Talk:List of Starship launches

Content Copied

I don't know how to add the "content copied from articles x y and z", so I've copied content from SpaceX Starship and SpaceX Starship flight tests. I've also used List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches as a template. Redacted II (talk) 11:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

If you don't know "how", why not ask for help? You should have copied the whole page including history and talk. Now, with deleting much of the original page (and renaming it), most of the work of others gets diluted and neglected as their changes and efforts are no longer repesented in the history of this page, although their texts and contributions are now here. I see that as severe violation of WP rules. You once more disregarded the work of others. 47.64.136.116 (talk) 07:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Once more, stop with the personal attacks.

Two: You can't copy the history of an article. Maybe I could if I was an admin, but I'm not.

Three: How is splitting an article disregarding their changes? Redacted II (talk) 12:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not attacking, merely stating facts. You should learn to distinguish.

Obviously, you need to edudate yourself a little:

Help:Page_history#Moved_and_deleted_pages

WP:MM

WP:SPLIT

As you failed to split the page and to migrate the page contents including history (or if not able, ask for), but simply copied content:

Now, the history of this page does not show anymore who wrote which parts.

This violates rules:

WP:C

WP:COPYWITHIN

I think you should clean up your mess:

WP:RIA 47.64.137.61 (talk) 07:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Added template

(Thanks for providing the exact policies. It made finding the template possible) Redacted II (talk) 11:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

one more page with redundant and superfluous information

so we got one more page with redundant and superfluous information, that makes users a hard time to find relevant information scattered around on dozens of starship related wp articles that are neither sufficiently interlinked, nor clearly differentiated, nor properly maintained and updated by the community 47.64.135.127 (talk) 09:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

If it was "superfluous", it wouldn't have been raised from Draft to Article, much less to a B-Class article. Redacted II (talk) 12:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria for Future launches

We need some sort of established inclusion criteria for putting planned missions in the Future launches section. The list is currently an eyesore due to the large number of refueling missions listed. These have no source (other than that ambiguous spacenews.com one) and no useful information. This does not adhere to WP:Verifiability. Future Starlink missions could end up in this predicament as well.

Therefore, I propose:

1. Every individual launch require a reference (Flight 6, as of today, would not be included).
2. Every refueling flight require a scheduled date (these missions are so uninteresting with regards to statistics that there's no point having them listed far before launch anyway).
3. No speculative mission be included, even if it has a source claiming it will happen.

Of course these guidelines are not carved in stone and could be changed in the future if necessary. Narnianknight (talk) 22:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong agreement.

Right, I noted that directly after this unfortunate page was created.

Furthermore, all this comes from a single source where someone not related to SpaceX speculated(!) about how many refuelling flights might(!) be necessary. To include that in the tables, and making it the most striking feature of this pages is completely ridiculous.

The problem is that Redacted II likes to include speculative data, dubious sources and original resarch, and never ever apprehends the problem of doing so, as you can see above and in many other discussions regarding Starship, e.g. Talk:List_of_Starship_upper_stage_flight_tests#Dubious_statements_with_even_more_dubious_sources 47.64.136.116 (talk) 12:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, 47.64.136.116, stop with the personal attacks and baseless accusations.

The # of refueling missions is sourced (and if the # of refueling missions is an eyesore, then Starlink is going to be much worse). Given that they have a NET, if not an exact date, they should remain.

Primary sources are worse than secondary sources: as proven by this quote: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources.".

The IFT-6 sourcing issue is being worked on. As of September 10, 2024, it has one source.

There aren't any speculatory missions listed. Speculation would require it to not have a source. Redacted II (talk) 12:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Here is my rationale. I would like to hear exactly which points you disagree with and why.

1. This is a list of launches, not a list of missions ("missions" here including any launches to support one primary launch, e.g. refueling).

   A. Launches should be listed individually; missions should not group constituent launches.

   B. Launches are listed in chronological order, unsortable. When independent launches occur between constituent launches of a mission, that mission's launches indeed cannot be grouped together.

   C. If a launch is specifically purposed for a mission, that mission should be listed in the launch description.

2. Each supporting launch should have a reference to it specifically.

   A. A supporting launch should not be inferred from a primary launch announcement just because we know it must happen.

   i. If we were to include launches "because we know they must happen," we could enter dozens of unnamed Starlink launches because they have to complete the constellation sometime, right?

   ii. A source saying a mission will have refueling flights is no more an official announcement for a launch than one saying there will be a bunch of Starlink launches in the future.

   B. The thing I said about requiring a scheduled date may not be reasonable. It just depends on how they announce refueling missions.

   C. An editors' note from the source of List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches#Future launches: "Only officially announced missions should be listed, no rumors or speculation." I think you'll agree that Musk saying something does not describe being "officially announced."

3. If an entry has no meaningful information about the launch, it is perhaps an indication that there are not strong enough sources to warrant its existence.

Narnianknight (talk) 16:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

1A: Agree

1B: Agree

1C: Somewhat Agree (IMO, detailing Artemis 3 for every refueling mission, for example, is needlessly redundant)

2Ai: Agree, listing all the future Starlinks would be stupid

2Aii: Disagree We have the exact number of refueling flights, and a general time for when they occur. That is supported by sources. The same cannot be said for Starlink.

2B: Agree

2C: Strong Agree Musk is not a reliable source.

3: Define meaningful Redacted II (talk) 17:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

2Aii: Where are you getting an exact number? Every estimate has a different idea. It's misleading to put a number on it when SpaceX hasn't announced an official launch schedule.

3: The refueling entries add nothing to the article. For example, look at the data in each column for Artemis III.

• Generic mission name. We don't know the actual refueling naming scheme.
• Technically correct, to put it generously
• The ref doesn't seem to support it being Block 2
• No info
• No info
• Obvious
• No info
• No info
• Same as primary launch (and they're not really fuel customers)

This seems a lot like "being inferred from a primary launch announcement just because we know it must happen." Basically what I'm getting at is that no one is going to get any useful information about a given launch from this. You strongly agreed to entering "only officially announced missions," which refueling launches are certainly not (obvious exception for Prop Transfer Demo). Narnianknight (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

We know it must happen, we know the number of flights (Source: https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/at-least-15-starship-launches-to-execute-artemis-iii-lunar-landing/), and when. The existence of these missions have been announced.

Listing each launch individually, like on List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches, addresses the mission name issue.

The date listed is the official NET. Yes its unlikely, but its the official date.

The ref was put in the wrong spot. That has been fixed. (Also, yes, saying it is going to be version 2 is speculation. But we do know that its not Starship 1, and that Artemis 4 is going to use an upgraded HLS, so its very likely to be Starship 2).

We don't know ship or booster numbers past flights 7 and 8, respectively. No argument there.

Payload is, as you said, obvious. Mass is unknown, and may forever be unknown.

Orbit can actually be filled in as low earth orbit (Source: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2021/04/nasa-starship-first-landings-on-ramp/)

NASA is the contractor (they aren't just paying for the launch of HLS, they're paying for the launches to fuel HLS as well). Redacted II (talk) 22:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

First, as above: I am not attacking, merely stating facts. You should learn to distinguish. You were cought several times with original research. So, now stop accusing me!

Second, you have been instructed about primary and secondary sources and when to use them several times as well. As you now once more insist that secondary sources are the best and cherrypicking quotes, I have to assume you do this on purpose and to distract.

"There aren't any speculatory missions listed. Speculation would require it to not have a source." This is just laughable. If you use a speculative source, it stays speculative. Your only(!) source "spacenews.com/starship-lunar-lander-missions-to-require-nearly-20-launches-nasa-says/" says "NASA says", so why don't find he original NASA statement? Because there is none! If you read the extremely inprecice arcticle more carefully, it's not NASA but a single "official", a "assistant deputy associate administrator"(!!) is speculating.

Even worse, what about "Exactly how many launches will be required has been a point of debate (..) Neither NASA nor SpaceX have given firm numbers recently." ?

The numbers "16" (NASA) or "8" (SpaceX) are not only disputed and given as "max", these are quotes themselves from much older articles. Why not quote those originals? Too lazy or distracting again? Or because they do not support your assumtions??

Out of this, you make some 50(!!) spaceship fuel missions and state that in a table as fact. Apart from one more "original research" by you, as you interprete this lousy article to a very wide stretch: This is extremely untrue and one more violation of WP rules.

@Narnianknight, I support your efforts and general criteria, but in this case such arguments are superfluous, as all those refuelling starts are just speculation and "original reasearch" out of a single highy speculative article with a clickbait headline. Just go on and delete it. 47.64.137.61 (talk) 07:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

"Second, you have been instructed about primary and secondary sources and when to use them several times as well. As you now once more insist that secondary sources are the best and cherrypicking quotes, I have to assume you do this on purpose and to distract."

You mean when you continue to say I'm misusing them despite direct quotations that say otherwise.

"If you use a speculative source, it stays speculative"

And the source for the number of flights, https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/at-least-15-starship-launches-to-execute-artemis-iii-lunar-landing/, is not speculative. I did search, by the way, for the original NASA statement. Redacted II (talk) 11:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• "at least 15 Starships"
• "high teens"
• "quite a number of tankers" - Lakiesha Hawkins
• "in the high teens"
• "NASA and SpaceX have demurred on specifying how many launches would be required"

It is clear we do not know how many it will be. You agreed to list launches individually rather than in a mission group; that means waiting for an announcement for a specific launch. If a ref does not mention a specific launch, it is not a source for a specific launch.

(By the way, I am truly sorry you're being dog piled by someone comfortable in the bottom half of Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.) Narnianknight (talk) 12:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

In that case, I'd be okay with removing those flights, so long as it is listed under every mission that there will be a number of refueling flights in the high teens.

For the bottom half of the hierarchy of disagreement: tt's been going on for a while. Tried to get admins to resolve it. That failed. Redacted II (talk) 13:05, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I've redone the tables to a better format (ok, I pretty much copied the Falcon list format). I'll also go through and look at refs when I have time. Narnianknight (talk) 18:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Failed for good reason, as everybody can re-read: You was the one who provoked me first, then invented a lot of nonsense to distract from the main issues, and then wanted to silence me with false accusations like beeing a socketpuppet. This all failed grandiously and you were told to stick to facts and nstop your own original resarch. Now, you do that again. 47.64.136.117 (talk) 09:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

So, provoking someone means "Rejecting an edit request". And inventing nonsense is directly quoting Wikipedia policy.

And if you look at the report that I filed, I say "sock puppetry section, though that isn't the main issue". You were using multiple IPs, though not intentionally.

And where in that discussion was I given any warning about WP:OR? Redacted II (talk) 11:49, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Flight 1 and 2 were a success

The reason those flights were a success is because they successfully lifted off and got further than the time before each time. SpaceX was able to collect the data and make improvements so the next flight could go even further yet again; so all those launches were a success. To say that any of them were failures is ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.23.250.2 (talk) 10:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed oder and over, and if some people had not split the starship topics into manyfold small articles without proper interlinking and (re-)import of old discussions, you would have found it. E g see here: Talk:SpaceX_Starship

It is also discussed and explained in the artikel itself in the table. In my opinion, a start that destroys most of the pads infrastructure, cannot be seen as success :) 47.64.136.116 (talk) 12:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

There has been extensive discussion of this.

They were failures, as they didn't deliver the vehicle into the desired orbit. Redacted II (talk) 12:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, that is false. As the test flights never wanted to reach any orbit and were clearly marked as suborbital on purpose, this argument fails. 47.64.137.61 (talk) 07:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect: transatmospheric is technically orbital. Redacted II (talk) 11:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense again. Suborbital is by definition not orbital. You don't understand the difference between transatmospheric and TEO. Not everything someone gets into transatmospheric heights will get orbital. Flight tests 3+4 were on purpose not fast enought by a few percentages, to avoid space junk if something went wrong, thus 3+4 did not enter an orbit at all. Either you know that and want to distract on purpose again, or you need to re-read some facts and educate yourself.

WP:Sub-orbital spaceflight clearly explains that and lists e.g. all Blue Origin flights for exaclty that reason. All Starship flight tests so far did tecnically the same. 47.64.136.117 (talk) 09:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Your confusing several terms.

IFT-1 and IFT-2 were aiming for a Transatmospheric orbit, with a perigee above the surface of the earth, but below the Kármán line.

Suborbital is what IFT-3 and IFT-4 targeted: with a perigee below the surface of the earth. Redacted II (talk) 11:36, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Statistics Issue

The "Flight characteristics" graph may cause substantial issues in the future.

For example, here is a circumstance that is both expected to occur and will cause contradictions:

A number of tanker launches, in the high teens, send a total of 1500 tons of Methane and Oxygen to a waiting depot. A HLS is docked to the depot, and the fuel is transferred. The HLS then reignites its engines, and travels to the moon.

In this scenario, HLS qualifies for both "Earth Orbit" (this should be divided) and "Lunar".

How will we list this flight in the graph? LEO? TLI? Something else entirely? Redacted II (talk) 16:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I've always thought that particular graph is a bit dumb. Almost all of them will be earth orbit flights. I hadn't even considered the problem you mentioned. I'm in favor of removing the thing entirely. Narnianknight (talk) 22:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't exist on the Falcon 9 article, so removing it is probably a good idea. Redacted II (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Removed. Narnianknight (talk) 00:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)