Jump to content

Talk:Kelmendi (tribe)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Talk:Kelmend region)

Origin

[edit]

Kelmendi is pure 100% ALBANIAN, no slavs

Actually, there are. Kelmendi dispersed into Montenegro, causing inter-ethnic marriages with the Slavs. --Prevalis 20:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
However distant actual origin of the clan's formation is Slavic. --PaxEquilibrium 22:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Their Serb origin is just a theory, not proven fact. Even the people I know who descend from the Kelmendi say that the Kelmendis are Albanians and of Albanian origin, and not of Serb origin. It's like saying Ibrahim Rugova (former Premier of Kosovo; a Kosovar Albanian descending from the Kelmendi) is a Serb, something he's not as he fought for Albanian rights in Serbian and for Kosovar independence. --Prevalis 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please take your bullshit elsewhere. Kelmendi is not Serbian origin, everyone there is Albanian, and nobody other than Serbs claims that they are Serbs. I know, half the Balkans were once part of Serbia and everyone is a Serb but just doesn't realize, but wikipedia is supposed to be above petty nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.225.161 (talk) 01:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Serbs have tried to claim every significant figure and event in Albanian history to try to justify their presence in the Balkans.14:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vulajm (talk • contribs)

Kelmendi is 100% Albanian. And they hate slavic rats with passion

I am going to revert the deletion of the "Serb-theory" as it is sourced, you may add sourced material about the origin of the Kelmendi, this is not nationalism. --92.32.41.206 (talk) 00:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The Kelmendi Tribe is Albanian. Always have been Albanian. This is Serbian propaganda at it's finest and the so called "Sources" are Serbian as well. I need to contact the administration and have a serious talk about this. They are trying to rewrite history based on sources from pro serbian propaganda sites — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.211.58.40 (talk) 16:28, 26 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article

[edit]

This article, along with the notion that it has serbian origins is nothing short of absurd. I am from that clan, and can trace my ancestry along the male line to the 1600's, where the location of origin was Albania proper even prior to the 1600's. The serbian truncations were forced upon the people who lived in the former yugoslavia, and are remnants of oppression. Additionally, several of the family names there don't belong, or have faulty information as to the origins and current kinship information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Antishkja (talk • contribs) 04:08, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

August 2010

[edit]

I had to revert these big changes made by 69.119.255.190.

69.119.255.190 if you are viewing this, then please make changes but in a much smaller sense so they can be reviewed easily. And one more thing, please describe each change with a summary. Cheers. — Kedaditalk 17:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unexplained deleted sources

[edit]

Page copy of Augustino Theiner's Vetera Monumenta (a non-Yugoslav source which was deleted, it mentioned the origin), and the "popoli quasi tutti latini, e di lingua Albanese e Dalmata" (almost all are Catholics, speaking Albanian and Serbian)" was changed into the faulty "almost all are Catholics, speaking Albanian and Dalmatian" (see the same page: "dalmatinisch, i.e. Slawisch und Orthodox [like Bjelopavlici]"). Questionable edit comment of User:Majuru: "Clean up with modern sources that replace old/unverifiable ones" and "Bjelopavlici, originally Palabardhi, Orthodox Albanians later slavicised". The clan IS Albanian, nonetheless, their origin (geneaology and early history) should not be deleted, if sourced many, many times around. Majuru, you may complement the article with sources, but "replacing" (deleting) [all "other"] sources [which according to you are unverifiable], is not OK, but if you insist, please explain. Hope we can resolve this. --Zoupan (talk) 19:29, 28 November 2011 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

Montenegro, Plav-Gusinje

[edit]

I would like to add that the surname Balidemaj is named after Bali Dema, an army commander in the Battle of Nokshiq. Malsia E Madhe (talk) 22:04, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tomic et alii

[edit]
Unresolved

Jovan Tomic and Stanoje Stanojevic with their historical essays, helped spread the pro-Yugoslav propaganda so how do you expect this to stay in the article? Shall I continue with the rest of the Serbian "historians"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.130.77 (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please do. Hyacinthe Hecquard, "Histoire et description de la Haute Albanie ou Ghégarie", Paris 1859, pp. 178-180 says that they are Serb in origin. Augustin Theiner, the German historian, said that the Clementini hailed from a Clemente, whose father was a Serb from Moraccia (Morača), and mother was from Cucci (Kuči). [A. Theiner, Vetera monumenta Slavorum meridionalium historiam illustrantia Maximam partem nondum edita ex tabulariis Vaticanis, Zagrabiae 1875, p. 218: "Clemente, primo stipite, fu di padre serviano da Moraccia fiume, che scaturisce da Monte Negro sopra Cattaro, e di madre detta Bubesca, figlia di Vrijabegna da Cucci." (in Italian)]. Then there is three Serbian sources, and one Croat, which support the views that they have a Serb origin, and elaborate on their folkloric origin (a Kelmendi came from Moraca, Piperi, Kuci, Herzegovina etc), If you would instead counter these with other sources elaborating on their origin, that would be fine, but to simply erase them - Nah.--Zoupan 22:01, 5 July 2012 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
Hecguard was a French consul of Shkodra in the 1860s. How's he a scholar of any kind that can offer any insight? Or how about the Theiner, a theologian (!?..). The sentences don't even make sense in the way they're written. Comparative studies have gone a long way from 19th century stories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.59.156 (talk) 01:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Living in Shkodra can't possibly offer any insight, right? Theiner is a theologian AND historian. Why don't you add sources about other theories, or rather, "the theory"? Here's the excerpt from Hecquard btw.--Zoupan 01:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
I just checked the excerpt you provided. Three things: 1. This is a folkloric belief, the source mentions "secondo la loro traditione".Apparently he asked around and someone gave him this version. 2. If you read further down it describes how Clement (the first guy) with sons fought against the "Schiavoni" (fece guerra agli Schiavoni) and took their land and etc. etc. Since "Schiavoni" meant Slavic in those days' Italian, according to the page excerpt "the son of the Servian guy, whose name was Clement, together with his sons fought against the Slavs". This leads to some theories, supported by Albanian nationalistic views, who date back the term Serbian or Serv as "slavizised people" from the local extract, rather than being Rashka or Slavic themselves. Since this is a very difficult topic, I am not going to go further on this. 3. Another thing, one of Clementi sons formed the sub-tribe of Gionovichi, apparently his name was Gion or Gjon, just like Lesinevichi (from which the Clementis genealogical tree goes on) comes from Leicin Clementi: "...che sono i nomi Gionovichi, Massonovichi, e Lesinevichi...", "...da quello naque leicin Clementi..."
A guy living in the 19th century can't get the means to go into the detail you trying to propose ok? These are studies that require some sort of scientific framework. It's like using something someone from the 1700s wrote to explain an etymology or a genetics study. No linguistics or genetics back then. It's very simple once you realize the inherent fault of what you're proposing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.59.156 (talk) 02:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bad translation?

[edit]

"popoli quasi tutti latini, e di lingua Albanese e Dalmata" It's translated: "almost all are Latin, of language Albanian and Dalmatian". But the translation is "almost all are Catholics, speaking Albanian and Slavic"...What? 69.136.155.232 (talk) 23:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Dalmatian" is a glossonym for South Slavic, in this case - Serbian.--Zoupan 16:25, 12 May 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

I agree with 69.136.155.232,Im from Kelmendi,we dont speak serbian! We speak Albanian! We are Albanians not Serbians! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 13:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Kelmendi is Albanian. In 1610, the population spoke Albanian and South Slavic.--Zoupan 13:59, 7 March 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
Bizzi, 1610: "Prizren ... Schismatic ... In this region of Serbia they speak the Dalmatian language although the province penetrates partially into Albania, which has its own language."--Zoupan 19:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
Bartl: "dalmatinisch, d.h. slawisch und ortodox".--Zoupan 19:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

Copying Mondiad's comment from my talk page regarding the issue:--Zoupan 19:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

That's what Bici says. By 16-17th century, Serbians were pretty Orthodox, cannot be named Latini or Chatholics. That's a showstopper immediately. Latini could have pointed only to "Latinized" population, which Dalmati were a perfect example. Could the Dalmati be spoken to Malesia by 17th century? There are sources that was spoken inside coastal including Shkoder up to the 13th century. I don't know if Bici was right, but for sure he was mentioning what he wrote, not Slavoni or Servianni. We might not agree with him, but that doesn't mean we have to use the pretext "Bici meant Slavic with Dalmati". You can't make that assumption and change what Bici had in mind, even if wrong. You can challenge it, but that's another storyMondiad (talk) 18:40, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The reference clearly connects "Dalmatian" with Slavic (Serbian) and not Romance. Your evaluation of early modern religious makeup of Serbs makes no sense in this matter. Kelmend lies directly at the Montenegrin-Albanian border (and Serbian/Montenegrin-Albanian ethnic border), and judging by historical facts, this region without a doubt historically had a Slavic-speaking population besides the Albanian-speaking majority.--Zoupan 19:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

Bizzi says "latini". Ndihmesmjeku (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That has nothing to do with your removal of the meaning of Dalmatian–Serbian. Bizzi used "Dalmatian" for "Serbian".--Zoupan 15:24, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
The Dalmatian language was not spoken in the Sanjak of Prizren; Bizzi used "Dalmatian" for the main language in the sanjak, which was Serbian, and not Romance.--Zoupan 15:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

Rm that sentence, which is about Prizren, not Kelmend.Ndihmesmjeku (talk) 15:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bizzi used Dalmatian for Serbian, in the Sanjak of Prizren and Kelmend.--Zoupan 15:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
No, he used it only for the city of Prizren and the surrounding area, and this is very clear from the passage. I'll quote it.
...This city contains 8,600 quite large houses, almost all of which have courtyards like rural homes in Italy. It is larger than all other towns except Skopje which is 40 miles away. Prizren is irrigated by fountains and other sources of flowing water, which turn the water mills and enrichen and enliven the city.
Upon our arrival, we were told that some monks of the schismatic metropolitan had been waiting near the doorway of the priest's house where I was staying until one in the morning to meet me. The next morning I learned that they had only wanted to meet me. I heard nothing more of them during the three days I spent in Prizren, but on one of the mornings, the said schismatic metropolitan sent his janissary to force the priest to give him money, as usual.
In this city, a bell rings from atop one of the many minarets which belong to the mosques. It keeps time by means of a clock built for the Turks by some Frenchmen, something quite unusual in Turkey. There are hardly more than 30 Latin homes. There is a church bearing the name of Our Lady of the Assumption, which within a short period was set on fire three times by the Turks and looted twice, in particular on the occasion of the murder among the janissaries. It has a good portico in front of it and a very large cemetery surrounded by walls. It has a chalice and paten and a small image with a silver cross, which is placed upon the altar when mass is celebrated. It had two silk chasubles with two nice tablecloths and a golden fore altar for the choir. There was no shrine, no baptistry and no holy oils. We therefore gave them some of ours. There are many schismatics in the city. They much exceed the number of the Latins, who have at their disposal only two churches out of the 80 they once had.
I consecrated some little altars for this and other churches, confirmed a little more than 25 souls and offered communion to almost all the people, who indeed go to church every day with great devotion.
In this region of Serbia they speak the Dalmatian language although the province penetrates partially into Albania, which has its own language. As we could understand one another without an interpreter, I spoke to them and assured them that His Holiness, like a loving father, always had them in his mind and heart, desiring their salvation. I encouraged them to live unwaveringly in the Christian faith and not to let themselves be swayed by worldly interests to renounce the Church, as many of them had done, to the eternal damnation of their souls. God has set forth unspeakable punishment for the wicked just as he has prepared the glory of paradise for good Christians, who must all strive to observe divine law and valorously resist the enemies of their salvation.
From Prizren, we were to continue on to Janjeva,...
As you can see, dear Zoupan, the whole passage is about the city of Prizren and its surrounding region.
Now bear in mind that the city of Prizren is about 140 km in an aerial line from the Kelmend region (consider using google maps), so that sentence is completely misleading for this article, as it's relating to Prizren only. Please revert this edit of yours as that sentence is creating confusion in the article: Bizzi refers to Prizren, not to Kelmendi region, and the two are geographically far.
On the other hand Bizzi speaks about Kelmendi in another passage where he speaks exactly about Kelmend (popoli quasi tutti latini, e di lingua Albanese e Dalmata, p136), which Mondiad brought here earlier, where "dalmata" can't mean but dalmatian language, since he is specifying that these people are Latin, and can't be Slavic, and he is referring here to the Kelmend region. Those are two different passages, and Bartl is referring to the Prizren reference, but you are using it for Kelmend. You are confusing the reader putting in Bizzi's mouth something he is saying about Kelmend, when he is speaking about Prizren. Ndihmesmjeku (talk) 16:29, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Ndihmesmjeku, that reference isn't even in this article (!). Bizzi uses Latins (Latini) for religion, and that they speak Albanian (Albanese) and Serbian (Dalmata).--Zoupan 17:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
So being Catholic means that you cannot speak Slavic? That's a new one.--Zoupan 17:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
  • The South Slav Journal. Vol. 5–6. Dositey Obradovich Circle. 1983. p. 10. here begins Serbia, 'che e mediterranea, e arriva verso Danubio.' From here on, Bizzi says that 'la Lingua Dalmata' is spoken, the Serb language which was familiar to him ... (In questi paesi delta Servia si parla la lingua Dalmata) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.
So Bizzi's "lingua Dalmata" in Kelmend and Bizzi's "lingua Dalmata" in Serbia are two diferrent languages?--Zoupan 17:39, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
I'll answer that one: No, Bizzi used "lingua Dalmata" for Serbian, regardless of which region he described. The entry will not be removed, as it gives insight on culture of the Kelmendi. Thank you.--Zoupan 17:41, 24 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

Name

[edit]

The article is about region and tribe. The name refers only to region. Does anybody object renaming to Kelmend only?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a good idea.

The name "Kelmend" in albanians means "Ke mend" (Sharp minded),which theory was supported by Milan Šufflay.AlbertBikaj (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • AlbertBikaj, do you have a source confirming that? If you do, it could be added to the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ujkrieger (talk • contribs)
Requested uncontroversial move.--Zoupan 17:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]
"Kelmend tribe" (3), "Kelmendi tribe" (17), "Kelmend municipality" (0).--Zoupan 17:52, 11 January 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

*Comment: Move to Kelmendi as per Gjergj Fishta; Robert Elsie; Janice Mathie-Heck (2005). The Highland Lute. I.B.Tauris. pp. 432–. ISBN 978-1-84511-118-2.: "Kelmendi: Northern Albanian tribe and traditional tribal region".--Zoupan 17:54, 11 January 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Kelmendi (tribe). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography

[edit]
I am certain that whoever wrote large portions of this article either never had full access to the bibliography he used or was using it in a very warped manner for his own ends . For example, Marin Bizzi is quoted as saying that Kelmendi spoked Albanian and Dalmatian. He didn't. He used the name Kelmendi to refer to all the tribes of Montenegro and northern Albania. The actual quote is: ''It grieves me a lot that because of the high snowfall, I wasn't able to visit the Kelmendi peoples, who are almost entirely Latin, speak Albanian and Dalmatian and are divided in ten katuns: Kelmendi, Gruda, Hoti, Kastrati, Shkreli, Tuzi all Latins and Bjelopavlici, Piperi, Bratonosici, these are Dalmatians and Kuci of whom half are schismatics and half Latin.
The Albanian families of Gjonbalaj(Gjombalaj), Ulaj, Ahmetaj and Vuçetaj had, according to a Serbian source, previously the surnames of Đomboić, Uljević, Ahmetović and Vučetović The Serbian source says that before the 1990s, Albanians in Plava had -ić suffixes. In the 1990s, because persecution was not the same as in Yugoslavia they started to revert to their old surnames before 1946. The way the article makes it seem is as if these were the original surnames of these people and at some vague point in history (certainly not the 1990s) they changed their names. Whoever wrote this in this manner knew very well that the source didn't say anything of the sort.
Milan Šufflay (1879-1931) noted that among some Kelmendi, Nikola "Sharp-minded" Kolmendija (Nikola Oštroumni Kolmendija) was noted as the founding father. He never wrote that. He wrote that there is a folk etymology about a Kol Mendi (Nicholas the Clever), from the whom the community took its name Pučka etimologija izvodi to ime od pradjeda, koji se zvao Kol-mendi, oštroumni Nikola. in the original. Tomić (1913) that Kelmendi was originally Orthodox and Serbian will go. WP:AGEMATTERS-WP:RS It's basically a pamphlet written in the Balkan Wars to legitimize the expansion of the Serbian state southwards. Also, there is no archival evidence that ever supported it, including everything that archival research since then has showed. This wouldn't pass in a peer review process of a paper in 2020, so it doesn't have to pass in wikipedia either.--Maleschreiber (talk) 04:17, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kelmendi_(tribe)&oldid=1251162092"