related to Thurs, Hrím-Thurs/Hrímϸursar, meaning 'frost giants' and trust me, scholars HATE when people refer to the marvel universe, with this subject, when it has no real relevance except that they stole it and UTTERLY RUINED the story behind the connection between odin and loki, its based losely on it yeah, but has no relevance when we're talking old norse, if you base your knowledge on this subject on marvels universe, sorry to say but people will laugh you in the face. : Rex: (talk) 16:28, 20 November 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.109.183.75 (talk)

grendel is not a "jotunn"

grendel is described as a monster that does not even closely match a typical jotunn who are a sub group of gods along with the aesir and vaenir

therefore grendel should not be included in this article since they describe grendel as a monster more akin to a troll than a god-like being Emalin1005 (talk) 01:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

On Wikipedia we follow the academic sources, not editors personal opinions of what closely matches a typical jotunn. MrOllie (talk) 02:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

jotunm is norse mythology

jotunn is from norse mythology, the other old english eoten is just another name for jotunn. the reason why is that they adoptes it from norse mythology due to viking trade and wars (and possibly Normandian) Emalin1005 (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Germanic mythology is Norse mythology. The Norse are a North Germanic people. Old Norse is one of the North Germanic languages, etc. MrOllie (talk) 02:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie eoten is just used in one reliable source, the beowulf poem while jotunn is found in both runestones and several books including the eddas. in short its norse mythology Emalin1005 (talk) 02:44, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, Germanic mythology is a grouping that includes Norse mythology. You are drawing a distinction where none actually exists. Stick to the cited sources. MrOllie (talk) 02:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOlliealso norse mythology differs from other germanic folklore, thats why its called norse mythology instead of gemanic mythology Emalin1005 (talk) 02:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

You should click on the links in my messages and read the articles. All of this is explained therein. It is particularly important to note that the Germanic peoples lived in a large area in the north of Europe. If you are reading 'Germanic' and thinking about modern day Germany that is probably the root of your misunderstanding. MrOllie (talk) 02:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie then i write germanic i mean all the germanic people, anglo-saxons, germans, danes, norweigan, swedish, dutch etc Emalin1005 (talk) 02:59, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Many of those terms are quite modern. What we are talking about here dates back to well before the Viking era, (Tacitus wrote about some of this), so your idea that this spread due to Viking trade or wars is unlikely. MrOllie (talk) 03:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie pls link the specific qoute from Tacitus that you refer to Emalin1005 (talk) 03:14, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

It's in the Germania. I suggest you consult secondary sources, though. You can find a few in the references section of Germanic mythology. MrOllie (talk) 03:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie tacitus never visited the germanic countries and was also biased including political propaganda so i dont see how that can be a academic source Emalin1005 (talk) 03:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Germanic mythology reached Rome centuries before the Viking era, is the point. MrOllie (talk) 03:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie do they specifically mention jotunn? Emalin1005 (talk) 03:28, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie i mean germanic mythology as a whole reached rome early but do they even talk about jotunn or is it just some random giant? Emalin1005 (talk) 03:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Follow the secondary sources. MrOllie (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie im autistic and would probably not find the relevant sources Emalin1005 (talk) 03:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

You're going to have great difficulty editing Wikipedia, then, since reliable sources are the foundation of this site. See WP:V, WP:OR. You need sources to back up anything you do here. MrOllie (talk) 03:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie is it about the theory Jacob Grimm proposed relations with tuisto and ymir? Emalin1005 (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie also i do not see a valid reason to class it as germanic instead of norse that it appears the most Emalin1005 (talk) 03:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The 'valid reason' is that Wikipedia follows the academic sources on this, not the personal opinions of individuals who show up on this talk page. MrOllie (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The term eoten is descended from Proto-Germanic without coming first from jötunn. The two terms are cognates and there is strong reason to think this form was loaned into English as you assert. As both terms are Germanic in origin, not descendents of one another, and are attested in Germanic language texts, the term Germanic is fitting as a category for the being. That there are more attestations in Old Norse sources than Old English ones is not only relevant for whether the term Germanic is suitable but also is expected given the vastly different extant literature of a relevant theme. That the term eoten is attested once does not mean that the word was not known more widely and the term þyrs is attested in many more sources. Ingwina (talk) 19:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)