Talk:Karan (caste)/Archive 1

Archive 1

About Karanam

The sista karanam community may not exceed a lakh in the whole of the country.teracy .Karanams Kayastha have formed associations at all major cities of the country.s.They however wear sacred thread which is administerd by a priest at the time of marriage.In the olden days,the karanam widows would not eat non vegetarian food and would wear white sarees with their head fully covered. karanam caste is conisdered as a caste belongs to the knowledge and wiy

Patnaiks/karanams:This caste does not have a centuries long history & no valid explanation & later years they considered themselves as a seperate caste as patnaiks,pattanayak,karanam,karana,sista karana depending on the regions they have later setteled in & the customs they created. Some of the places they are even called as in the history).This caste has been majorly originated in orissa later migrated to different parts of the country . During the period of kalinga Dyanasty it was considered that these brahmins(who have not pursued their lives as pujari's,archakas in temple's unlike the vaidiki sect of brahmins) were appointed as the accountants,political consultants etc in the jobs which needed lot of intellegence & mature thinking abilities.During the later years some of them have accustomed to the kshatriya culture little of which has down the line become a part of their custom.

After the kingdoms & the monarchy system have been wiped out,patnaiks/karanams continued to work as village officials(munsabs, karanam),accountants,teachers & other adminstrative jobs.Once the munsab system have been removed & village adminsrative systems have been revised,this caste being lost their major livelihood by which down the line many families of this caste have become economically backward but they have continued to remain as academically one of the brillaint sections of the society.Nowadays the economical situations have become little better of to few well educated families(infact not a majority of them).

Patnaik's have the same customs,rituals & traditions,festivals just like the rest of the brahmins except for the only fact that the sacred thread ceremony(upanayana or yagnopavetam) will happen at the time of marriage unlike the rest.As this caste having adopted & customised some of the Kshatriyan habits we can see people who are a mix of vegetarian & non-vegetarian in this caste.Still we can find the some people of this caste thoroughly,religiously & diligently following the rituals.

Greetings, information on Wikipedia must be footnoted to WP:Reliable sources. If you do not footnote your information, no matter how true you feel it to be, it will be eventually challenged and removed. Please spend some time reading WP:Footnotes, and check out GoogleBooks to find reputable, academic works which you can cite to reference the information you add to the article. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:15, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

OTRS notice: Edit war

OTRS has received notice that editors are reverting each others' entries without trying to reach consensus. The lastest removal (which I reverted) was a quote from an academic publication. I would suggest editors involved in the disagreement consult Wikipedia:Edit war.

Rather than engage in a war of reversals, editors should discuss the entry in question and try to reach consensus. If they find they are unable to do so, Wikipedia has mechanisms for arbitration.

Please consult the following page:Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. If you do not feel that any of the suggestions offered there will be constructive, you can ask for arbitration, but please be aware that this is considered a last step within dispute resolution. Please consult this page:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests.

I ask the involved parties to try and find consensus within Wikipedia guidelines, i.e. agree to disagree and place only well-sourced and referenced material on the page, even if it reflects different points of view. The key to resolving this dispute -which is virtually impossible for outsiders to understand - is to stick to the principleWikipedia:Verifiability, not truth and accept that there may be differing opinions regarding this subject. You may also want to consult the pages Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

Principles

Edit warring considered harmful

1) Edit warring is considered harmful. When disagreements arise, users are expected to discuss their differences rationally rather than reverting ad infinitum. The three-revert rule should not be construed as an entitlement or inalienable right to three reverts, nor does it endorse reverts as an editing technique.

Wikipedia is not a soapbox

2) The use of Wikipedia for ethnic or political propaganda is prohibited by Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not.

Disruptive editing

3) Users who disrupt the editing of an article or set of articles may be banned from those articles, or, in extreme cases, from the site.

Assume good faith

4) Wikipedia:Assume good faith contemplates the extension of courtesy and good will to other editors on the assumption that they, like you, are here to build an information resource with a neutral point of view based on reliable, verifiable sources.

Courtesy

5) Users are expected to be reasonably courteous to each other. This becomes even more important when disputes arise. See Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:No personal attacks, and Wikipedia:Wikiquette.

Neutral point of view

6) Wikipedia:Neutral point of view contemplates fair representation of all significant points of view regarding a subject.

Good faith acceptance of references

7) References may be used which are not available online. It is sufficient that that they may be found and verified using the facilities of an academic library or a service such as Lexis-Nexis. In the absence of demonstrated failure, a user is presumed to be able to adequately cite such references.

Reconciliation

8) When Wikipedia policies conflict they should be interpreted in the light of the purpose of the project, creating a useful, up-to-date, and accurate reference work.

• I have added this page to my watchlist and will report any and all further disruptive behaviour to the administrators.

• For the record: I have no opionion(s) as to the subject matter of the entry Karanam

Asav (talk) 11:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for Repeated Updations,Lets discuss!!!!!

I Have already raised My concern & sent a mail to the Wikipedia team.

Anyways from the reply what I felt is not to go for EDIT WARS.Let me present my view & support for My changes & I also want to mention Mr/Miss/Mrs.MathewVanitas by word of mouth feels that karanams are "descendants of" but its no where mentioned in any of his references the word descendants of. In what some other reference he shows says that not the author of the article but kalsidasa in RAGHUVAMSA describes karanams as offsprings of X & Y.He just describes it because poets noramlly describe things which are most of the times unrealistic & i also want you to provide me the exact line in RAGHUVAMSA where kalidasa wrote that karanams are DESCENDANTS of X & Y & the one from GARUDA PURANA please follow the below.

First Of all,I see the Other editor(MathewVanitas:MV) who is conflicting with me has provided some references which are from the good books & ancient Mythologies like GARUDA PURANA from which his rest of his references have copied the same line "The son of a vasihya father and a shudra mother is a karana" which is the prime basis for his Update.

I can only laugh at his ignorance but its not his mistake.He has completely Misinterpreted the meaning of the word KARANA means in that context.It is just the status of the person who are from such parents but not the caste they bear.In the very same document it has also mentioned "murddhabhishikta,ambashtha,nishada,mahishya,ugra,karna,suta,vaideha,magadha,kshatta,ayogava" these are all not castes & you will never find castes with those names because they are the status attached to a person of such born.Even though a person is SUTA,it does not mean that he has no caste.He automatically belongs to caste of his Paternal origin.

But when it comes to the KARANAM,its a caste but not a person and its not even a caste but a Profession,KARANAM is only the name with which they were called.The people who are appointed as karanams are from the NIYOGI brahmins caste.NIYOGI means "the one who is appointed" the brahmins who were appointed as karanams are niyogi's.

In the same link it also tells that karanams are considered as smarthas,who are one of the 3 major sect of brahmins under which niyogi is a sub.

The brahmin caste system is very vast & niyogi brahmins is a sub part of it which in itself has so many divisions.So when I say Karanams belong a sub sect of Niyogi Brahmins we should look into one thing that whether we have a sub-sect KARANAM in the niyogi sub-castes are not.

But Instead we are Looking into the english spelling search of Karanam/karana which is no good to the actual context of discussion & the very basic motto of wikipedia having this page "KARANAM".

If you find for karanam in google,you may find so many results.because google has just only the word to find but it does not explain the meaning with respest to the context. Karanam - is a caste/profession, karanam - means "A REASON" in TELUGU language, Karanam - a status of a person with respect to Mythical usage, Karanam - a person who holds the postion of karanam, karanam - In sanskrit language has so many meanings depending on the context.

so first its better we understand the contextual meaning of the words but not just go by the spelling or the presence of the word.

And why I urge to remove the very controversial line By MV is :

1.Karanam is a writer/accountant caste which only requires people who have exceptional knowledge of writing & analyzing skills,which in that old times is acquired only by NIYOGI BRAHMINS.

2.Their basic duties are to write,analyse,evaluate,plotting startegies & resolve disputes being placed in a highly respected positions in the village.

3.Vysyas are the merchant caste,the are purely in to business but not the above mentioned about karanams.

4.Shudras are the farming class,neither do they have gothras starting with sacred saptharihis not can they read & write. They dont have the custom of wearing the sacred thread like brahmins,vysyas & kshatriyas. They are very serious in to farming.

5.Only karanams & Brahmins have the same rituals,festivals & customs right from birth to death they follow everything in common.

6.The famous ritual "KAASHI YATRA" performed during the marriages is there only for brahmins & karanams who are a sub sect of brahmins.

7.There are so many Matrimony sites where you can observe,a karanam having the words associated as Karanam brahmins.They clearly mention the gothras,stars,raashi's & kundali's which is only most common in brahmins.

8.We can only relate the nature of the Karanam Profession but not the entire caste to other similar castes which are already mentioned.This is a unique caste which has only associations & roots in the brahmin system especially niyogis.

9.Shudras dont have Gothras named after Sacred seven rishis unlike Karanams,so there is no point we have to discuss about that part at all.

10.karanams were always a forward caste from the day it was originated.Its mainly prevalant in orissa & North eastern part of Andhra pradesh.

Its quite surprising that wikiepdia believes the only line where the karana citation was found & which has totally different meaning to the caste.

Its always better if wikipedia has any issues in understanding the contextual meanings of the words,better check with the respective SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS which is highly advisable to avoid controversies.

This pirticular addition or updation by MV has already got some objections/shocks which you can see in the discussion column.

Infact this misunderstanding or new definition by MV leads to so many problems & create panique in many families of this caste.so I urge wikipedia to follow up this issue very carefully taking into the account the sensitivity of this issue.

Wikipedia being the most preferred & referred site for any kind of subject queries,it is very important for wikipedia to consult with the respective leaders or representatives of the respective caste or religion to update anything new about such entities.

There is every chance because of mistake of a ignorant editor so many readers can be misleaded which can put the credibility & authenticity of information available in wikipedia at stake.

Not every reader can spare time to do complaints like me on these issues.So if you have any doubts first check with People who are the representatives or leaders of KARANAM caste but do not update anything improper or irrelavant with your misunderstading.

Check with the sanskrit scholars or language respective experts who i think surely availble for you if you have any doubts in the contextual meanings.

I provide you some links below find for "Karanam" or "Karan" which can give you the exact picture in a wide angle.

http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/edgar-thurston/castes-and-tribes-of-southern-india-volume-4-ala/1-castes-and-tribes-of-southern-india-volume-4-ala.shtml

nellorebrahmins.com/Docs/Brahmins_of_Andhra_Pradesh16.doc

Women Writing in India: The twentieth century By Susie J. Tharu, Ke Lalita

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyogi#Subdivisions

http://www.vedah.net/manasanskriti/Brahmins.html#i_Niyogi_Brahmins

http://dspace.vidyanidhi.org.in:8080/dspace/bitstream/2009/1072/9/UOH-1991-267-8.pdf

http://niyogi.co.tv/#Niyogis_Today

http://vadama.co.tv/

http://village-accountant.co.tv/

Thank you André Savik for your reply by mail.

Special Thanks:

I truly Appreciate MathewVanitas for his time for improvement of wikipedia in many areas in which he has contributed till now but when it comes to updating sensitive matters about a RELIGEON,CASTE,CREED,RACE,SEX please also try to spend time with the respective representatives who surely will know more actual details than what you get on internet.

I like your diplomatic way of presenting & supporting youself but that does not fit for a friendly agreement all the time.

Try to understand the sensitivity of the issue.

I really dont have time like you for wikipedia & its articles.This one is specific about My caste so I had to take some interest & spare some time for corrections.

To WIKIPEDIA,

I'm myself a part of this caste since my birth & so are my ancestors till their death.we have never came accross such definitions of SHUDRA or KSHATRIYA associated with us as we always are part of brahmins or atleast associated ourselves with brahmins. we always followed our customs,rituals,traditions so religiously & strictly that suddenly some one from outside the caste finds something in a book,misunderstoods it & trys to tell us about what we are as if we dont know about ourselves.This is really strange,funny & unacceptable.

Its just something like I call MathewVanitas as HITLER & tell him that he does not know his name is HITLER & till now he thinks that he is Mathew because I heard someone very popular calling him HITLER.

Its WIERD & thats how anyone from our community will feel if they read this article.

Thanks alot, SP patnaik. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SP Patnaik (talk • contribs) 13:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Greetings, thanks for a thorough response. It is certainly easiest to work when we communicate like this. I've read through the above, and grant that there can be issues of interpretation, and of terms with multiple meanings. And though I do agree that finding people who are well-versed in a given topic is helpful, I disagree that "a representative" of the community should be a deciding factor. Often members of a community are subject to much internal misinformation and bias. Not just in India, but throughout the world, there are people with very set beliefs about the origin and status of their group, which are not verifiable through academic history, or even a survey of neighboring communities. Accordingly, though some inside perspective can be helpful, simply being a member of a community does not make a person an authority on the subject.

I note your concerns with the cites, and will look into them. However, that does not relieve you and other editors of the burden of providing your own cites. Currently the article is completely unreferenced, so it would not be out of line with Wikipedia procedure to simply blank the article and start from scratch. We have editors this week adding large amounts of text with zero citation, which is not the way to go.

Of your cites above, you don't give a page# for your comments on Thurston, and the ebook isn't very searchable. Can you let us know what page number backs up your statements? Of the other links provided, they don't appear to be WP:Reliable sources, nothing authoritative. And http://niyogi.co.tv/#Niyogis_Today is simply an old copy of a Wikipedia article, so not citeable. What you need to do is check out GoogleBooks and see if you can find some cites to back up your assertions.

Given the controversy here, and the complete lack of substantiation of the claims in the article, I'm inclined to propose blanking the entire article and starting from scratch, adding in only material that can be substantiated. The current material won't be "lost", since it will be preserved in the article History, but it does no credit to Wikipedia for an article to be a series of claims with no footnoting whatsoever. Thanks for any input on these comments, MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:55, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

EDIT: Also, I understand your objections to the three sources of the four footnotes (on the removed quote below), but the fourth[1] seems to have plentiful data about an Orissa caste of Karanam, also known as Mahanti. What is your opinion on the information in that book, and its applicability to the article? MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:59, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

EDIT2: I'm also concerned that the article is far too redundant to articles like Niyogi. If there is crossover between different groups, it should be mentioned and wikilinks, but the bulk of material specific to Nyogi should be covered in Nyogi, not repeated in each article which has some relation to them. That's the great thing about WP; there's no need to have redundancies because people can simply click the blue links to see the other articles. So we do need to work at trimming back from this article any material not specifically related to the Karanam concept, and/or which is covered at length in other articles. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:32, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Removed contested content

The following content was removed by the above editor based on his arguments. I have not yet had a chance to research and/or rebutt his statements, but wanted to copy the chopped data here so that it can be analysed for accuracy:

“ The caste has been described as the descendants of a Vaishya (merchant class) man and a Shudra (farming class) woman. ”

MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Still In a state of confusion!!!

Dear vanita Mathew,

First of all sorry for my indentations,alignments & for Not complying with the standards of wikipedia.I'm not working in wikipedia & am using it for the first time which I never even dreamt of :)!!!!!

I just saw You say that about "S THARU book says : "Karanams are accountants & they are brahmins" adds no substative comment.

OMG what about your single line about all your basis is.Is it providing a Pages long substantive support!!!!!!!!! what a hipocrite.

I clearly wrote what your references meant.

And its you who created the below line

“ The caste has been described as the descendants of a Vaishya (merchant class) man and a Shudra (farming class) woman ”

If you look at your references,all of them say below

“ The son begotten by a vaishya upon a shudra woman is known as karana ”

Even the authors did not meant that they are talking about a caste called karanam on a whole.

Every one described what karana is but no one talked about a caste while defining all those words.

Its so true what they said about all the below: murddhabhishikta,ambashtha,nishada,mahishya,ugra,karana,suta,vaideha,magadha,kshatta,ayogava but they are not castes. If you say KARANA among the above is a caste then where are the rest of the mentioned castes above????

& at the time Garuda Purana was written there is no specific caste With Name KARANAM,This word came into usage/existence centuries later.

I know now what you will feel about me:who are you a well known historian,or do you have PHD in ancient caste systems & their existence,did you do a thesis etc etc.

Being a part of this caste & I being a brahmin I have a basic knowledge what some sanskrit words(not all I repeat) means & their contexts.I might be wrong.so please check the same with the book writers what they meant on this line.That would be better :)

I want you show me exactly where your chopped line is there in any of your references.The complete line you pasted.It was just your misinterpretation of the facts.

You should not only follow what you found but also go thru what other editors say & support with their references. Infact the last editor

If you follow them thoroughly then you might get some more clear idea about what you say & others feel & why you alone is supporting your updates but not the rest.There should be a practical logic atleast for that.

I can only say that you have done only SEARCH but not RESEARCH on this pirticular article.

Research is not a one day job or one month job,its a long term process of gathering facts,analysing the facts & presenting with valid explanations & scores of examples.

I have seen some of your other contributions unrelated to castes,which are impressive & we expect you also do the same but very very carefully when you update some sensitive issues.

With due respect let me tell you I also do not have much time for a endless debate on this issue because I'm also into a very serious JOB where I cant find myself sparing time for raising complaints,getting into arguements & moreover dont want to get stressed out along with additional issues like this.

You a longterm member of wikipedia,This loads of information is in safe hands of people like you & we believe that & when majority of people come up with their opinions yes there really should be something valid in what they say & lets verify what they majority says.It will be the end of discussion.

I Like WIKIPEDIA very much & this is my first subject reference for any of my queries.I believe it to be close to perfect & genuine.lets keep it that way.

Thanks

SP Patnaik

Completely unacceptable article

Can someone please give me a good reason why I shouldn't just convert this article to a two line stub? Wikipedia requires that information in it be verifiable--that means that we need reliable sources for any claim which might be challenged (i.e., anything more complicated than "The sky is blue"). I don't see 'any verification in this article. Some of the talk page discussions above indicate that there may have been citations before; I strongly recommend that anyone who has or had citations for this add them to the article (if you don't know how, write them here and I'll show you how to format them). Note that sources must conform to our Reliable Sources Guideline.

When information is disputed (as I see above, there's been a lot of disputes), the correct solution is not just to argue about what you "know" is "true". The correct solution is to find reliable sources that show what has or has not been claimed.

I intend to come back to this article in a few weeks, and start cutting it down to the bare minimum information; I'll try to find sources myself, though that can be difficult for me since I don't have access to an English library. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Moved from the article

I moved this section by User:Swarnim1 from the article proper to its discussion page, as it is a personal statement.

Here I have something to share with Wikipedia.

I belong to a karna kayastha family and we are Maithili speaking people from Bihar and Nepal.We write a paricya or introduction before sending a profile to people of our caste which talks about our maternal garndparents and their ancestral introducion too.

For writing a parichay we have panjikars for our community who keep the records of families and their ancestral lineages.

I have seen a place referring to aplace in Orrisa where our caste is said to basically belonged.But I am not sure as have heard somepeople talking of our Soth indian origin too.We traditionaly do not marry the people from other sub castes of Kayastha like Srivastavas,ambastha etc.Our rituals matches with those of maithil-brahmins rather than our other subcastes of kayasthas.We even do not marry non-maithil karna kayasthas of Bihar.

Another sect of Karna kayastha are non maithils and found in Magadh region of Bihar.

Th cultures of maithil and non-maithil karna kayasthas are different from each other.

I would like to know about the relation between Oriya and telugu languages with Maithili.This question has arised as oftn heard that we are basically from these places but the other point is we are the pioneers who have established Maithili as a respectd and rich language in Bihar.

Another thing is I have never heard of our proximity with Khastriya's of India as mentined in this artcile of wikipedia about karn Kayasthas.

Asav | Talk (Member of the OTRS Volunteer Response Team) 08:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

The following paragraph by User:Swarnim1 has been moved here as well.

I am really disappointed to see only one liner addition to this information seeking piece about karna kayathas.Please also gather some information about the karna kayasthas of Bihar who are Maithils and non Maithils.Their culture and traditions are really rech and varied although they migrated years ago from Orissa nad south India to Bihar.The usage of the panji(Registered information about their ancestors) are unique.I believe certain more information should be added here.

Asav | Talk [[Wikipedia:Volunteer Res101.63.73.21 (talk) 13:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)ponse Team|(Member of the OTRS Volunteer Response Team)]] 12:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

origin

Madala Panji (Oriya: ମାଦଳା ପାଞ୍ଜି; mādaḷā pāñji) is a chronicle of the Jagannath in Puri, Odisha state, India. It describes the historical events of Odisha related to Lord Jagannath or Jagannath Temple.[1] Though the actual date of starting of Panjis is not known, but it is believed that it might be started from 12th[2] or the 14th century AD. The book is a classic and literary master piece of the Oriya language first order, parallel to which very few vernacular of India possess. It can be compared with Rajvansham of Sri Lanka, Rajtarangini of Kashmir or Burunji of Assam. The earliest use of prose can be found in the Madala Panji or the Palm-leaf Chronicles of the Jagannatha temple at Puri, which date back to the 12th century.

Contents [hide] 1 Madla Panji's role in Oriya history 2 Writers of Panji 3 Classification 4 Types of Panjis 5 Madala Panji in recent years 6 See also 7 References Madla Panji's role in Oriya history[edit] While writing Oriya history, historians like Sir W.W.Hunter [3] and Andrew Stirling considered the facts related in Madala Panji as base. The Madala Panji was traditionally written on a year to year basis. On Vijaya-Dashami day, the Karanas (official history writers of Puri, a caste of Odisha, involved in keeping the chronicle. This ritual is cited as a proof that the tradition of keeping this chronicle began with Oriya king Chodaganga Dev (1078–1150) himself. There are some, like Dr. Harekrushna Mahatab, Dr.Nilakantha Dash and Dr. Krushna Chandra Panigrahi who hold that the Panji dates from the reign of Ramachandra Deva I who re-established the worship of Lord Jagannath after Kalapahad said to have destroyed it.The arguments are complex, but it is likely that much of the early record was indeed lost in the period that followed Kala Pahar and was rewritten in a fashion that mixed legend with history.

Writers of Panji[edit] According to the tradition, Chodaganga created 24 families of Karanas to preserve the temple records. Of these, five were entrusted with the writing and preservation of the Madala Panji. They are:

Panjia Karan—preserves the Madala Panji Tadau Karan—writes the Madala Panji Deula Karan—enforces the Madala Kotha Karan—the main compiler Baithi Karan – assistant Classification[edit] In subsequent stage, due to the bulky size of Madala Panji, its content covering different dimensions related to temple management, it was divided into four parts:

Bhandara Khanja Madala (maintained by Pattajoshi Mohapatra) Deula Madala / Karmangi Madala (maintained by Deula Karana) Deshapanji Madala (prepared by Deula Karana) Rajakhanja Madala (prepared and maintained by Tadhau Karana),[4] Types of Panjis[edit] There are also five different categories of Panjis. No one has seen them all.

Raja Khanja—important events of the Rajas. Read on Paush Purnima (Pushyabhishek). Kept by Tadau Karan. Desh Khanja—Records gifts of land and money and occasions when the Jagannath temple was plundered. Kept by Kotha Karan. Karmangi. Daily rituals. Important events related to the rituals recorded. Announced daily at the Beherana. Dina Panji—The daily almanac read by the temple astrologer at the time of the Avakash. These were prepared annually and finalized on Vishuva Sankranti. Besides the Madala, there were other Karans who wrote regional chronicles, known as Chakadas. "All the Kadatas and Chakadas taken together will be about a cartload."

Madala Panji in recent years[edit] Madala Panji language is Oriya and was recorded in Oriya and Telugu script, preserved in the Manuscript Library in Madras, which speaks about the story regarding image of Nila Madhaba or Lord Jagannath of Udra desa, as Odisha was known in Middle Ages. It seems to have re-written during 16th century when the king of Khurda had newly installed the images after destruction made by Kalapahad, Muslim general of Nawab of Bangal.

A thorough study of the Madala Panji using all the different source materials has apparently not yet been done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr.ankitdu (talk • contribs) 16:50, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

This seems to be a cut and paste of the article on Madala Panji. What is the point you are trying to make? If you want to mention, how Karan's have been involved in building the Madala Panji, please free to summarize it briefly, giving a link to the other article. Please keep in mind also that this is not all that there is to Karan's. For example, Karan's in Andhra Pradesh aren't involved with Madala Panji. Kautilya3 (talk) 19:33, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2017

Pattanayak is a title used by sista Karanamulu of Andhra Pradesh and by the karana caste in Odisha. they are brahmin subsect.the following are the references.

References : "Andhra brahmanula indlaperlu sakhalu" by emmessroy sastry Gollapudi veeraswamy and sons publishers","sri utkalavipra vamsa pradipika" by k.krishnamurthy published in 1901,sankshipta brahmana charitra,Palakodeti foundation,Dr.Palakodeti satyanarayana Rao "The last brahmin:Life and Reflections of a Modern-day Sanskrit Pandit by Rani sivasankara sarma Publisher: Permanent Black; First edition (2007) Language: English ISBN-10: 8178241382 ISBN-13: 978-8178241388 &"The last brahmin by Rani sivasankara sarma publisher New syllabus(may 2002)page 45-46) 103.224.154.163 (talk) 04:16, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — Sam Sailor 19:21, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2017

Karan is not a brahminical sect,in the 11th century, in Odisha during the reign of King Anantavarma Choda Ganga Deba, some Kshyatriyas, who lost their battleworthiness and coulnot perform martial duty, were assigned accountiing work, record keeping of the King and temples, termed as "Karanik" . Gradually their descendants abandoned martial duty and evolved as a community "Karan". Bearing surnames as Pattanayak, mohanty, Das, Parija, Mahapatra, Kanungo, Das Mohapatra etc.At times the clan was named as "Bhoi" or "Beheruk", Rama Chandra Deb iind of Khurda, whoruled from 1725 to 1736 A.D. was the founder of Bhoi Dynasty at Khurda. He was from "Karan" cast. Later on we find these karans in services of various principalities of Odisha as "Chhamu Karan". In Jagannath Temple of Puri we find "Deula Karana" looking after various rituals and "Tadhau Karan" responsible for writing "Madala Panji". PATNAIK AMBIKA (talk) 18:15, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

@PATNAIK AMBIKA: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Murph9000 (talk) 17:38, 10 May 2017 (UTC). (But we can find about Karan castes in Manu samhita, which states that Karans are bratya Kshatriyas.So origin of Karans dates back to time immemorial.) Source:Manu samhita

Arbitrary heading

Pattanayak is a title used by sista Karanamulu of Andhra Pradesh and they are niyogi brahmin subsect.the following are the references.

References :

• "Andhra brahmanula indlaperlu sakhalu" by emmessroy sastry Gollapudi veeraswamy and sons publishers"
• "sri utkalavipra vamsa pradipika" by k.krishnamurthy published in 1901,sankshipta brahmana charitra,Palakodeti foundation,Dr.Palakodeti satyanarayana Rao
• "The last brahmin:Life and Reflections of a Modern-day Sanskrit Pandit by Rani sivasankara sarma Publisher: Permanent Black; First edition (2007) Language: English ISBN-10: 8178241382 ISBN-13: 978-8178241388 &
• "The last brahmin by Rani sivasankara sarma publisher New syllabus(may 2002)page 45-46)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2401:4900:16b6:ede8:5878:c787:bd3e:acc7 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

• Hi, I am not quite sure what you are trying to suggest here and it is not helped by the fact that of all those sources I can only see this one and even that is in snippet view. The 1901 source will not be acceptable anyway and the one I have linked is unlikely to be acceptable because it is an autobiography. What are you wanting the article to say? And what page numbers are you referring to? - Sitush (talk) 12:59, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2021

Please protect the page and complain to the administrator against continuous vandalism. I beg, please protect this page from vandalism. This kind of vandalism may lead to social frictions. Ayushsinha2222 (talk) 14:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The page is already semi-protected, it appears the vandalism that's currently on-going is due to an edit war that should hopefully be resolved soon. Volteer1 (talk) 15:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Can we not seek the administrator's help? Let's do something. It's been so saddening. Ayushsinha2222 (talk) 17:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Administrator Help

Is it possible to report the vandalism to the administrator? They should look into what can be done here. Please let's have administrative interventions. This vandalism is dangerous. I beg. Ayushsinha2222 (talk) 15:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

A complaint has been opened at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Sangramz reported by User:Ayushsinha2222 (Result: ). Anyone who understands this dispute is welcome to add their comments at the WP:AN3 noticeboard. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 19:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Social Status

Karanas as a community were highly influential during the rule of ganga dynasty in odisha holding all kinds of important positions in the empire from that of a village headman and accountant to that of prime minister and army general,you can add this important detail in the social status section of this article based on the following research monograph regarding history of Odisha by Dr Manas Kumar Das: https://ddceutkal.ac.in/Syllabus/MA_history/Paper-16.pdf , page 125 of the book has this detail regarding the development of karanas as a community during Eastern Ganga rule.Hope you add the appropriate details as per the source that I've provided AuthenticSources2546 (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

"Services" misspelling

In the opening "services" is misspelled. Could someone with extended-confirmed or administrative privileges please fix it? Turboplate (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Hindu Scriptures

The karanas are mentioned in Manusmriti

among the various kshatriyas who left their kshatriya hood hence were considered Vratya kshatriya.

Manusmriti 10.22 - 10.23 From the ‘Apostate’ Kṣatriya is born the ‘Jhalla,’ the ‘Malla,’ the ‘Licchivi,’ the ‘Naṭa,’ the ‘"Karaṇa"’ the ‘Khasa’ and the ‘Draviḍa.’—(22)

And from the ‘Apostate’ Vaiśya is born the ‘Sudhanvan’ the ‘Ācārya,’ the ‘Karuṣa,’ the ‘Vijanman,’ the ‘Maitra’ and the ‘Sāttvata.’—(23) Anid677543 (talk) 17:08, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 January 2023

In HINDU SCRIPTURES portion we can also add that in Manusmriti the karanas are mentioned among the various tribes who were Vratya Kshatriyas. Source - Read Manusmriti 10.22-10.23 Anid677543 (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

We can add that in Manusmriti 10.22-23 it is written that Karanas are Vratya kshatriyas. We can add that. Anid677543 (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 February 2023

The spelling of "Medieval" is wrong and has been typed as "Mediaeval" instead, it can be ffpund in the heading 'Mediaeval Period'.

The paragraph immediately above that, under the heading of "Hindu Scriptures" is completely wrong and misleading. I myself belong to the Karana caste and it has been stated as a forward, upper caste where as here it says that according to Hindu scriptures Karanas were the offsprings of Vaishyas and Shudras which technically belong to the lower castes, and thus this is not possible. WHat I think has happened is that there has been a confusin between the caste name Karan and the Mahabharata charater Karan who are completely unrelated. The warrior Karan was called the son of a charioteer and hence he was mistakenly thought to be belonging to a lowwer caste. This confusion might be the reason as to why such a misleading paragraph has been inserted in this wikipage w.r.t. the caste called Karan.

Here is that particular paragraph which I'm referring to: Hindu Scriptures Various Hindu scriptures such as Smrtis and Puranas mention Karan as a mixed caste.[6] According to puranic accounts, the offspring of a Vaishya father and a Shudra mother is called a Karan, which places them below Vaishyas & above Shudras as per Manu's law.[7] Amarkosha mentioned Karan along with Ambastha & Chandalas as mixed castes.[7] Coolbrooke also supports the mixed origin of Karan mentioned above.[8]

Kindly remove it. I'd be much obliged. Singh.abhisekh (talk) 12:10, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

First, the use of Mediaeval is an WP:ENGVAR issue. This article is written in Indian English, which usually usues the British English spellings of words, including "Mediaeval", rather than the American English "Medieval". Second the rest of your request lacks reliable sources, and it isn't clear exactly what changes you want made. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 13:12, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 13:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Addition of Origin

Please copy the origin section from this article and paste it here. I already cited reliable sources there. JudeB5 (talk) 03:08, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Please correct the Portion of Hindu scriptures

it is clearly mentioned in Madalapanji , manu smurti that karana are khestriya but why you guys are degrading a respected community by writing misleading facts i will go to court and sue the writer This is not a small mistake. It may promote hatred So kindly fixed it.......

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/elections/lok-sabha-elections-2019/odisha/news/reign-of-patnaiks-40-years-and-counting/articleshow/68858700.cms

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=-Q_gAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PA34&dq=ray+karan+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpvsPK_Nf3AhVyxosBHR5gCTQ4KBDoAXoECAUQAw Artifact7890076 (talk) 04:57, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Please note that Manusmriti & all are considered as WP:PRIMARY i.e. primary sources and cannot be cited! News articles are considered as unreliable sources as far as caste articles are concerned, and this particular article doesn't even talk about your Kshatriya claim; please find reliable & verifiable sources by modern scholars / reliable authors first! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:29, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

correct, in the article nothing is mentioned, it is misleading 2406:7400:51:6696:9C66:9BF6:622F:D95D (talk) 08:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)