Talk:Leap Castle

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Death in the Chapel

As an O'Carroll, the story passed down was that one son was sent away to be a priest and when he came back to the castle and was saying his first mass, because he started without his father being present, the father shot the priest son when he arrived late and found the mass in progress. Afterwards, it is said that there was a curse put on the family; that there would be no more priests ordained in, or maybe, in that strain of, the O' Carroll family. Michael O' Carroll 23:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Oubliette

A description of the oubliette at Leap Castle and its discovery would round out the article nicely, as well as further discussion of supposed hauntings. More details here, in Danish: http://politiken.dk/rejser/nyheder/ECE1120551/de-ni-mest-skraemmende-steder-paa-jorden/ Kaecyy (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was a description, but that was removed back in 2012 in this edit as it was unsourced. I came to this article for info on the Oubliette, so would also like to see it re-introduced. I'll see if I can find a decent source for it (LOADS of hits on google). -LookingYourBest (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I can now see the problems with sourcing this. I can't find anything that doesn't seem to be rumour, or folklore. Can someone with more experience of sourcing help me out with understanding what needs to be cited for the old paragraph, if I break it down in to sentences?

While renovating the castle, workers discovered an oubliette, a dungeon where people are locked away and left to die. - There's certainly a lot of photos of the hole purported to be the oubliette. Whether it is one or not is hard to say.
There are spikes at the bottom of this shaft ... These series of spikes are now covered with a vast amount of twigs, grass and dirt, to protect anyone entering it. - I can't find any verification or photos of the spikes (would they last that long if they were metal?).
[W]hen it was being cleaned out, it took three cartloads to carry out all the human bones at the bottom. A report indicates that these workmen also found a pocket-watch dated to the 1840s amongst the bones, it is unknown who it belonged to. - Again, nothing but primary research on this.

And yet, as I said before, tons of hits on google for the story. How do you go about sourcing that? -LookingYourBest (talk) 20:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason I removed the material is because it's unsourced. Had it been less sensational I might have left it alone, but these were some pretty impressive claims. I have looked through Google books for something I would trust as a reliable source. Sources are thin on the ground and mostly treat the castle and its oubliette as spooky. Since that's the angle they take, I'd be wary of taking them at face value. Jstor didn't turn up anything for the oubliette. I don't know much about Irish oubliettes, but spikes would be almost unheard of in the UK. Moreover three cartloads is a hell of a lot. Oubliettes were not large. This does not mean it is untrue, but is unusual enough that it should be questioned.

As people will come to Wikipedia for confirmation or otherwise of this kind of story, it does need to be properly sourced. I've only done a web-based search, so am no doubt missing sources. If it is true, it would probably have been reported in an archaeological journal either at the time or after the fact. A search of the relevant journals might be fruitful. Nev1 (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Update) As I don't know a whole lot about Irish archaeology journals and where to even start, I've dropped an email to a local archaeology group. Fingers crossed for some useful feedback. Nev1 (talk) 16:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly a stretch to call this "human disposal shaft" an "Oubliette," but it is the term used to successfully goggle out this article. Oubliettes are where people are left imprisoned in a dark confined space, likely until they die of starvation, but retrieval is still possible. In this instance there is only a shaft with spikes and human bones, death the only outcome. Another thing, the bones of 150 persons, likely the bulk of which were according to various websites, from the 1500’s when Charles O’Carroll killed up to that many of his own men and Scottish mercenaries from the McMahon clan; were removed in 3 cartloads. This is a mass grave event, should be some period news articles on that but nothing at this time about where exactly the originating information came from. Moreover, there should be some ongoing interest by somebody that from the bones and other artifacts who and when these individuals were killed. There simply is no sources found at this time to give more specificity beyond the web sensationalism of "Oubliette" and "cartloads of bones." Not that REDDIT is a source of reliable information, but this comment by Oznog99 indicates some doubts that the bone/spike event even happened to begin with:

(Oznog99 of Reddit):I can only find pics from the top. It's about 3-4ft sq, and narrows after the first few feet with a ledge a person could stand on and refuse to drop, if still conscious.

Hard to say from the pics but maybe 15 ft down. It widens out at the bottom but I don't know by how much. No mention of it having an external door which might indicate another purpose. But since I can't find any 
pics or video of the bottom, there's no evidence of it NOT having another door.

There's no evidence mentioned of iron or wooden spikes. I think it's likely that if they were there, you'd find sockets drilled into the stone to accept them, and those should likely be left if the spikes were removed. But it's possible they were on their own support frame. Of course it's possible for this to be a murder oubliette even if spikes were never there.

Hmm I'm not sure. Of the "cartloads" and the 1840 pocket watch and iron spikes, there's no evidence that ever happened. But we do have an inexplicable architectural feature. Maybe it's possible it was an innovative attempt at ventilation they later decided didn't work, or some sort of error in the blueprints. Hard to say.

Maybe it was intended as a toilet or a trash dump but that would require a cleanout door on bottom for a trash dump. Now some indoor pit latrines did, IIRC, have no cleanout and they hired some lowest-of-the-low classman to dig the thing out every couple of years. I'm sure the smell would have been a thing but the smell of decaying bodies in the purported use could easily have been worse. Flies would be likely, too. Millions of them, in an era before duct tape, no door could seal those out so they couldn't flood the castle.

UPDATE I searched around a little bit more and at this time the castle's tour guides appear to be vectors of the information (the originating source seems still to be unknown):

O'Brien, Gillian.
Sunday Independent; Dublin [Dublin]. 25 Oct 2020: 10. 
I couldn't complete my book without a visit to Leap Castle in Co Offaly, which claims to be the 'world's most haunted castle'.

The castle was built by the O'Carrolls in the 15th century, and many of the tormented souls said to haunt it are mercenaries the family betrayed. After a successful battle or raid, the mercenaries were invited to a celebratory banquet where they were poisoned.

Their fate wasn't the worst.

Other unwelcome guests were thrown into a gap in the dining hall wall and fell several floors to the 'oubliette' (a dungeon) at the bottom.

The lucky ones landed on a spike; the unlucky were left to starve to death and forgotten, as the word oubliette suggests.

According to our guide, when the oubliette was emptied, hundreds of skeletons were discovered.

SteamWiki (talk) 20:15, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Connecting to this page

If I could make a favourite out of this page, l would - but, sadly, l can't as l now use a PlayStation 4.Tnarrud3 (talk) 16:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]