Talk:List of European cities by population within city limits

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Official population?[edit]

Just above the table, there reads: The cities are sorted by the column labelled Official population.
However, the table does not have column with that text. So, which column was meant? (talk) 16:55, 20 July 2015 (UTC)


In 2015, the municipality of Brussels had 175,534 inhabitants. Using the population of the entire Brussels Region is an error. This has been mentioned before; see Talk:List of largest cities in the European Union by population within city limits. — 37 (talk) 10:42, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Unexplained changes[edit]

A Russian user from Moscow has changed the list to make Moscow the largest city. No explanation was given, and it seems to be a case of socking as well. Any reversion by the same user or a sock of theirs will go to ANI. BRD calls for discussion, not explained and repeated nationalist POV-pushing. Jeppiz (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I made changes because the ranking of cities is misleading. I have read the discussion above and agree with the opinion that only the European part of Istanbul should be considered as relevant in the ranking because the article deals with Europe, not Asia. I have provided references to support my position. These references have been ignored by the user Jeppiz who have been undoing my edits and deleting references a number of times.Denghu (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
  • The result of the discussion above was "Display the full population and note the split in footnotes where relevant", but your edits did not show the full population. Batternut (talk) 10:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC
  • Maybe restoring my edits and indicating Istanbul's entire population while ranking it second in accordance with the population of its European part would be accurate?Denghu (talk) 10:36, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, perhaps something like that, though the result might be confusing. Perhaps you could demonstrate it somewhere? Batternut (talk) 11:04, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
  • I also find Jeppiz's revert comment somewhat unfriendly, yet I am more insterested in improving the accuracy of the article so that my edits are not targeted. I would go for colour-coding but would also resume the discussion concernting splitting the population of transcontinental cities because some users might ignore the colour and remain unaware of the geographical borders of Europe and whether or not they are relevant in the ranking.Denghu (talk) 10:32, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

How to evaluate cities or countries which are split between Asia and Europe?[edit]

I would like to resume discussion whether or not the population of transcontinental cities should be taken into consideration in the ranking of cities in this article. My argument is that the title says "European cities" and there are conventional borders of Europe. Therefore the ranking should be based only on the population of the European part of transcontinental cities because the article does not mention Asia or Africa. This approach would make the data in this article more reliable and accurate. Colour coding would also be helpful, however it is not enough. Denghu (talk) 10:43, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

If you think a wider discussion is worth-while, as it relates to more articles than just this one perhaps it could be worth raising at one of the interested wikiprojects - WP:EUROPE or WP:WPLISTS...? Batternut (talk) 10:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. How do I start a discussion there? I am new to this.Denghu (talk) 10:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Advice on opening RFC's is at WP:RFC, and on challenging closed discussions is at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. Btw, List of urban areas in Europe has the same issue. PS I'm new here too! Batternut (talk) 11:21, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
@Denghu: should the same approach as you describe also be applied to the country lists, eg List of European countries by population and List of Asian countries by population, featuring the transcontinental countries of Russia and Turkey? Likewise Europe which you have just edited to place Moscow above Istanbul, though in the politics section the population and area stats for Russia and Turkey remain the country-wide figures rather than the those for just the European parts? Batternut (talk) 14:02, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, factually it is more accurate to consider only the population/area of European Russia and European Turkey in the list of European countries by population/area. It simply doesn't make sense to list Turkey as a European country with a population of some 80m when most of its territory is geographically in Asia. The same goes for Russia. This seems to be a wider issue than I had expected and a broader discussion is necessary. The goal is to make Wikipedia articles more accurate in dealing with issues like this one. Denghu (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Could I point out we already had an RfC on exactly this topic in the autumn, and the close was to include full populations. One cannot choose to ignore RfCs, as Denhgu is doing, just because one doesn't like the outcome. Jeppiz (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
@Jeppiz:, if one doesn't like the outcome, one can resume the discussion, especially if one didn't take part in it and if the discussion involved just a few contributors. If you are satisfied with the current solution, it doesn't mean other people are expected to like it and remain silent.Denghu (talk) 14:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Hello, came across this by chance. I would like to point out the obvious, there is only one Istanbul and it's considered a European city. I recognize that it is a transcontinental city but it is still just one city. Thus it should be included on only one page and since it's located here it ought to be presented as a full entity. Therefore I could only recommend using the entire population of Istanbul. If necessary note the population split in the comments. As per RfC. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your input. Istanbul is indeed one city, however the article deals with European cities, not transcontinental cities (Europe and Asia, Europe and Africa). This issue has to be addressed because factually the current ranking is inaccurate. Either the title of the article has to be changed, or the ranking adjusted to conform to the geographical notion of Europe, or two tables made for cities fully in Europe and for transcontinental cities which is a separate case.Denghu (talk) 14:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, the issue has been addressed. That's what an Rfc is, an opportunity to present different views ans reach a decision. That's what we've already had, and the decision was to count Istanbul as one city with all of its population. Jeppiz (talk) 14:39, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
The article title is fine, the single table is fine, Istanbul shouldn't be cut into pieces, this level of nitpicking is not necessary, the footnote completely solves the minor problem. Let's all move on and stop trying to get people blocked because they made an edit or two that you didn't like. Sepsis II (talk) 14:49, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2016[edit]

Gonrah (talk) 10:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC) The position of Belgrade in the list is wrong. It is placed 16th with population of 1,166,763 while the 17th city in the list (Barcelona) has a population of 1,602,386 which is much higher. It is the same with all the cities until position 27 (Rostov-on-Don with population of 1,104,000). So, in order to fix this, Belgrade has to be moved down the list on position 26.

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E 14:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Becky Sayles, he doesn't need to, the error is in the article. Take a look at the table with Belgrade on it and then above and below it, it's been put together wrong. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:00, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Mr rnddude I already saw the table, and the source. It does not appear to reflect the number in the table correctly. 1166763 corresponds to Насеље Београд, but it is not clear from the document that this corresponds to the city limits. 1659440 corresponds to Београдски регион, which seems to translate to Beograd region, which would make the placement in the table correct. I cannot say that based on the source provided that the requested edit is actually appropriate. But if anyone else feels more comfortable with translating Serbian...  B E C K Y S A Y L E 15:28, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Becky Sayles hilariously, I happen to speak Serbian (though Cyrillic is a pain for me). I'll take a look tomorrow and notify you of what I find. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:31, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually quickly; Насеље Београд -> Naselje Beograd -> Town of Belgrade and Београдски регион -> Beogradski region -> Region of Belgrade. Hope that helps. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:35, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
@Becky Sayles No ref is as no change to the figure is requested, Mr rnddude and Gonrah are right. It's just about correcting the position in the table. The clue is in the description of the table: "The cities are sorted by the column labelled Population within city limits". You don't need to read the existing reference. Batternut (talk) 08:34, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
If translation is needed, I have provided it in my last comment. Насеље Београд/Naselje Beograd would refer to the Town of Belgrade, this would be the population within the city's limits. Whereas Београдски регион/Beogradski region or the Belgrade region would be referring to both the population within the city limits and all the surrounding regional populations. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Batternut While your analysis seems reasonable, I believe it may be incomplete. The edit request does address changing the position in the table. But as an editor responding to the request, it is necessary to adhere to applicable policy. Based on the original request, it appears that there is an error in the ordering. This could be because the numbers do not correspond to the populations within city limits listed, or because the figures listed are incorrect. Moving Belgrade down to 26th on the list would suggest not only that 1166763 is the correct and verifiable figure based on the translation provided above, but also that each of the other cities figures are correct and verifiable because assigning an order indicates their relative position on the list. Just starting with Barcelona there is a problem as the source cited does not appear to list Bercelona. Given that the page was protected due to edit-warring/content dispute, it would seem inappropriate for a responding editor make the requested edit without addressing underlying and related issues. This should probably have reliable sources as well as a consensus established before being requested again.  B E C K Y S A Y L E 18:12, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Becky Sayles Really! I think it places the bar too high to expect passing editor Gonrah, noticing that the ordering of entries in a table doesn't match the figures in the table and trying to tidy it up a little, to go and check a shed load of references and fix any discrepancies by means of locating new RS. The ref for Belgrade's figure is RS, and confirmed by Serbian speaker Mr rnddude. If the figure is acceptable, the position should match the figure. If you doubt Barcelona's figure, or any others, either fix it or put a "content is disputed/unverified etc" warning on the page. If you really want an rfc to move 'G' to between 'F' and 'H', then I'll do it for you, but surely that's a hammer to crack a sesame seed! Batternut (talk) 23:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

To put the matter to rest;

Becky Sayles and Batternut
So I've taken a close look at the reference, and, here's what I can say.
First; Beograski Region or Region of Belgrade with a population of 1,655,940 is split into the groups of Gradski or Urban population of 1,344,844 and Ostali or everyone else/remainder/other at 314,596. This is not really too important.
Second; Naselje Beograd, is referred to in the census as the settlement of Belgrade. A distinctly odd choice, it's sort of like saying the settlement of Brisbane or settlement of Paris, like, these places aren't settlements, they're towns (or cities) but I think I've found the reason for it.
Note; Naselje would correctly translate to settlement, I used town because, why would it refer to Belgrade as a settlement? Well read on and you'll find out.
Third; Right beneath Beogradski Region there's another entry, Beogradska Oblast, Grad Beograd or City of Belgrade and it has the same population as the first Beogradski Region. Now you would think that the City of Belgrade refers to the City of Belgrade, but, no it doesn't. This is because, the City of Belgrade is it's own administrative division and doesn't fall or break down into any districts. So, what has happened is that the administrative division is separated from the actual city. In essence, the City of Belgrade (administrative) is not the City of Belgrade (city). So what is? The Naselje of Belgrade, the Naselje as a settlement refers to the City proper.
Right, so let me tackle the many Belgrades problem, to make it short here, I can breakdown each of the individual values into the correct corresponding thing (I guess).
1. Beogradski Region, refers to all of the population in the district of City of Belgrade, 1.6 million.
2. Beogradski Region (Urban), refers to the entire urban population of the district of City of Belgrade also 1.6 million.
3. Naselje Beograd, refers to all of the population in the town or city proper of Belgrade, 1,166,763.
Which is the correct value for this article, the third one. The administrative division has 1.6 million people living there, but, the actual city-proper has only 1,166,763 people living there.
The last bit of business, WP:OR, I also went ahead to try and find a citation for all of the above work (part of which is my own, part of it is Wikipedia, and only the values are RS). Page 12 of the census is written in both Serbian and English. Thank god, cause while I can read cyrillic, I translate it into latin letters in my head to do so. In other words, it's like reading a cipher.

Here's a select quote from the bottom of page 12; "Settlement Belgrade represents a part of the City of Belgrade and it includes the whole territory of six urban municipalities (Vračar, Stari Grad, Savski Venac, Zvezdara, Rakovica and Novi Beograd) and parts of the territories of four more urban municipalities (Voždovac, Zemun, Palilula and Čukarica)."

Note that the City of Belgrade is the administrative division.
now refer to Page 15 which gives you an exact image of what constitutes the settlement of Belgrade in the upper right hand corner. The shaded area is the city proper, while everything else, is the outer farmlands or plainlands that belong to the city but are not part of the city-proper. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:51, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I took a look at for example Barcelona; I found this unambiguous, provisional, population of Barcelona for 2011 for both sexes and at all ages[1]. Around 1,611,013, which I hope helps. Note, you'll have to scroll down a bit to find Barcelona, ignore the 5.5million figure for Barcelona at the top, that's for the entire municipality. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:21, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

It appears that the requested edit is under discussion, and autoconfirmed editors who would be able to respond appropriately to carrying out the edit if sources back it up. Don't think this needs to stay open for more visibility. — Andy W. (talk ·ctb) 05:07, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

For the Russian cities of the article, updated statistics and references[edit]

Batternut, hopefully these statistics and sources will satisfy the need of the article. I will note quickly that I couldn't find Perm or Niznhy Novgorod and that Volgograd is last year's statistic. Hopefully these will help. They're all in Russian cyrillic, but, if you ctrl-f the value I provide (without commas) and then just translate whatever is written in that section, you ought to find that these figures are indeed correct.

What I found;
I have found Saint Petersburg 5,225,690 for 2016 [ [2]]
I have found Volgograd 1,017,451 for 2015 [3] Refer below
I have found Voronezh 1,032,382 for 2016 [4]
I have found Ufa 1,121,429 for 2016 [5]
I found Rostov na Don for 2015 1,117,341 but not the reported 2016 one [6] Refer Below.
I found Samara, 1,170,910 as currently reported, its in an excel file (31.03.2016), here as close as I can get you to it [7]
I have found Kazan 1,216,965 [8]
I have found Moscow, 12,330,126 as currently reported, its also in an excel file (06.04.2015), here is again as close as I can get you to it [9]
I can confirm Perm, 1,041,867 refer to the fourth link (excel) here; [10]
I can confirm Volgograd, 1,016,137 for 2016, you'll need to translate the whole page. [11]
I can confirm Rostov-na-Don, 1,119,875 for 2016, you'll need to translate the whole page. [12]
What I have not found;
I also couldn't find the statistic for Nizhny Novgorod, although it hasn't been included anyway.

Here you go, Mr rnddude (talk) 13:04, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Nizhny Novgorod is not yet uploaded, which is why I did not update it. Rostov-on-Don for 2016 is here [13] at the bottom of the page. Perm is the fourth link here [14], also the only Excel link there. Volgograd 2016 is here [15], also at the bottom of the page. --Turnless (talk) 14:14, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for those, I'll take a look at them shortly and update the list. I'll let Batternut review them, and he'll update them, if not, then I can do that myself. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Splendid. Am going to start wrapping this up, and the other reverted edits. Batternut (talk)
Turnless, Mr rnddude, It is done, pending your satisfaction... Batternut (talk) 22:33, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Batternut, I appear to be satisfied, thanks for going through and fixing up the article. Turnless, thanks for helping me find the necessary sources and translating Russian. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:34, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you both for helping me with inserting and finding the sources as well! --Turnless (talk) 11:18, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Expansion to 50 cities[edit]

The current list is very random at ending at 36 cities. I think that extending it to 50 cities would make more sense. 50 is a good number for a list of cities and would be more consistent. --Turnless (talk) 14:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

If anyone agrees with the expansion, can anyone help figure out what are the next largest cities of the continent. Thanks! --Turnless (talk) 13:46, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for the particularly late response to this Turnless, I had completely forgotten about this proposal. If you want to have a community discussion on this, since nobody seems to have responded yet, I can take a look and see whether an RfC would be appropriate or if there's another venue for this discussion. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:15, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I'd prefer to go the other way, and cut it off at cities over 1 million. This removes the three last cities.
The problem with this list is the sourcing of data. Presently the article cites individual sources for each city, then combines them to form this list. This is problematic as it relies on editors having added all cities for the ranking to be accurate. The further the list is expand, the more likely that a city will be missed out, resulting in incorrect rankings. The other thing I would say, is because the date is not the same for all figures, the data is not comparable and the rankings are potentially incorrect. The only solution to this would be if there was a combined source listing all the cities.
Rob984 (talk) 10:52, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I would agree with a RfC on the issue to see what other users think. --Turnless (talk) 13:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


A recent edit by an IP has suggested that Amsterdam has been skipped in the article with a population of about 1 million, if this is correct, then Amsterdam should be on the list. If not, then nevermind. Just making an good faith note of it since the editor placed the comment on the article where it does not belong. Mr rnddude (talk) 05:22, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

It's only 800,000 according to its article. Rob984 (talk) 12:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)


An IP pointed out a glaring omission in this list. There's no mention of Athens anywhere, and at a population of apparently 3 million it should most definitely be included here. I'm making a not of it here if anybody gets to it before I do. Will strike this comment if I handle it myself. Cheers, Mr rnddude (talk) 00:02, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Municipal population is only 664,046 according to its article, so the list isn't long enough to include it. 3 million is its urban population. Rob984 (talk) 11:12, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Ahh... so it is. In that case, carry on. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:31, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

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