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Talk:La cheminée du roi René

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The Fireplace of King René

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I'm almost positive that the title translates as The Morning Walk of King René, since (I thought?) cheminée means Consitutional. Was I mistaken? Maybe I'm mistaken... Schissel | Sound the Note! 09:52, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is an account of the two interpretations in the footnote attached to the title. There are "citation needed" tags on both versions, though I do not believe it should be difficult to supply them. FWIW, I recall a tour guide at King René's Château de Tarascon pointing out a particularly magnificent fireplace, and stating that it must have been the famous cheminée. Probably just hokum for the tourists.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:20, 16 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you are right, but I deleted the unsourced description from the article, and the name "King Rene's stroll". The French Wikipedia article is dubious, too. At least the English name The Chimney of King Rene has been in use since 1942. See this. (If other names have been used, please add them.) Thanks anyway. --Teika kazura (talk) 06:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you have just tagged the section of the French Wikipedia article as "dubious". This is very amusing, since that is the only section in the entire article that includes verifying citations. Why do you find those citations (to the Dictionnaire du Moyen Français de l'ATILF and to a passage from Walter Scott's Anne de Geierstein) doubtful? I have placed a "citation needed" tag on the translation given here, since there has been controversy in the past that is not resolved by simply removing the incomplete citation in the previous footnote.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:43, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how the French Wikipedia article's citing of Dictionnaire du Moyen Français de l'ATILF [fr; de] can be considered dubious. Here's what it says:
and the related
Apparently, in this context, cheminée is derived from cheminement. Also, the French translation by Albert Montémont [fr] of Scott's Anne of Geierstein makes it quite clear that a cheminée is a promenade (p. 254). The titles of the movemements also bear a stronger relationship to "stroll" than to "chimney/fireplace". I suggest to change the translation back to "The Stroll of King René" (which has some serious sources), or at least provide a footnote on the translation problem. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:59, 21 July
In the original musical score, republished by Southern Music in 1958, the title was translated as "The Chimney of King René". The capricious story of courtly love by Louis Lurine from the 1853 literary journal L'Écho des feuilletons, mentions the thumb–in–cheek provençal proverb.
In the Naxos liner notes, Keith Anderson writes, "[Milhaud's] suite for wind quintet, La Cheminée du roi René (The Chimney of King René) was drawn from collaboration with Roger Désormières and Honegger on the score for a film, Cavalcade d’amour, which consisted of three episodes of love at different periods of history, the Middle Ages, 1830 and 1930. Milhaud chose the first with scenes evoking the cours d’amour of the fifteenth-century King René, Count of Provence and titular King of Naples, a ruler fondly remembered, who introduced the muscatel grape to the region. His Cheminée was a sheltered spot that he favoured, now one of the main streets of Aix ..." Here's another programme note from the Brubeck Institute taking the same English title.
The etymology from fr.wikipedia might be original research; however, it is true that the French translation of Sir Walter Scott's historical novel of the same year 1829 uses the phrases 'se promener' and 'cheminée' for the Wars of the Roses and René of Anjou. Laying aside Lurine's story of chivalry, with its ambiguous proverb, "promenade" seems like a better translation than "stroll": it has the same sense, is latinate and has 3 syllables. Perhaps the best idea is to give the English-language translation, "The Chimney or Promenade of King René," possibly with explanatory footnotes. Scott was a rather serious writer; Milhaud's popular suite, however, seems less serious, with an air of whimsy tinged with wistful melancholy. So by all means, why not take the first English translation title (1942) as well as the other possibility, using references to Scott (trans. Montémont) and Lurine plus appropriate footnotes. Mathsci (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt that many English-language program notes go for the obvious meaning of wikt:cheminée. They miss the context: in time (medieval), history (Roi René), and music (movement titles). The description you quote above, "His Cheminée was a sheltered spot that he favoured, now one of the main streets of Aix ...", makes a chimney or fireplace unlikely. I agree that "promenade" is a much better word than "stroll". As for OR: there are some easily discovered sources for "stroll" (here and here), but unfortunately I haven't found any for "promenade". But: the proposed change, "The Promenade of King René", affects only a parenthetical translation. It would be wrong to move the article to such a title, but Wikipedia is full of unsourced translations, so I think that's no big deal. Still, a footnote explaining the prevalent a-historical "chimney" translation should probably be added. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:04, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As explained in the main body of the article the French proverb "se chauffer a la cheminée du roi René" is well-known: it is mentioned in the fanciful story of Louis Larine; the saying appears in a 1822 Dictionnaire des proverbes français by Pierre de La Mésangère; and in a 1786 Nouveau dictionnaire historique by Louis-Mayeul Chaudon. It has the same meaning: to enjoy the sunshine in Provence during the winter months, an idle pursuit. As other wikipedian editors have mentioned, Southern Music's original publication of the score and musical parts, which dates back to 1941 or 1942, was translated into English as "The Chimney of King René". References from Keith Anderson's Naxos liner notes about the cours Mirabeau seem anachronistic. (At the time of writing, IRL I lived for a long period in Aix; I started the English article based on the fr.wikipedia stub; I had heard a live performance by the Berlin Philharmonic Wind Quintet in 2008 outdoors at Grand Saint-Jean during the Aix Festival, hampered by the Mistral; and by bus and by minibus I later visited the Pavilion in Gardanne and the Chateau of Tarascon on the Rhone.) Le bon roi René has become part of Provencal folklore; and, like the medieval part of the 1939 light-hearted film, it is hard to untangle that folklore. René of Anjou appears in the cast of William Shakespeare's History Plays and later Walter Scott historical novels. In summary:

  • The French title reflects a whimsical reference to a Provençal proverb; the references to Aix & environs/exploits are fanciful. In Milhaud's day the River Arc was a quaint stream skirting the old town. (The Arc goes through Le Tholonet, not far from the refuge of Cezanne and Montagne Sainte-Victoire.) The Arc was later bypassed by an autoroute, with an exit for Pont de l'Arc, where two Corsican-mafia-racketeers on motorcycles gunned down a local brasserie owner, on the same boulevard as Milhaud's family home, the Bras d'Or.
  • The musical score and parts were published in 1941–1942 with the US title "The Chimney of King René"; its performances and traditions (including the Darius Milhaud Society) are linked to Milhaud's time at Mills College as a refugee.
  • I agree with your use of the a-historical parenthetical title "The Chimney of King René", giving one or more references to the well-documented Provençal proverb.
  • Unfortunately Naxos liner notes and other programme notes are not particularly reliable. For the sleeve note of an early 1950s L'Oiseau Lyre recording (with Rampal et al), the English translator chose "fireplace"; the proverb indicates the heat was from the winter sun.[1] But, as you mention, the English title published in the 1941/1942 US musical score seems like a reasonable solution and is not a big deal.
  • Perhaps extra French-language references can be added to the current section on the Provençal proverb (entire documents are available for the 1822 and 1786 encyclopedias). In addition, perhaps a final brief paragraph could be added concerning Sir Walter Scott's historical novel, in is French-language translation:
— Vous ne me comprenez pas, ≫ dit le guide an riant, ≪ Ce que nous appelons la cheminée du roi René est cette terasse étroite que vous voyez là; ell s'étende entre ses deux tours, est exposée au midi, et arbitrée dans toutes les autres directions. Le grand plaisir de du roi est de s'y promener et d'y jouir des rayons du soleil par des matinées si fraiches que celle-ci. Cette promenade, dit-il, entretient sa veine poétique. Si vous approche de lui, il vous parlera aisément, à moins toutefois qu'il ne soit à occupé composer ses vers.≫
In Walter Scott's original (Vol.III, page 168), it is:
"You mistake my meaning," said the guide, laughing.—"What we call King René's chimney is the narrow parapet yonder; it extends between these two towers, has an exposure to the south and is sheltered in every other direction. Yonder it is his pleasure to walk and enjoy the beams of the sun, on such cool mornings as the present. It nurses, he says, his poetical vein. If you approach his promenade he will readily speak to you, unless, indeed, he is in the act of a poetical composition."

Mathsci (talk) 11:30, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for providing Scott's original passage. To the matter at hand: What's to be done? Leaving solely "chimney" as the English translation seems to miss the meaning or even be misleading. A footnote of a sentence or two could clarify the context. What about:
"By chimney, an outdoor sunny passage is meant, which was a favourite pleasure walk of the king."
-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:16, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The American title is the one under which it was published by Southern Music in 1941–1942. So I would suggest adding the followng to the section on "Genesis":
In late eighteenth– and early nineteenth-century French dictionaries of proverbs, "se chauffer à la cheminée du roi René," (literally, to warm up at the fireplace of King René) meant to walk about and enjoy the morning sunshine during the winter months in Provence. In Sir Walter Scott's historical novel Anne of Geierstein, translated almost immediately into French, René of Anjou appears as one of the characters; in the novel, "King René's chimney" is a reference to his favourite pleasure of promenading outdoors in the sun.
Mathsci (talk) 14:30, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, although I think mentioning a potential alternative translation, "The Promenade of Roi René", could well be insert after « … the winter months in Provence, allowing for an alternative translation of the title as "The Promenade of Roi René". » The text should also be consolidated with the existing last paragraph in that section to avoid repetition regarding the proverb. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
After being confused by the page numbers (fr. 256= en. p. 347, the end of chap 29 with the cue for above quote "But if it is good King René you seek, you will find him at this time walking in his chimney.") it seems to me that Scott might be making up a specific landmark for fictional purposes; the proverb dictionaries both mention Marseilles. Sparafucil (talk) 20:48, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I still think that the OP's (Schissel) and my reading of cheminée as derived from cheminement (a walk) is correct; see also a related use in Camino de Santiago. Chimney seems a poor translation of a French pun. But, chimney is obviously out there, and there's a long tradition of verifiability beating truth on Wikipedia. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a French speaker, I can confirm that "cheminée" can refer to both meanings, and that the "promenade" one, pun aside, is obviously the correct one here (a "Cortège" [1st mvt.] does not quite fit into a chimney, and I hardly see how one could be jousting there...). Of course, then we get back to WP:CIRC (sources basing their usage on Wikipedia is not unheard of) and WP:VNT. A better solution would be simply to not include the inaccurate translation in the lead (especially if its from 1942 - perfectly ok to reject such a dated source). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:22, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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