Talk:Liever Turks dan Paaps

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Strange[edit]

I see two sides on the geuzenpenning.

Upside "Liver Turks dan Paus" Downside "Endespit Delamis"

Seems to me that te Downside is the reason why the Dutch used it...

On the dutch wikipedia there are also people trying to change the history of this Dutch frase and give it an Islamic twist. That is so NOT true!!!

It was used out of hate against the Papish, not because of the love for the Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.178.115.102 (talk) 12:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per Honor et Gloria and "the Turks were so tolerant" bias[edit]

There is a lot of revisionism in this article, most of it seems to be synthesis originating from the user Per Honor et Gloria, who seems to be a staunch Orientalist in bias. The article is riddled with anti-Catholic and anti-Spanish cliches which border on Black Legend. The article laughably claims the Ottoman Empire was "tolerant"; tell that to the Greek Christians under Tourkokratia whose families were forced as part of a tax, to give one of their young boys to the Ottoman Army, where they would have to convert to Islam and would never be seen again. I mean just read Christian tattooing in Bosnia and Herzegovina; the Christian literally had to brand their children with crosses[1] to stop the Ottomans kidnapping them and forcing them to convert. This laughable revisionism pushed to suit a multicultural agenda is sickening. - 90.212.77.135 (talk) 04:35, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article does not claim that the Ottoman Empire was tolerant per se, it only says that it was perceived as being tolerant by the Geuzen in the Dutch Revolt. It's rather irrelevant whether the Ottoman's were really more tolerant than the pope (though I think the Geuzen were closer to the truth than you, with your anti-Ottoman POV). Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 20:07, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bulut Book[edit]

The book by Bulut is not seen as a WP:RS as a source at the Sea Beggars-page. Unless someone disputes this claim, it will be better to remove the claims that were sourced by this book, like the claim that the Sea Beggars used a Turkish flag as a banner. It sounds highly improbable to me.Jeff5102 (talk) 13:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

deleted fragment[edit]

I deleted this:

The slogan "Rather Turk than Papist" was the product of debates on tolerance in Eastern Europe and France. In these debates, the Ottoman Empire was referred to as an example of a nation in which diversity of religion had proved successful. Until then, Christian rulers had thought tolerance to undermine their authority. In the Netherlands, discussions regarding tolerance were held as the Calvinists were persecuted by king Philip II. In their call for tolerance, the Protestants expressed they preferred the tolerance of the Turk over the Pope's rule. This expression gained significance as William of Orange appealed to the Ottoman sultan for help in the subsequent war against Philip II.

Because:
1) it is unsourced;
2) I did not find reliable sources concerning the 'debates on tolerance in Eastern Europe and France' as inspiration for the slogan;
3) Considering the Beeldenstorm and the killings of the Martyrs of Gorkum, I don't imagine that those sea beggars were those pious men who were fighting for tolerance and universal freedom of religion;
4) The sentence 'Until then, Christian rulers had thought tolerance to undermine their authority' is not according to all facts: some rulers were tolerant, Others were not.
5) As William the Silent's appeal to the Ottoman sultan for help was an example of silent diplomacy, it cannot have been an inspiration for the slogan.
Please show me reliable sources to return the part, and the fragment can be restored. But I have my doubts on the correctness of it.Jeff5102 (talk) 12:16, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]