Talk:List of highest scores in figure skating

Proposed split

The miscellaneous records section should really be its own page. Many skaters' pages reference the lists there and it shouldn't be buried at the bottom of an article about scores when no scores are listed. DoctorTamago (talk) 22:36, 25 December 2021 (UTC) DoctorTamago

I would agree with this, the article is getting a bit long and unwieldy right now. Another suggestion would be to maybe split up the page into men/women/pair/dance - thoughts? - Irvek (talk) 15:41, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@Felix QW: I see the following main issues with this list article:

1. The sub-sections do not have distinct headings, which messes up section links (see MOS:HEAD). The article either needs to be re-structured, split by disciplines, or the sub-sections re-named to fix this technical issue.
2. Records regarding single technical elements are not officially considered as "highest scores" by the ISU and should be moved to a separate article.
3. Some sections are not properly referenced. The links to competition protocols can stay, but they are not enough as a source. There must be a full list of scores cited somewhere to show a) the notability of the statistics and b) that no score has been left out in the table. Official ISU protocols should be the first choice, statistics from SkatingScores.com should count as a reliable second choice.
4. The table formattings do not meet all requirements regarding accessibility and style (see MOS:DTAB among others).

I can offer to create table templates that meet the latest MOS standards, to make the editing easier and sufficiently reduce the article size as well. Henni147 (talk) 15:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Henni's concerns notwithstanding, I also agree with a split. It's obvious that this wouldn't be a simple split, but I think it's worth the effort. I'm happy to assist, if Henni takes care of the table formattings. I'm happy to hunt down refs, which shouldn't be too difficult, since the info is relatively recent. I suggest that we create sandboxes so we could all play around with the multiple lists that we'd create. I could see the potential for more FLs, too. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended content

@Figureskatingfan: I have just created the template {{Figure skating highest scores}} that can be used for all types of top 10 highest scores statistics: personal or absolute best scores TES, PCS, or total segment scores current or historical best scores for senior or junior level for men's singles, women's singles, pairs, or ice dance. The big advantages of this template are: You don't have to do any table formatting, just fill out the few parameters and empty table cells. This template sorts skaters correctly by their last name (not by their first name like the current tables). For pairs and ice dance, each partner has their own column, so that you can sort by the name of the female or male partner. All tables are uniform in size for singles as well as for pairs and ice dance. You don't need to bother with the flagcountry-template anymore, just add the IOC country code. The inline citation/source can be placed directly behind the table caption. Henni147 (talk) 13:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC) @Henni147, you're so smart! Tables are truly my kryponite, so this will help. I can start things off by creating the sandboxes, probably today. I've been a little unwell this week, but today is the first day I'm starting to feel better. Will let everyone know when I'm able to do it. Best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 14:46, 10 June 2023 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: I have adapted the new template for all tables in the article where it can be used (sections 3, 4, 6, and 8). The use of this template reduced the total article size by 28 kB. What I noticed during the process: Section 9 definitely should be moved to a separate article with its full content. In my opinion, section 7 should be removed entirely. There is no source that explicitely shows the progression of TES records, and it doesn't meet Wikipedia's criterion of notability/encyclopedic relevance. I do think that we could remove a lot of empty space if we merged the tables in the sections 1 and 2. I'll try to post a draft of my idea tomorrow. To solve the issue with the defect sub-section links, my suggestion is to use the following article structure: 1 Incumbent highest scores (incl. TES and PCS) 2 Men's singles 2.1 Men's highest personal best scores 2.2 Men's highest personal best TES and PCS 2.3 Men's absolute best scores 2.4 Progression of men's highest scores 3 Women's singles 3.1 Women's highest personal best scores 3.2 Women's highest personal best TES and PCS 3.3 Women's absolute best scores 3.4 Progression of women's highest scores 4 Pairs 4.1 Pairs' highest personal best scores 4.2 Pairs' highest personal best TES and PCS 4.3 Pairs' absolute best scores 4.4 Progression of pairs' highest scores 5 Ice dance 5.1 Highest personal best scores in ice dance 5.2 Highest personal best TES and PCS in ice dance 5.3 Absolute best scores in ice dance 5.4 Progression of highest scores in ice dance 6 Notes and references etc. I think, with this structure we would have a very compact and logical list article. The headings can be adjusted of course, this is only a first draft to get the main idea. I am always open for other suggestions. Henni147 (talk) 19:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC) So @Henni147, what I hear you say is that with your cuts and/or tables merging, we may not have to split this list. I'm okay with that. I agree with you about section 7; looking at it and then doing some digging around, I think you're correct about not being able to find any references. I think that section 9 should also be removed; its content is found elsewhere, like on the individual element articles. Also, the sources used also do not explictly support the claims made; for example, this source [1] doesn't state that Boyang was the first skater to land six quadruples in competition, but just lists his elements and how they were scored. I'll go ahead and remove those two sections; if you disagree, please revert. I will also check, clean up, and standarize the references. The lead should also be sourced. Finally, I agree with your new section and sub-section titles. I'll let you make those changes, so that there are no errors in translation. I'll make all the proposed changes tomorrow while nursing my head cold. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: You have my full support regarding the latest changes. The article looks much better already! I will try to adapt the suggested article structure and format the remaining tables today. I can also ask SkatingScores.com to provide proper lists for highest PB in TES and PCS. The sources that I used have an awfully long url-address, and it's even worse for historical scores (due to the large number of seasons between 2004 and 2018). Regarding a possible nomination for FL class: my suggestion is to prepare the list of highest historical scores first, since it's not subject to updates anymore. Then we can use it as a basis for the current senior/junior and historical junior scores. I would also suggest to create a similar info/navigation box like the one that we use for the {{Yuzuru Hanyu series}}. This would unburden the lead sections and nicely group all articles about highest scores. Or even better: grouping all articles about main figure skating statistics lists in one navigation sidebar. What do you think? Wish you a nice Sunday and quick recovery from your cold! Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 09:19, 11 June 2023 (UTC) Just a quick remark: The opening claim of this split proposal was that many individual skaters' articles link to the records section (9) that has just been removed. If that is indeed the case, one should check the articles linking here and make sure that no links are stranded by now pointing to a page that doesn't actually list the record that occasioned the link in the first place. Since I am completely unacquainted with figure skating and only came here because I am working the Proposed article splits backlog, I don't have any opinion on the section myself. Felix QW (talk) 10:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC) @Felix QW: Thank you very much for pointing out the link issue. I will check the articles that linked to the removed section and try to fix dead links one by one. Note: I just noticed that there are many dead links (not only section anchors but also links to the wrong article) resulting from former page splits that still haven't been fixed either. I think, it makes most sense to update the structure of all highest score lists first and then fix the Wikilinks in one visit to avoid duplicate work. Henni147 (talk) 10:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC) @Henni147: That sounds very sensible, thank you (and Christine) for all of your efforts! Felix QW (talk) 11:14, 11 June 2023 (UTC) @Felix QW: Update I managed to create the {{Figure skating record scores}} and {{Figure skating record progression}} templates and use it for all compatible tables in the artice. Now all tables in the article should meet Wiki's MOS criteria. I also re-structured the article as suggested above, which had the nice side effect that the images are no longer pressed into one section, but evenly distributed across the full article. The list of historical records and link fixing will be tackled next. Henni147 (talk) 11:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC) I'm the process of checking all links and to ensure that they support all claims made. I will also make sure that they're all archived and add the archive template when done. For example, you'll see that I removed a link from International Figure Skating magazine, since it's now defunct and replaced it with another source (a journal article). Please be patient with me; it's slow-going because I want to make sure that it's accurate. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: Yes sure, please take all the time you need. This is not a race after all, it's the quality that matters. I am currently adapting the new table templates in the historical scores article. The section headings for ice dance were a bit tricky there because of the system change in 2010. I would be very happy if someone took a quick look and gave a feedback. Before I tackle the link fixing, the section headers should all be finalized. Henni147 (talk) 06:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC) Everyone, I have finally completed the task of checking, improving, and updating the links. I think that everything looks great. I decided not to make sure that all links were archived, since we're going to have to update the scores every 1-2 seasons and the URLs are likely to change, anyway. I did, however, make sure that all the links in the lead (refs1-5) are archived. What do you guys think about that? Do we need to archive all links? Next question: with all the cuts and table improvements we've made, do we now need to split this list? I'm thinking no, we don't have to anymore. Thanks for all your hard work and patience. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:37, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your work! I fixed one small typo, the rest looks good :)

• I fully agree with you that no further page split is needed. The current page size is totally fine for a list article, and the number of inline citations is no issue either.
• Regarding archive links: It is true that due to the regular updates the content of the archived pages will become obsolete. However, a promotion to FL class requires an archiving of all online sources to prove that these pages existed (in the case that they are no longer available for whatever reason).

My suggestion is: let's wait until I get response from SkatingScores.com regarding the long url addresses. When that issue has been resolved, we can archive everything with one click.

• Update: I just completed the adaption of the new table templates for the highest historical scores. I would be very happy about a quick feedback, especially regarding the section headings in ice dance. It was a bit tricky to find distinct yet short headings for dance scores before and after 2010. If you have better suggestions, please feel free to share them.
• During the process, I noticed that the historical score list has an interesting extra section about highest scores at Grand Slam events (currently hidden) to which many articles link, including the FL of Hanyu's career achievements. I consider to create a template for that one as well and use it on all highest score lists. It's just one additional table per discipline and no new source at all, so it doesn't do much to the total article length.

That's it for now. Wish you all a nice weekend! Henni147 (talk) 07:26, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Fantastic work from both of you! I honestly don't think you could do much better on the Ice Dance headings; the only thing is that it now seems like the year 2010 itself is not covered at all, while really the split happened after the 2009-10 season and before the 2010-11 season. Would "until the 2009-10 season" and "from the 2010-11 season" already be to clunky? Felix QW (talk) 08:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Felix QW: Thank you very much for your quick response! Yeah, I do think that "until the 2009–10 season" would make the section headings too long, but "until 2009–10" could do. I can definitely change that, thanks for the suggestion! Henni147 (talk) 08:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Definitely some good work here. Henni, you're going to have to teach me how to quick-archive links. Up to now, for other articles and bios, I've been doing them by hand, which is pretty tedious. I also put the archive URL only if the original link is broken or missing, but that's just my preference and I'm okay with including the archive URL if that's the consensus. I agree that the dance sections are good. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:52, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: There are various citation bots where you can request a full addition of missing archive dates and links. One possibility is to contact this Wiki InternetArchiveBot. I haven't tried it myself yet, but I remember that we used a similar method during the FL nomination of Hanyu's career achievements. Henni147 (talk) 08:24, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Improvement to FL class

I have experimented with a new navigation/infobox for FS statistics and added it to the list of highest historical scores. It has the purpose to visually group stats lists in figure skating, give readers a faster overview of existing articles, and unburden the prose part of the lead sections a bit. What do you think about it? By the way, the current lead sections need some revamp anyways; an introductory sentence should not start with the phrase "The following list of X contains ..." (see MOS:LEADSENTENCE). It should have more narrational or encyclopedic character (example: List of Benet Academy alumni). Info: I will start with the fixing of dead anchor links today. Henni147 (talk) 08:24, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Should you need any help with the archiving, you can always let me know. I have done this a couple of times before, so I should be able to do it again! Felix QW (talk) 08:58, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147, thanks again. @Felix QW, yah if you could help with the archiving, that would be great. I kinda would like to figure out how to use it myself, for this and other pages, but I'm having trouble with the technical side, so yes I will need your help. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:04, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

It seems as if I have now added Archive links to every single source – I hope that's ok! If I should have only archived dead sources, then please let me know and I'll change it. I checked a couple and they looked good, but let me know if any of them lead somewhere daft.

@Figureskatingfan: It's actually really easy. Just go to the user page of the InternetArchiveBot, click the leftmost ribbon at the top and then scroll down to Requesting specific articles. There is a link there, "Analyze a page", and then you can just follow the instructions there (You could also go straight to that link). Felix QW (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147, thanks for taking care of the archiving. I went ahead and added to/improved the lead. Please let me know if it's adequate and please make changes as you see fit. @Felix QW, thanks for the tip. I will use it, for sure. I think we may almost be done! When we are, I'll go ahead and submit to FAC. Best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:08, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Thank you very much for your changes in the lead section! It's much better already than the previous version. Some small comments:

• I think, we can say that the IJS has been used since 2003. The official ISU documents about the progression of highest historical scores all start with results achieved at the 2003 Nebelhorn Trophy. So results from the "testing-period" are considered as official record scores as well.

I did some cuts and rewording to reflect this.

• Lead sections should not contain any bulleted lists, so we better turn that into prose as well.

Done.

• The anchor-links must be updated, they are no longer working after the change of sub-section headings.

I went ahead and removed the anchor-links. I don't think they were needed, anyway.

• That italized note should either be moved to a separate "Notes" section or merged into the lead prose in regular font (not italized).

Agreed. I just un-italized it, combined it to the above paragraph, and changed the wording a bit. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It might be interesting to add short prose introductions to the different sections, summarizing the key content of the tables in 3–5 sentences and support them by reliable secondary sources. Currently we only have two primary sources in the reference section (ISU and Skating Scores), which is not much. Some articles from big newspapers or magazines like The New York Times or The Time would definitely add to the notability and value of the lists and make a promotion to FLC more likely. Henni147 (talk) 09:57, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Currently, I'm going through the scores tables and looking for reliable sources. It's slow going and will take me some time, but I'm okay with that because there's no hurry. After that, I'll do as Henni suggests and add some content explaining each table. I've discovered that secondary sources don't tend to report on individual segment scores, so we'll have to depend on the primary sources from ISU and Skating Scores. We may need to defend the lack of reliable secondary sources for those scores when we get to FLC.

Hi everyone, I've *finally* finished adding reliable secondary sources to this list. It only seemed like it took forever! ;) Anyway, if someone could go through it and look for formatting errors, that would be helpful. Also, could someone look for sources for the entries that I wasn't able to find? Additional set of eyes would also be helpful. If we were to take this to FLC, we should go through every ref to make sure they're correct and support the scores. I'd be willing to do that, but someone else other than me should take it to FLC because to be honest, I've become disenchanted with the FAC/FLC process. Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:18, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Question re absolute best scores

I have a question about absolute scores, though. How would we define them and what source(s) might explain them? And are absolute scores the same as world records? I ask because secondary sources tend to never use the phrase "absolute scores", although they often use "world record" to report the highest-ever scores. Is world record and absolute best the same thing? Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: The lists of absolute best scores are rankings of all scores in a discipline that have ever been rewarded in ISU-sanctioned events (in one judging system). Unlike the lists of personal best scores, one skater or team can appear multiple times in absolute bests lists. The ISU publishes these lists on their official website, so they definitely meet Wikipedia's notability requirements.

Absolute best scores can be world records, but they don't have to be. Example: In the +3/-3 GOE system, Hanyu has set the four absolute best scores in the men's short program, of which two were also world records (112.72 and 110.95). However, the 106.33 from the 2015 NHK Trophy, which is ranked 9th in the absolute best SP list, was a WR as well.

Note: I removed the links to highest junior scores from the "about"-template to keep it more compact. The highest junior scores are also linked in the new infobox on the right. And I changed –5/+5 to +5/-5, which is the order that is also used by the ISU (see here). Since we have a minus sign here, not a period, we have to use a hyphen, not an en-dash. Henni147 (talk) 19:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

@Henni147 thanks for the response and for your continued improvements. I think my solution is to use sources that report on both the scores and that they're world records. I'm not including sources that have just one of those items and sources that report that they're the skaters' personal bests or that they're so-many points above their previous scores. I'm trying to streamline the process, but it's still meticulous, slow work. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok so now I have another question about AB scores. Thus far, as I've stated above, I'm only including secondary sources that report on both the skaters' scores and if those scores are world records. If it just states that the scores, as of that date, are higher than their previous score, I'm not using it as a source, since that's personal best scores. No source states, "This is the 7th AB score," for obvious reasons. I'm wondering, then, if I should use source that state the score, regardless of what the source says about it? I'm going back and forth about that one, so I'd appreciate some input. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: There are multiple secondary sources that mention absolute best scores:

• This article from Inside Skating says "Still holding the four highest [short program] scores are Tatiana Volosozhar and Maxim Trankov" (in pairs)
• This article from NBC Sports said "Hanyu owns the three highest [total] scores of all time. Uno has Nos. 4 and 5, set at last season’s worlds and his opening, lower-level event this season."
• This article (original link) from NBC Sports said "Hanyu now owns the three highest short program scores under the 13-year-old system. The other two were set in the 2015-16 season." (Currently, there is no archive version of that article, but I try to get one if needed)

"Owns the X highest scores" is equal in meaning to "owns the X absolute best scores". So even if the term "absolute best scores" was not used explicitely in the examples above, the content of AB lists is obviously deemed notable by reliable secondary sources.

NBC Sports even noted that Uno owned the 4th and 5th absolute best total score as of October 18, 2017. This information is not covered by any of the other tables in our list, neither the personal bests nor the record progressions. You can find it in the absolute bests only.

Important note: The notability of absolute best scores should only be explained and cited in the lead. In the single sections, it is enough to sum up the most important facts for each discipline in 5–7 sentences at max. We do not have to add prose to each table or sub-section. Henni147 (talk) 09:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, @Henni147. I haven't tended to use Inside Skating because it's a user-generated site and I suspect it won't be accepted if at FLC. The first NBC source doesn't report specific scores. I just tried to archive the second NBC Sports source, but wasn't able to archive the original article, so maybe you can help with that. You answered my question, though, so I'll go back and find sources that support the scores. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:11, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Inaccuracies in pairs scoring

The highest recorded scores are not inclusive of Canadian pairs team Meagan Duhamel and Eric Radford, as well as Canadian ice dance team Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir. Based on their highest scoring skates, they should be on the board for a few different categories. Not sure if this is done to reflect current ISU skaters however in this case several of the athletes on the list would no longer be eligible. I would change it myself but honestly not sure how and a bit worried I would get it wrong! Physiohp (talk) 03:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@Physiohp: Results achieved in the old +3/-3 GOE system before 2018 have been declared historical by the ISU and are listed in a separate article. You can find Duhamel/Radford's and Virtue/Moir's contributions here: List of highest historical scores in figure skating.

Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 17:54, 11 June 2023 (UTC)