Talk:Karma (2024 song)

Untitled

Where it says Siwa was inspired to create music like Avery Cyrus’s “Bangerz”, it should say Miley Cyrus.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7081:443b:a6a6:4d9:5ac4:9b52:6520 (talk) 00:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 17 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Closed as WP:NOGOODOPTIONS. The title remains in the current title until a good proposal. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:33, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

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Karma (2024 song) → Karma's a Bitch – This page keeps getting moved. The previous rationale was "The song was originally called that in the Miley Cyrus demo, and the Brit Smith demo. It also takes away the disambiguating, so it more succinct." I’m unsure, however. The article is about the song as an entity, but that 'entity' hasn’t got a name, but it’s clear that there are two versions of the same song, and that they are not covers of each other. I don’t think this has ever happened before. Plus the proposed title is already a redirect to the page, so seems like the most logical title. This is a case of 'what came first, the chicken or the egg?' Another suggestion is Karma and Karma's a Bitch. 109.235.247.80 (talk) 01:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No. The Siwa song is independently notable. On the other hand, the Brit Smith version is only notable because of Siwa's song. The fact that this article lends equal weight to the two versions is incorrect and should be changed. Llacb47 (talk) 02:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting angle. I’m undecided on what the weight for both versions should be, as the Smith version was only released a few days ago. The article currently reads that it entered the iTunes chart at number 8, whereas Siwa's version entered at 89 which can’t be ignored. Plus it seems to be growing in notability. 109.235.247.80 (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree. This needs to be moved back to Karma (JoJo Siwa song). The Brit Smith version (even if it's the better version to me), would've never surfaced without the release of JoJo's. Theknine2 (talk) 07:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree with this view, and I have also contributed on this thread, but I think for now this is the best course of action. It's not a similar scenario to that of "Fast Car" yet for example, where the song has been covered so many times people aren't looking for one specific artist. Whenever people think of Smith's version, they think of Siwa because that came first in quick succession (a few weeks apart from each other). Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 07:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes. There has been a lot of similarities between the 2 songs especially the one by Brit Smith which has a lot of history behind the creation and success of it which I think differentiates it a lot from the one by Jojo Siwa. Wiiformii (talk) 03:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it depends in time, but the wikipedia page should remain as JoJo siwa's now. At the moment, Brit Smith's song is charting extremely high because of the controversy surrounding it. If the song goes on to be more successful than JoJo Siwa's in total, then it might be worth changing the page to the name it has currently "Karma (2024 version)". However, this has not happened yet, and Smith's version is only popular because of Siwa. Miley Cyrus' full song hasn't even released yet I'm sure, so I don't know why an unreleased song that has now had its rights sold constitutes a say in the naming of the article. The name should NOT be "Karma's a Bitch" however. That completely nullifies Siwa's version and causes confusion because Siwa's was first, and what brought Smith's to fame. The song is now called "Karma". When the rights were sold, that's what it was named. Regardless of Smith's version, it came into the public sphere as "Karma" and should remain that way. Tl;dr: It should be left as JoJo Siwa's page for now, but if Smith's obliterates Siwas and remains the more popular version rather than famous because of Siwa, it should be changed to "2024 Version" - which seems like a course that may happen in the near future, but is only causing confusion for now. It shouldn't be changed to Smith's version because it isn't independent of Smith or Cyrus. Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Per WP:SONGDAB, we don't use the name of a cover artist for the song's article. Both versions are notable (unlike something like Kitty (Racey song) / Mickey (Toni Basil song).) The fact that the original became notable after the release of the cover version is a bit unusual, but it shouldn't stop us from sticking to the established naming convention. Karma (2024 song) and Karma (JoJo Siwa song) can continue to redirect here.

Also, I disagree with OP's statement that JoJo Siwa's version is not a cover. It definitely is. Some copyediting of the article is needed, but I'll let the RM play out first.162 etc. (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I responded to you before but Karma by JoJo Siwa is most certiantly not a cover because the rights were sold to her. The version that has been released by Brit Smith is a Demo. It would be wrong to call Smiths' the first version either, because it was intended for Miley Cyrus first. JoJo Siwa is the first official releasing of the song, and it is by luck that the demo has been officially released by Smith. The same goes for songs that are covered - Fast Car is an example. I mentioned this before as well, but for those who might not see that, music is often demoed by multiple different artists, The Middle (Zedd, Maren Morris and Grey song) and God Is a Woman being two prominent examples I can think that reached mainstream sucess that were not made for the final released artist. Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 04:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• Move back to Karma (JoJo Siwa song) for now: The page should not have been moved to 2024 song, as that is against WP:SONGDAB. Karma is also the WP:COMMONNAME for JoJo’s version and roughly half of the sources for Brit’s refer to her version as “the original version of JoJo’s Karma”. Once more RSs pick up on this and it is clearer which one has the more lasting notability this can be revisited, it is too soon to assume Brit’s will be more notable long term. This page structure was clearer in my opinion. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 18:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  To further clarify, JoJo’s version is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC because her version kick-started this whole thing and was the first to be officially released. None of the others would be notable without hers as they would just be obscure demos had it not been for the whole JoJo thing prompting their virality. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 19:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is not in play here; that would mean moving the song's article to Karma, and all will agree that that doesn't make sense.

  Whether the JoJo Siwa song is more notable or not is also irrelevant; again, per WP:SONGDAB, we use the first performer of the song for the title. That's why we have Torn (Ednaswap song) and 1985 (SR-71 song), even though the Natalie Imbruglia and Bowling for Soup versions are far more notable. 162 etc. (talk) 21:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  The Siwa version was the first version to be released, does that change anything? Llacb47 (talk) 21:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  Like I mentioned, it is unusual that the cover was released before the original, which was recorded 12 years earlier and shelved. That being said: JoJo Siwa covered a song that was originally performed by Brit Smith, not the other way around. It's therefore inaccurate, and against established naming convention, to call this a JoJo Siwa song. 162 etc. (talk) 22:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  Selling music is so prevalent in the music industry. I want you to read this article right now and come back: The Middle (Zedd, Maren Morris and Grey song)

  This song was "covered" by 12 people before the final version was released. Does this mean that the title of that wikipedia page should be "The Middle (2018 song)"? It doesn't make sense. Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 04:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  I see a distinction here because the early demos of "The Middle" are not independently notable - they never got a proper release, never charted, etc. Brit's Smith's song did. 162 etc. (talk) 05:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  That's true, and makes this case somewhat unique (frustratingly). But I linked that article mainly to show that once a song gets officially released, legally it becomes the artist's property. JoJo Siwa basically made Smith's song official with her version. Although Smith's version started as a demo, I think you'd be correct in saying that Smith's version has become independently notable because they released in close proximity, and went viral at the same time. I wonder though why a different wikipedia article can't be made for Smith's version entirely? The songs are the same, but are also different in enough ways, with enough substance and reliable sources to justify standalone wikipedia articles, despite being inherently linked. Would it be incorrect to create a new wikipedia page for Smith's song entirely rather than merging them? Is there a wikipedia policy on this? Otherwise, for now I think the current title of this article is actually all-encompassing and should remain. Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 05:14, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  Per WP:NCOVER, "Notable covers are eligible for standalone articles, provided that the article on the cover can be reasonably-detailed based on facts independent of the original." Whether that's the case here is a different discussion that is beyond the scope of this RM. See also WP:SPLIT. 162 etc. (talk) 05:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  I disagree that Karma is a cover though. If Smith's version was never released, the song would still stand alone? This is still Siwa's version of the song because she bought the rights? Both are their own versions, there is no cover version - if we were to say that, then this article should be named after the Miley Cyrus version because she recorded a demo first but didn't end up releasing it. Even though Smith officially released her demo, that would still make her's a cover because she wasn't the first to sing it. Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 06:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  Smith's has been officially released. Miley has not released hers at all. Let alone do we know if Miley even recorded it, that is all alleged. What we do know is Brit Smith recorded hers in 2012 and has since released the recording which is also doing better than Siwa's right now. 96.43.189.203 (talk) 15:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's unfair to call JoJo's version a 'cover'. Brit Smith's recording was scrapped and would have never seen the light of day if not for JoJo's release. Many songs are shopped around, demoed, and tested with multiple artists; I don't think it'd be fair to call the final versions of those songs 'covers'. Notably, songs that have been 're-recorded' and released by different artists to those who wrote it:

  - Party in the USA, Miley Cyrus (originally written and performed by Jessie J)

  - Irreplaceable, Beyonce (originally written and performed by Ne-Yo)

  - Black Widow, Iggy Azalea (originally written and performed by Katy Perry)

  Among many other examples, the aforementioned demos are all recorded and scrapped from their respective original albums. Is it then fair to say that these songs are all 'covers' of their original demos? If Jessie J were to release her original demo for Party in the USA, would Miley's song become a 'cover', despite it being the first version officially released and marketed?

  I feel as though this scrutiny on JoJo's release is unfairly targeted at her performance of the song. We're yet to see whether Brit Smith's version has longevity or notoriety outside of the buzz generated by JoJo's release -- it makes no sense for this article to be a double-feature, rather than an article focused on the original release of the song (JoJo's) and the controversy/follow up release of a demo of the song. 172.113.242.243 (talk) 23:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

  I feel like you were able to put into words what I was thinking, I agree. The practice of selling demos is common, so this case shouldn't be treated so differently. Helpingpeopleyay (talk) 00:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with you -- I think much of the controversy online is coming from a misunderstanding of how common of a practise this is in the industry. It's a shame that this song in particular is being trashed so heavily while artists like Ariana Grande, Beyonce, Rihanna, etc, all perform songs not made by them. Some go as far incorporate the demo vocals in the final product (see S&M where Ester Dean's vocals are present throughout the riffs and This Is What You Came For where Taylor Swift's vocals are present throughout the chorus).

  I think retroactively calling something a cover because it was recorded before the first release of a song is unfair. While Brit Smith's recording is more of an 'original', it is not the first performance to be released. I think most people would agree that it'd be silly to call popular songs covers if, theoretically, their demos were to be released officially.

  I think weighting both of these songs equally is unfair to the fact that JoJo was the first to person to have acquired/performed this song to release it. Retroactively marking its significance as the same of an un-released (now-released) demo is a dangerous precedent to set for any future artist who chooses to release/perform a song they wrote but later handed to another artist. 172.113.242.243 (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment A demo is usually understood to mean a "rough draft" of a song. That's not the case with "Karma's a Bitch" - it's a fully-finished product, with production by Timbaland and music video by Marc Klasfeld. The song (and video) we see today is exactly the same one that was released - albeit without fanfare - over 10 years ago. 162 etc. (talk) 14:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

  While I agree that typically a demo would be considered a rough draft, many songs released by large artists (like Party in the USA by Jessie J) were fully produced and later scrapped, before it was handed to Miley Cyrus with some lyrics mildly re-worked. I think it comes down to a question of whether something can be made a cover retroactively —- hypothetically, if Jessie J were to release her version today, would Miley‘s version become a cover over a decade after release? 172.113.242.243 (talk) 22:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Move back to Karma (JoJo Siwa song) This is the correct course. That was the original version that was released publicly. A lot of this maneuvering is just to spite JoJo. PuppyMonkey (talk) 06:58, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep as Karma (2024 song) for now. It is unclear what the title should be at this point as none of the original or suggested titles accurately convey the article's current scope. PuppyMonkey (talk) 07:05, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I can't decide on a clear vote, but as the OP says: the article is about the song "as an entity". That "entity" is called "Karma's a Bitch". It just so happens to be that Smith also named her version that, and Siwa used a different name. Titling it "Karma's a Bitch" would be to name the 'entity', not to title it because of it's the name of Smith's version. 86.31.83.194 (talk) 18:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Songs can be released under different titles (i.e. Many of Horror, recorded by Matt Cardle as "When We Collide"). I would stick with the title of the first official release, "Karma". Heartfox (talk) 03:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support - as per WP:NCM (WP:SONGDAB) . Regardless of the relative popularity of Siwa's version, the song was recorded and has an independent history before Siwa's version. -- User:WoodElf 03:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. While Brit Smith's version is indeed notable and has charted, the originally released song remains JoJo's version, the popularity of Brit Smith's version is due to JoJo releasing her version first, and JoJo's version has achieved greater chart success overall. Ultimately I think the best option is to split this out into two articles which likely would appeal to everyone, but I would also support a renaming of this article to "Karma (JoJo Siwa song)". EryZ (talk) 20:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment This move request has been inactive for weeks and has been pending for almost two months. At this point it should just be closed as no consensus and moved back to the last title that doesn't violate WP:SONGDAB, which was Karma (JoJo Siwa song). CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 23:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Eh, at this point we probably could just leave it here at Karma (2024 song) per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS. 162 etc. (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Contradicting statements

It's stated at one point in the article that the song was written for Miley Cyrus in 2011. However, the next sentence says that Cyrus allegedly recorded a demo of the song for potential inclusion on her 2010 album Can't Be Tamed. How? 84.69.3.175 (talk) 21:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Singers can release songs as singles during the album's 'era'. That doesn't mean it still can't be included on the album.

Either way the claim Miley recorded it in 2011 is all alleged but backed by reliable sources. 96.43.189.203 (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The article says that it was written (not recorded) in 2011, at least more than five months after the release of Can't Be Tamed (2010), which it's said the song was allegedly recorded for. The problem is that a song can't be released if it hadn't yet been written, so unless there was a scrapped reissue of Can't Be Tamed set to be released in 2011, the earliest album "Karma's a Bitch" could have been considered for is Bangerz (2013). 84.69.3.175 (talk) 20:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

What about the fact Brit Smith’s was top 3 on iTunes before?

Why’d that get removed? Or maybe I’m confused. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 00:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Brit Smith has never posted the music video of Karma to her YouTube channel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=U2QRyzWcaMTYFRzX&v=8Dl2c6AW-J8&feature=youtu.be It has 10 million views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.230.43.126 (talk) 20:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

This link links to the video for Karma but it isn't her Youtube channel so it shouldn't be used. Instead the vimeo link should be used.

Heres proof of Brit confirming the channel does not belong to her. https://i.imgur.com/u7sENu9.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/PpxQ2g7.png 67.230.43.126 (talk) 17:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Title violates WP:DABSONG

Karma (The Kolors song) is also a 2024 song. "Karma (2024 song)" should be a redirect to the Karma disambiguation page. Cavarrone 11:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

There was an RM earlier this year that ran for a month and a half and ended up as "no consensus". I'll note that the article at Karma (The Kolors song) didn't exist at the time. 162 etc. (talk) 16:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I had already noted the RM. Such an ambiguous title would had maybe barely acceptable at the time per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS, but now it's openly misleading. I have not a strong opinion about which should be the title, but I am ready to support any possible alternative proposal as long as it avoids ambiguity with the other article. Cavarrone 20:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Moving the article to Karma's a Bitch, as was originally proposed, would solve the ambiguity issue. As you saw, though, there was considerable pushback on that. 162 etc. (talk) 22:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the whole previous discussion, and especially the closure, have been rendered obsolete by the very fact that there is another notable 2024 song with the same title. Such a closure would not have been possible under the current conditions. Pinging other participants @SafariScribe @109.235.247.80 @BilledMammal @Llacb47 @Theknine2 @Helpingpeopleyay, @Wiiformii, @CAMERAwMUSTACHE, @96.43.189.203, @172.113.242.243, @PuppyMonkey, @Heartfox, @WoodElf, @EryZ _{(I hope I have not missed anyone)}. Cavarrone 09:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point. @Cavarrone, I believe you should start a WP:RM, considering the earlier discussion when the Kolors' song wasn't included. It will likely receive support. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 10:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I said it during the RM, and I’ll say it again. This page was moved to “Karma (2024 song)” without a discussion and should have been moved back to “(JoJo Siwa song)”, the last title to not violate SONGDAB, when the last one went no consensus. Now that enough time has passed, it’s clear JoJo’s version is the main topic here. It started this whole thing, it was released first, and none of the other versions would have been released or notable without it. Brit’s version did not even chart as much as JoJo’s did and is not the more notable one. It doesn’t matter that it was recorded first as it was an unreleased demo that no one talked about until JoJo’s version released and it resurfaced and was released. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 12:57, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the page can be titled Karma’s a Bitch, and the page can be formatted with both versions side by side, following the layout for (Where Do I Begin?) Love Story. Otherwise, Karma (JoJo Siwa song) is also a good option, since Brit Smith’s version would’ve never gained notability without JoJo’s version being released first. Theknine2 (talk) 13:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

There's also the possibility of splitting the article, per WP:NCOVER. That would resolve the bickering. 162 etc. (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, let's do that. See below. 162 etc. (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Support renaming to Karma's a Bitch. User:WoodElf 20:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative proposal (since everyone is undecided between "Karma’s a Bitch" and "Karma (JoJo Siwa song)"): Karma (JoJo Siwa and Brit Smith song), inspired by the short description "1997 single by LeAnn Rimes and Trisha Yearwood" for How Do I Live. Despite the title, I don't think it will inspire any confusion that the song is a duet, since both versions are clearly indicated on the page. Theknine2 (talk) 11:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Fine for me. Cavarrone 11:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me. User:WoodElf 19:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose. The proposed disambiguation tag 100% implies a duet, which this is not. See WP:SONGDAB. 162 etc. (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Split discussion

Per WP:NCOVER, "Notable covers are eligible for standalone articles, provided that the article on the cover can be reasonably detailed based on facts independent of the original." Both the Brit Smith song (Karma's a Bitch) and its cover by JoJo Siwa (Karma (JoJo Siwa song)) have good secondary source coverage; each standalone article would meet WP:NSONG and WP:SIGCOV. The current title (Karma (2024 song)) can then be retargeted to the disambiguation page. 162 etc. (talk) 19:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Good common sense solution. If anything it should be supported as a compromise, to avoid the bickering and the impasse between fans of the Karma's a Bitch and Karma (JoJo Siwa song) titles. The current title is unmaintenable as there is at least another notable 2024 song with this title, Karma (The Kolors song), and the situation should be solved as soon as possible. --Cavarrone 20:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. At the end of the day Brit Smith's is only notable because of JoJo Siwa. This article should be moved back to Karma (JoJo Siwa song) or to Karma's a Bitch. I personally think that it makes the most sense to retitle this article 'Karma's a Bitch' to keep the article looking the same but without breaking any rules since there's a song called Karma apart from this released in 2024. Karma's A Bitch is also the original version which was unreleased in 2012. However splitting them into two separate articles will make it more confusing since both of them correlate since once again, Brit Smith's is only viral because of JoJo Siwa.

67.230.43.70 (talk) 04:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

A split does not mean the song versions are equally notable and this is not a race to establish which one version is more notable than the other. At the end of the day "Notable covers are eligible for standalone articles, provided that the article on the cover can be reasonably detailed based on facts independent of the original." This article should be moved back to Karma (JoJo Siwa song) or to Karma's a Bitch, I tend to agree, but currently there is no consensus for such solutions because of the bickering of one faction against the other, and arguably insisting on this means not wanting to solve the issue. Cavarrone 06:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Support split per others, this would also make the pages have cleaner formatting instead of trying to cover them both at once. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 04:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Why can't this be renamed to "Karma's a Bitch"

It is the exact same song. The redirect is the same, it won't affect the article. No general consensus has reached but this is genuinely the only logical answer. Splitting the two seems like more hassle when moving the page will be even less. 67.230.43.70 (talk) 17:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)