Talk:Ksar

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Military history: Fortifications / African / Middle East / Early Muslim Start‑class

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This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
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This article was nominated for merging with Kasbah on 14 April 2013. The result of the discussion was against merging.

Qadad or adobe?

Adobe is sundried mud, optionally rammed, qadad is rammed with a chemically waterproofed surface. Is this adobe or qadad? HLHJ (talk) 11:59, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

place names called ksar, qasr, etc

A list of places called this would be good. What is al qasr? 150.101.50.100 08:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See Qasr. Technically it's a disambig page not a list article but you can get a sense of the various places. Al qasr just means "the qasr", see Arabic definite article. -- œ^™ 10:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Kasbah?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was against the merging proposal: the consensus view is that the two terms refer to different classes of structure, though the articles may not adequately show the distinction in their present state. (NAC) —Odysseus 1479 01:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There's really no need to have two articles talking about the same thing under two different names.173.56.23.222 (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge - well they aren't the same, which is why every other wp separates them. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then the articles need to more clearly distinguish between the two and each stop giving the same examples and respectively calling them either a ksar or kasbah. Otherwise, they're both terms for the same type of fort/castle located in North African cities and prevalent among the Berber populations.207.237.208.153 (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is clear, a ksar is a communal fortified village in which the building is controlled by many families, a kasbah is controlled by one family or ruler. Combining the two would be wrong, as would combining them with agadirs (communal fortified warehouses), tagadirts (smaller versions of same) or pasha's palaces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.171.1 (talk) 20:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, this is a research assistant at an undergrad school with a major in History and Middle Eastern Islamic Studies. They call them "Qasr" east of the Red Sea, from what I can tell. They are definitely different from Casbahs. Here's a map with some examples: http://www.dainst.org/sites/default/files/media/abteilungen/orient/damaskus/Qasr%20MushashAbb_01.jpg Also check out Qasr Amra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.162.55 (talk) 02:45, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge as was said by the IP 77.103.171.1 the difference is clear, a ksar is a communal fortified village in which the building is controlled by many families, a kasbah is controlled by one family or ruler. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 17:04, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Qsar not ksar

@Largoplazo: The ق is usually transliterated into English as Q. Representing ق with a K is French orthography. The non-Arabic signage in Tunisia is typically French, is it not? إيان بريم (talk) 01:45, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are several English language sources using qsar instead of ksar. إيان بريم (talk) 02:00, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are more English language sources using "ksar" instead of "qsar": [1]. With Google Books set to list 100 results per page, your query runs out for me after the third page, while my query doesn't run out till after the fourth.

Also, looking other Google searches:

When I run a Google Web search for hallouf tunisia, the spelling "ksar" appears 188 times on the first page of (primarily if not exclusively English) results, and "qsar" not at all.
Likewise, a Google Web search for ouled soltane lists 270 instances of "ksar" on the first page of results, and zero instances of "qsar".
Google Books searches for "ksar ouled soltane" and "qsar ouled soltane" yield, respectively, over 200 hits and 4 hits.

Largoplazo (talk) 02:14, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, for قَابُس we ordinarily write "Gabes", not "Qabes", and for قفصة we ordinarily write "Gafsa", not "Qafsa". Largoplazo (talk) 02:25, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Qsar is still valid and used and citable, and therefore should be in the article. In the dimension of hits on Google ksar might come ahead, but in the dimension of proximity to the actual word used by non-francophone people in the relevant areas, it doesn't. Qsar is more representative of the endemic pronunciation, instead of coming to English filtered through French orthography.

I'm more familiar with Moroccan dialects than Tunisian dialects. Here, the ق in qsar gets a standard pronunciation, and I imagine it's the same in Tunisia but please correct me if I'm wrong. إيان بريم (talk) 02:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should you be interested, as an aside on the details of the Tunisian pronunciation, see Tunisian Arabic#Consonants.

"Tunisia" isn't very much like the name by which speakers of most languages, including Standard and Tunisian Arabic, spell or pronounce the name of the country, but that's what it's known as in English, so that's what it's called on Wikipedia, though we do call the capital "Tunis", which is close enough. My point is that I agree with you on how it comes out under typical conventions for transliteration/transcription, but that isn't the criterion that Wikipedia follows. Largoplazo (talk) 02:48, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Places named Ksar"

I'm recommending removing this section entirely ([2]; see also one of my earlier edits, [3]). This isn't a DAB article and this list isn't useful to readers, since they have no relation to the topic beyond the etymological coincidence of their names. A single sentence mentioning that it's a common toponym would be sufficient to cover this, if needed. If a list of places with the word "Ksar" in their names is really needed, a separate category or a set index article would be more appropriate and could be linked in the "See also" section. R Prazeres (talk) 05:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why, when removing the section entirely, you wrote an edit summary saying that you recommend removing it entirely, and then made the same recommendation here as though you were seeking consensus before doing it.

Having said that, I guess I agree. River doesn't have a list of all the places with "river" in their names, nor should it. A list of actual ksars (ksour?) would be appropriate, though. Largoplazo (talk) 10:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if that was confusing, I meant it just as a way of implying that there isn't (to my knowledge) a clear policy requiring such a removal, but here are the reasons I think it should be removed. Of course, WP:BRD applies if there's disagreement.

A list of actual ksour could be useful, yes. There is a Category:Ksars, but it's a poor and unreliable substitute for a sourced list. There is already a List of ksour in Tunisia, which is based on a presumably reliable source. So potentially one or more additional list articles might be appropriate instead, if we there is a large number of them to list for other countries. R Prazeres (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]