Talk:Khirbat al-Shuna

Palestine Mid‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Where is it? How was it called?

Tel Mubarak = Tel Mevorah (תל מבורך)?? --Sreifa (talk) 10:59, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Negev & Gibson write about the ancient village of Kefar Shumi or Kefar Shami, close to the springs used as water source for Caesarea.^[1] In 1902 it was known in Arabic as Shuni by its own inhabitants and Mayumas by people from nearby Jisr ez-Zarqa, the latter using that name until today.^[1]

The Encyclopaedia Judaica speaks of the archaeological site known in Arabic as Khirbat Miyāmās, identified with 3rd-century Kfar Shumi or Shami from the Jerusalem Talmud.^[2]

Then there's the site of Tell Mubarak, which might be identical with Tel Mevorah - or not.

The article doesn't offer a single ref for the adopted name. Is Khirbat al-Shuna a real name? Who used it and when? If so: did anyone, ever, spell it with a as opposed to e (Khirbet el/esh-Shuneh/Shuna) while the village still existed? I doubt it.

Far too many names, many of which aren't even mentioned in this "article", with far too little clarity on what's what. The Nakba isn't all, always.

References

^ ^a ^b Negev, Avraham; Gibson, Shimon, eds. (2001). "Maiumas (c); Shuni-Mayumas". Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land. New York and London: Continuum. pp. 309, 468–469. ISBN 0-8264-1316-1.
^ Avi-Yonah, Michael; Gibson, Shimon (2008). "Maiumas". Maiumas. Encyclopaedia Judaica (2nd ed.). The Gale Group. Retrieved 15 May 2024 – via Jewish Virtual Library.

Arminden (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Write it or delete it

There is no info on the alleged village in the entire "article" beyond a challangeable name (see above). Khirbet might mean: not populated. There was an Arab village at Shuni/Mayumas, but does "Khirbet as-Shuna" have anything to do with it? Maybe the latter was just a khirba near the village for all we know.

The huge mansion in the photo might as well be the country residence of an effendi, which doesn't need to be connected to a village.

We have less than nothing here. Arminden (talk) 08:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1940s map has a tiny "Kh.EshShuna" with trees and a lonely, large hashed black square - what is it? Map legend is cropped out. Maybe the ancient ruins? In any case, it doesn't seem to have any houses (the solid black squares south of it seem to represent houses).

So, where was the alleged Kh. esh-Shuna village? Arminden (talk) 08:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a stub. Shuna and Shuneh are the same, Khirbat and Khirbet are also the same, so no reason to complain about the name. This place was officially classified as a hamlet in 1947. Archaeological information is in various places such as Dauphin p742. It is listed in the 1931 census together with Zikhron Yaaqov so there is no separate population given. Tell Mubarak is at 1434/2155 at the north end of Beit Hanania, so I'm not sure it is close enough to include. I don't have time to fix this article, but it can be fixed. Zero^talk 12:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When was it a village? Hamlet means close to nothing and besides, the word used in the art. is village, not hamlet. Was it inhabited in 48? A khirba can be abandoned or repopulated. Maybe the mansion was used by a wealthy family and the whole was as estate? But the Irgun used it quite early on, so maybe there were no more Arabs there by 48. Zero detail & unsourced. The "sources" are added like an afterthought at the bottom, and none of them sppears as inline ref.

It can't be kept if it stays like this, it's far below standard. Suggest removing it by the end of this month if not improved. Arminden (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Classification as a hamlet in 1948 proves that it had a population for at least some part of the year. All populated places are regarded as notable, even if there is scant information about them. Zero^talk 02:23, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Arminden it is mentioned in the 1922 + 1931 census (cannot find it in the 1945 census), still digging, Huldra (talk) 22:11, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Zero0000 I find Umm el Alak (one of the places mentioned together with this one under Zikhron Ya'akov in the 1931 census), but I cannot find this one or any of the kirbas mentioned on SWP map 8: Do you have better eyes/better luck? Huldra (talk) 22:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: In the place of Khirbat el-Shuna, SWP has Mâ-mâs with remains of a Roman theater (SWP II, 66). Left edge of map 8. No mention of a population. Umm el 'Alak is there, SWP II 71 just says "ruined walls". Zero^talk 02:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1945 listing is according to village land boundaries and this place is in Binyamina and not mentioned separately. So we can't say from that if there was a population or not. Zero^talk 02:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

QED.

There is a Late Ottoman-looking mansion there and the landlord, Khouri something from Lebanon, is the most likely owner and possibly builder. But as of now: not even a hamlet. I don't believe every country mansion is notable, let alone does it constitute a hamlet.

The Irgun owned the place in the early 40s, so no 47-49 depopulation.

On the other hand, it has a rich ancient history, and again a "Zionist" one. That's where it belongs, except for that mansion. Some you must let go of ;) Arminden (talk) 10:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Phooey. Per WP:POPULATED, populated places are considered notable even if they are now deserted. Anyway in 1948 it was a hamlet. If you have a source about an Irgun connection, where is it? Zero^talk 11:13, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Arminden: you always the first to demand that I minutely source everything, but you tell us we "must let go", without a shred of proof? Funny. Huldra (talk) 20:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since May is "instantly"? How many articles based on hot air were deleted faster than after half a year?

We have nothing here. I am the one who pointed out the manor and Khouri, so please. The rest is zilch.

Not every name on a Napoleonic, PEF or Mandate map was a "Palestinian village". Without population, it's not a village. Arminden (talk) 00:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I never claimed "instantly". And the place had a population. And you still haven't stated where you heard about Khory and Irgun and this place. (In the pub, Saturday night??) I have heard too many made-up stories; just recently: see Talk:Kerem_Maharal. Huldra (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have Khalidi as a source that it was a Palestinian village or hamlet. Khalidi didn't just look at maps. The Gazetteer distinguishes between ruin, khirba and hamlet in its classification, the main difference being the presence of a population. Here "kirba" when used for classification means "an abandoned or a temporary site of habitation". This is independent of the name (a place called Khirbat X is not necessarily classified as a khirba and many are classified as ruins or villages). This one is classified as a hamlet, ergo it had a population. Zero^talk 01:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't go to pubs, unfortunately, or else I'd be wasting less time on Wiki.

There's lots of material on the Irgun base if you bother to look for it.

But I'm sure you prefer Arabic sources, so here is one. In 2016 I've downloaded a list of places called Shuna posted by a certain Dr. Muhammad Aqil (Google Translate rendering; there is a historian named Muhammad 'Aqil, I guess it's him), in Arabic, on arab48.com. The URL is gone by now:

www.arab48.com/?mod=articles&ID=108690

It states that Salim Effendi el-Khoury built the mansion [Israeli sourxes have Salim as the last owner, not as the builder] today called "the castle", and granaries, whence the name. There was a mention of something being there in the 16th c., but Google Translate made the usual mess of it: "... it was called Mimas [Maiumas] in the Roman period, and the affiliated farm was mentioned Atlit Coast in a detailed notebook of the Lajjun Brigade [?] for the year AD 1596." From 1912-13 on he talks about it being bought by Jews, who settled what they called "Givat Binyamina", left (swamps), resettled in 1922 at Binyamina, "initially called the Jewish barn" (Shuna el-Yehudiya?). Etzel used it as training centre, and as staging place for attacks against Arab communities. Since 1931 the Arab population (!) was included in census of Zichron. At that time they numbered, together with the Arabs of "Umm al-Alaq" village, 314 people. They were displaced in early 1948.

That much from M. Aqel. I could only find an Umm al-Alaq as part of an "Arab al-Mashariqa" here at Palquest, and by itself here at Pal. Remenbered. 'Arab' in topnyms indicates Bedouin tribal areas.

[This Israeli plaque] seen in a photo at Pal. Remenbered talks of "settlers of the Houri House", whoever they might have been, and from what time.

314 people in two 1931 sites inside Arab el-Something looks like Bedouin, but probably (semi-?) sedentary by that time. The question remains: if the Irgun owned the place, used it as training centre and as staging grounds for attacks against surrounding Arab communities, what's the chance that they shared the "fortress" with sedentary Arabs who were only displaced in early 1948? I'd say zero.

palquest.org is more than vague, mixing it with far-away Al-'Abbasiyya, Jaffa, to the point where it's not clear to which of the two the section re. depopulation refers to. Zochrot practically copies it. Remarkable is that "Its original name was al-Shuna, and by the mid-1920s it had been engulfed by the Zionist settlement of Binyamina, founded in 1922 and known as 'Jewish al-Shuna' (al-Shuna al-yahudiyya). The Palestinian village was thereafter referred to as Khirbat al-Shuna." So once Binyamina is created and expands, Arabs rename Shuna as The Ruins of Shuna. I see.

For the Israeli narrative, google for "Shuni Fortress" and "Jabotinsky Park". The JNF page for the "Jabotinsky Shuni Park" reads:

"The building that occupies the site today was built in the 18th century, during the period of Ottoman rule. Because its rooms make use of the arches that once supported the theater seats, the structure is shaped like a half-moon. A number of rooms were also built in the aisles, and a wall was constructed around the stage.

"Towards the end of the Ottoman period, Shuni and its environs were owned by one Salim Khouri, whose family was originally from Lebanon. After he bought the land he planted it with a large number of mulberry trees to provide food for silkworms. During this period, the site was also known as Khirbet Miamas, a name that may well preserve the memory of the Water Celebrations of the Roman era.

"Jewish Settlement in Shuni

The Jewish Colonization Association (ICA), which was responsible for managing Baron Edmond de Rothschild’s land and colonies, acquired Shuni in 1912 and 1913 as part of the Umm al-Alaq property. The land was purchased in an attempt to create contiguous Jewish settlement from the Zichron Yaakov area to the property acquired for the colony of Binyamina.

"In 1914, the Ottoman structure was settled by a group of young farmers’ sons from Zichron Yaakov who called themselves the Gidonites (HaGid‘onim), and they renamed the site Givat Binyamina in honor of Baron de Rothschild, one of whose middle names was Benjamin. The Gidonites provided the nucleus of the NILI underground movement led by Aaron Aaronson. Other settlers at Shuni included groups of laborers engaged in building the road from Zichron Yaakov to Shuni and Hadera. These attempts to settle the site were, however, cut short by the outbreak of the First World War.

"In 1919, Baron de Rothschild renewed his activities at Shuni, and for the next three years, members of the nucleus (gar‘in) of the Binyamina founders were trained there. The site was settled by a group of youngsters from well-established colonies and veterans of the Hebrew Brigades who busied themselves draining swamps and growing field crops, almonds and olives. After Binyamina was founded in 1922, Shuni continued to operate for a while longer as an agricultural training center. In 1925, however, the farm was discontinued and Shuni was abandoned.

"In 1939, at the time of the Tower and Stockade settlement operations, a group of Beitar members arrived in the area and established a settlement named Tel Tzur on the hill between Shuni and Ramat HaNadiv. This isolated spot turned out to be ideal for weapons practice and the training of Irgun units. A year later [in 1940], the Tel Tzur settlers moved into the Shuni building, which was then also pressed into service as a military training site. These activities came to a halt on August 16th, 1945, when the British army raided Shuni and arrested twenty members of the Irgun, who later received lengthy prison sentences.

"Shuni served as an operational base for a large number of military campaigns, including the attack on the Camp 80 ammunition store near Pardess Hanna and raids on British police stations. It was also the departure point for the Irgun’s most famous exploit – the Acco prison break of May 4th, 1947, in which members of the Irgun and Lehi (Fighters for the Freedom of Israel) organizations were broken out of jail by their comrades.

"The Shuni site stood neglected for many years until, in 1986, at the behest of the National Council for the Conservation of Early Settlement Sites, KKL-JNF embarked upon a campaign to save the building. After it had been strengthened and restored with the help of the Shuni Association, it became a popular national site in the middle of a park dedicated to the memory of Zeev Jabotinsky."

Elsewhere I found that it was deserted by the Irgun in 48. So

- 1919-1925 Jews desiccate the swamp, farm the area.

- 1931 British census

- 1940 the Irgun takes over the 18th c. mansion built on top of the Roman theatre. They use the site as their main military base.

- 1945 British raid, Irgun's anti-British "activities came to a halt" at Shuni. Apparently not for long:

- 1947 (May): Shuni is "the departure point" for Irgun’s Acre prison break.

- 1948, 6 April: staging place for attack on British Camp 80 Karkur (see here for more). There were many attacks ("raids") on British police stations, of which one happened in 1947 in Haifa, not far from Shuni (see Irgun bombing of police headquarters in Haifa)

- 1948 Irgun leaves the site, which remains deserted

- 1986 the JNF starts rehabilitation work.

This is the Israeli story. Let's see how the two narratives combine. Maybe B. Morris can help re. 1948. Arminden (talk) 12:17, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[AEHL-1] Negev, Avraham; Gibson, Shimon, eds. (2001). "Maiumas (c); Shuni-Mayumas". Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land. New York and London: Continuum. pp. 309, 468–469. ISBN 0-8264-1316-1.

[JE-2] Avi-Yonah, Michael; Gibson, Shimon (2008). "Maiumas". Maiumas. Encyclopaedia Judaica (2nd ed.). The Gale Group. Retrieved 15 May 2024 – via Jewish Virtual Library.

[1]

[2]