Talk:Malassay

The Term Malasay.

Magherbin

Firstly: This [2] not even Manfreds Kropp words nor does it state the officer tropps are Harrari. It's a foot note that refer people to Manfreds work on the name Malasay of the officer tropps in Haraghe and it's use in Ethiopian and Arabic chronicles. And those who wan't know what his view point on the meaning of the name i included in correct translation for it[3]

Secondly : The leed is for mainstream consensus view point only, as i explained previously on a different talk page Wikipedia:How_to_create_and_manage_a_good_lead_section#NPOV,_neutrality,_and_false_balance, There is no conensus view on the term's meaning so the different interpretations of it are discussed in the body. Anything else has no place on the leed.

And also don't try to misrepresent and mistranslate texts to fit your own POV like you did with Didier and Manfred. And include sources that don't make any mentions of Malasay.

Ragnimo (talk) 21:12, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Why dont you stop removing texts you dont like? Its reliable. Ferry makes no connection that malassay was Somali, atleast use a source that does instead of misinterpreting it. Why do people need to know they were mentioned next to the Somali or Harla (which you conveniently left out) in an etymology section? Magherbin (talk) 21:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I haven't removed texts i don't like. I Removed these two sources, because they don't mention malasay nor speaking of any connections to them.[4] and i kept the Didier and Manfreed sources but corrected their translations in line with what they actually say.

The last you source you added [5] is a review of Somebody elses work " Ethiopia and the Red Sea: The Rise and Decline of the Solomonic Dynasty and Muslim-European Rivalry in the Region by M. Abir" and not a scholarly publication. And also on top of everything the reviewer never mentions Malasay being Harla or Harari and Harari isn't even mentioned in the text. So what you added on the page would have been WP:OR anyways.

"Analogues" means comparable to Somalis , in the sense that they represented a tribe of their own. Not that they were Somali. That was Ferry's own opinion and this me parphrasing whats written by by Amélie Chekroun on page 180-181 on The "Futuh al-Habasa" : the writing of history, war and society in the "Bar Sa'ad ad-din" (Ethiopia, 16th century). The last of what you asked, its relevant to how the term was used in Futah.

Ragnimo (talk) 22:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I dont agree with the new changes hence they need to be discussed one by one. First you need to give valid reasons for removing sources and there needs to be a consensus here prior to any changes being made. Dont edit the article until the dispute is over thats how WP:BRD works, before editing the article, changes being made must be shown on the talk page and agreed to by all editors involved in the discussion, you need to come up with a proposal. You've stretched the etymology to mean identity which are not the same. Lets start with the introduction and infobox, what are you proposing they should say? Again post it here dont edit the article.

Manfred titles his piece Harare corps not Hararghe corp, this is obvious it was even used by the Harari in the emirate of Harar as stated by Manfred Kropp. The text was included by you to insinuate that Malassay were Somali instead of including Harla which was also mentioned, you omitted it to push Somali POV. Are you going to further push your POV as you've done on multiple pages, that Harla were Somalis? Thats what it looks like when you omit Harla in the text. Mohammed Hassan reviewed Abir's work, he is a known historian in this field, you claiming its unreliable shows you're discarding opposing arguments. Mohammed states the sedentary people were the Harla and Adare. In the next sentence he explains malasay were mainly these sedentary people. Harari is mentioned btw in the text as Adare, its pejorative term for them in Ethiopia, see Harari people page it explains this. If you still have doubts refer to p.33 of his thesis [6] Magherbin (talk)

I have discussed each edit one by one above your reply to me. You don't like it because it doesn't fit your Afar or Harari nationalist POV. and what you are trying to do is add original research. Minstranslate texts and then add content that is not even mentioned in the sources you refrenced for it. Do you honestly believe i am not going to check the sources you add?

Like i explained before this right there [7] not even Manfreds Kropp words nor does it state the officer tropps are Harrari. It's a foot note that refer people to Manfreds work on the name Malasay an officer tropps in Hararghe and it's use in Ethiopian and Arabic chronicles.

It's not about Mohamed Hassan's review. First of all in what you sourced there is no mention of Malasay being Harari or Harla. [8]. All you have in the text is a mention of Malasay being sedentary and , so what you added is OR because it's unclear.

The text i included do not insinuate anything. ""Analogues to" means comparable to. They are not talking about them being Somali but a tribe/ population of their own like Somalis are, the rest i put down is from the literature. There is no Somali POV. You are also trying to add a definite of Malasay meaning Harari when there is zero consensus about its meaning, only different interpretations exist but then you are accussing me of Somali POV. The leed is only for mainstream views.

If i was going to push a Somali POV i would have added it to the leed and said in the Etymology section, . Secondly the malasay was a heterogenous group of people from different populations, they didn't refer to a clan or a tribe, or a specific population. They could be Harla or Somali, who were majority of the army or another. They were inviduals given the title after displaying military capabilities. If you read Manfreds actual work he even says this [9] , which you tried mistranslate and leave that out and the work of Amélie Chekroun

It actually explains this and i have included her translations of her work and her using Arab Faqih to show the proper definition of it.

Anyways please discuss the changes here before you revert or add anything.

Ragnimo (talk) 11:30, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

It's not my problem that Malassay has no meaning in Somali and that this term is not known outside of Harar. Take it up with the academics, I didnt research and publish these. Harari corps included diverse ethnic groups however it was Harari usage for soldier, thats why Manfred explains that its a harari corps not adal or Somali. I am not adding a definite meaning, it was what manfred claims, this is the title of Manfreds study; "MÄLÄSAY: SELF-DESIGNATION OF A HARARIN OFFICER'S CORPS AND ITS USE IN ETHIOPIAN AND ARABIC CHRONICLES". I dont know why you're mentioning "Hararghe" here, this term is not even used in Harar until the Ethiopians annexed the territory. Ethiopian historian has said these were semitic speakers as well, which you removed. Manfred says on p.111 that Malassay were soldiers of the emirate and I cited that in the article, we can also find references that state Hararis created an Islamic caliphate in the middle ages [10], this isnt surprising at all. Anyways you've inserted too much POV and I dont agree with these changes. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, not your personal website hence stop edit warring and draft a proposal for your changes. I created this page hence it is you who should gain consensus before editing in a dispute. Magherbin (talk) 22:03, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Thats all besides the point, the term is still perseverd in Somali as Malakh or Malakay. But Didiers view "The term is preserved in Harari (Malsay) and Afar (Malsay) and designates "the warriors", "the brave"." is all added to the etymology section under it's correct tranlation. I didn't remove it. and Didier also says "The Malasai form a heterogeneous militia with a religious base." which shouldn't be left out it either.

Manfreds title Harare or Harrarin talks about the officer corps of Harar platue and the designation they were given and its usage in ethiopian and Arabic chronicles. It doesn't talk about Harari the ethnic group. That's not even mentioned in the text in the whole 9 pages. Because how would that make sense? when he says this The second one, however, is very interesting: Temur or Tumur is the old name of the Somali in Harari, which also appears in an Old Amharic song on Emperor Yeshaq (14th century) next to the Somali, they are therefore a separate but related one group. To which Manfred Kropp argues that the Malasay military group was composed of unfasted members of various peoples, including Somali.

But when it comes to the terms meaning and application. Just like its written in the first sentence which is from Amelie "Often considered synonymous with "Muslim" in Ethiopian texts, the term malasāy has been the subject of several interpretations" but the most recent view by her is simply a title given to an invidual who demonstrated military capibilities, which could be Somali, Harla, or other ethnic invididuals. You understand? I encourage you to read Amélie Chekroun work from page 181 to 189. She reviews the literrature around it and gives it a pretty accurate and logical explanation. It's really educational.

Nothing on the page is my words. Its from her and other scholars about the terms meaning. You can verify this 1 by 1. The page right now looks fine, its actually encyclopedic. It shouldn't add an ethnicity in the lead, Somali , Harrari, Afar or otherwise because that would be undue weight. It also wouldn't be true to it's actual meaning.

Ragnimo (talk) 22:06, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Its amusing how all of a sudden you dont want ethnicity in the lead, wasnt that your signature move in other articles? Now you have not addressed why you removed Ethiopian academic clearly stating they were semitic speakers. You have not addressed why you're removing Mohammed Hassans claims. Dont mix up identity and etymology in the article to push a point that Somalis are Malassay, again you've inserted the term Somali in the first section while you left out Harla which is also mentioned in the reference. Indians participated in British armies as well, it doesnt mean the army was created by Indians. Major issues are the etymology and identity topics needs to be separated not merged which you've done under the etymology section. Right now I believe its POV, BRD process states its you who must gain consensus as I was on this page before you arrived. Magherbin (talk) 22:23, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

In other articles it was about mainstream view. There is no conensus or mainstream view here, or enough reliable sources to justify adding anything ethnicity on the lead. Where did i leave out harla being mentioned? There is nothing in the article that says only Somali was malasay. Or Malasay meant Somali.

If it means anything, add that what Mohhammed Hassans says in the etymology section but qoute what he actually says , don't add your own spin on it. For example he says "The Malasay were, the crack force, which Imam Ahmed created in the process of his rise to power, was mainly comprimised of sedentary people. The Malasay were well disciplined, well tratined, and above all were mounted and well armed with sabers from arabia, shields from India, and swords from Nort Africa"

That's literally the only thing he says about them in the 6 pages of text.

About the other ethiopian academic can you qoute for me what he says in the text? You can add that to if it checks out. Add them under the line of Didier along with the different interpretations.

Ragnimo (talk) 23:01, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Dont misinterpret what he states and ignore his phd thesis which I posted on the talk page "It was divided into three main groups. The first was the Malasay. This was the personal bodyguard of the Imam,commanded by him alone. The entire Malasay was composed of sedentarypeople, including the Harla and the Adare (Harari). A necessity of a commonlanguage, or closely related and mutually intelligible languages, foreffective communications seems to have determined the ethnic compositionof this crack force." [11]. The claim you made that Manfred doesnt mean Harari in which he titled his piece "Mäläsay: Self-designation of a Hararian officer corps" is also wrong, he states on p.7 "I owe this information to Mr. Abdur-Rahman Garad, a Hararian PhD students with Professor Ewald Wagner in Giessen; they were given to me by Mr.Professor Wagner communicated in a letter dated September 21, 1986. I speak to both of them my Thank you for your kind help. Mäläsay was therefore an officer rank below that Emirate in Harar The entire army commanded the Gärad, the several mäläsay had under him." Hence the Malasay were diverse but it was a term for Harari armed forces. It was you who brought up this Manfred source in the Ahmed al Ghazi page hence I looked it up. Magherbin (talk) 06:50, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

How did i misintrepret what he said? , i literally qouted him in full text word for word. Thats all he had to say about the Malasay he didn't add anything else. The rest of what you said he didn't even state, that's your own words and deliberations.

Lets forget the tite for a second because that uninmportant and it's going around in circles. Harar was a city with many different inhabitants. Where in the 9 pages of text does Manfred even state anything about the ethnic group Harari are MAlasay.Qoute it for me.

On page 7 he wrote "To round off the discussion about the malasay, the understanding and historical memory that has been preserved to this day in Harar, the city of Gran, should be given here. I owe this information to Hern Abdur-Rahman Garad, a Hararin doctoral candidate under Professor Ewald Wagner Giessen; they were given to me by Professor Ewald Wagner in Giessen; they were communicated to me by Professor Wagner in a letter dated September 21, 1986. I would like to express my sincere thanks to both of them for their kind help. Malasay was therefore an officer rank under the emirate in Harar (cf. Leslau 1963: 107). The entire army commanded the Garad, who had several malasay under him. These Malasay were a social group, but not a tribe or clan"

How come you don't translate it in full what he says? , because he basically echoes that they were not a ethnic group/ or clan. But a social group.

You just don't want to listen or accept this because it doesn't fit your Harari nationalist POV. Thats why you want to give this undue weight where its basically not even mentioned as such.

After reviewing the literature on page 4-5 : "The second one, however, is very interesting: Temur or Tumur is the old name of the Somali in Harari, which also appears in an Old Amharic song on Emperor Yeshaq (14th century) next to the Somali, they are therefore a separate but related one group. ..... the Malasay military group was composed of unfasted members of various peoples, including Somali"

Malasay was simply a title given to various individuals that could come from various Ethnic backgrounds. Either Harla or Somali. Thats what Amelie shows, that's what Didier said, and thats also what Manfred says as well.

Ragnimo (talk) 16:53, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're aware but the Hararis are multi ethnic and I pointed out the phd student to prove the point that he is talking about Harari people not Hararghe province. The emirate of Harar clearly existed before and after Adal, it was solely ruled by Hararis, see for ex; Daud's dynasty Emirate of Harar. Oromo, Somalis etc did not control the emirate, they paid tribute to the Harar emirs until its invasion by Ethiopia. Manfred makes it clear that Malassay is tied with the emirate of harar more than it is tied with the Adal Sultanate period which was very brief. Ethnic groups are not all Somalis I went through this with you, there isnt an ethnic group you havnt questioned as of yet excluding Somali ethnic group. I dont mind if its removed from the introduction but not from the article. I will draft a proposal in a new section. Three sections are warranted based on the information added; etymology, identity and history. Magherbin (talk) 21:02, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're aware but the Hararis are multi ethnic and I pointed out the phd student to prove the point that he is talking about Harari people not Hararghe province. 

How does that make sense? Modern day Harari is a denote for are an ethnic group , that speak a language. Their origins might be diverse and multi ethnic, as they are a recently formed composite group within the walls of Harar. There is no mention of Hararis until modern time, not even in Futah.

There is a differance between Citizens of Harrar or People of Harar and the Harari ethnicity. They are not one in the same. Somalis and Harla and probably other Muslims lived in that city. As far as modern time like you said Oromo groups and Somalis lived there.

The emirate of Harar clearly existed before and after Adal, it was solely ruled by Hararis, see for ex; Daud's dynasty Emirate of Harar.

It literally on the same page you linked it says: The Emirate of Harar was a Muslim Kingdom founded in 1647 when the Harari people refused to accept Imām ʿUmardīn Ādan as their ruler and broke away from the Imamate of Aussa to form their own state under `Ali ibn Da`ud.

How it could it be founded before Adal when it was founded in 17th century?

Manfred makes it clear that Malassay is tied with the emirate of harar more than it is tied with the Adal Sultanate period which was very brief. Ethnic groups are not all Somalis I went through this with you, there isnt an ethnic group you havnt questioned as of yet excluding Somali ethnic group.

Malassay in futah are tied to Harar because it was the capital of Adal sultanate during the reign of Abu Bakr and later half of Ahmed Gurey. As i said above Harar has been inhabited by different people and there is difference between the citizenz of Harar. People of Harari and the modern day Harari ethnic group.

Who said the ethnic groups are all Somali. It's not even implied that anywhere on the page. You just dislike any mentions of Somali people and would like to reduce that and transplant it with your own fringe theories about Hararis. What is said as Manfred puts it "These Malasay were a social group, but not a tribe or clan" and they are therefore a separate but related one group. ..... the Malasay military group was composed of unfasted members of various peoples, including Somali" and Amelia says the same as well.

I dont mind if its removed from the introduction but not from the article. I will draft a proposal in a new section. Three sections are warranted based on the information added; etymology, identity and history.

That would be good we can divide it into Etymology , Identity and History. History will be just events that include the Malasay. The etymology can be about the meaning and usage, definition but it kinda goes together with identity.

Ragnimo (talk) 13:54, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

The 17th century emirate of harar which has a wikipedia article is the daud dynasty, there were emirs of harar prior to this and simutaneously with the Adal Sultans. Can you draft the part you want included in the etymology section regarding Amélie? I'm going to create a new section titled history draft below. Magherbin (talk) 20:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Well there is no Emirate of Harar prior to 17th century, unless you are talking about Sultanate ofHarar which was founded in the 16th century to suceed Adal and fell in year 1577.

The etymology draft you wrote below is alright. We can include Amelie part in the Identity section along with manfred etc in their correct translations. Ragnimo (talk) 05:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Introduction draft

Malassay
Active	13th–16th century
Allegiance	Adal Sultanate
Type	Infantry
Role	Standing professional military
Garrisons	Harar
Engagements	Battle of Shimbra Kure
Commanders
Commander	Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi

A Malassay was a member of the elite infantry units that formed the Adal Sultanate's household troops. They were sustained and maintained by the labour and produce of Adal's Muslim peasants. Described by Shihab Ad-Din as the heroic men given to incursions and Jihad. The "brave among brave".

Do you agree with the above? Magherbin (talk) 20:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah this is fine.

Ragnimo (talk) 14:19, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Actually Harari armed forces should remain in the lead as most sources indicate thats who the Malassay were. Even Merid Wolde Aregay explains that the Somalis fled mid battle and the Harari cavalry (Malassay) intervened hence there is a distinction. It still doesnt mean there were no Somalis within the Malassay however this is a Harari unit/battalion. see p.109 including footnote [12]. Magherbin (talk) 05:21, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Etymology draft

According to Didier Morin the term is preserved in Harari (Malsay) and Afar (Malsay) and designates "the warriors", "the brave".

René Basset offers an etymological explanation to malasāy (الملساي in Arabic and መለሳይ in Amharic), from the Amharic root mallasa ("Converted") and the verb tigriña melesé ("to return").

The above are the only lines that should go into an etymology section, the rest of what you included deserves a separate identity section, do you agree with this? Magherbin (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Thats all good. I agree with that. But include Amelies disagreement with it underneath.

.Ragnimo (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Identity draft

Often considered synonymous with "Muslim" in Ethiopian texts, the term malasāy has been the subject of several interpretations. Early Ge'ez and Portuguese texts indicate Muslim soldiers were known as the Malassay.

In 1901, Francesco Beguinot thought that they were Christian combatants in the ranks of the Muslim army. Sixty years later, Robert Ferry considered them one of the "tribes" of the armies of imām, quite similar to the Somalis. He noted that it is "difficult to match [them] to current ethnic groups. In 1971, Jean Doresse described them for his part as Muslim troops loyal to the Christian kingdom during the second half of the 16th century. According to Didier Morin in the futuh al-Habasa, the Malasai form a heterogeneous militia with a religious base. According to Basset, this term would designate converts to Islam. From the pen of ‘Arab Faqīh, this explanation seems unlikely. Certainly, at the end of a list of horsemen qualified as malasāy, ‘Arab Faqīh notes:

كل ھو S ء ممن دخل في دين ا c س t م وحسن اس t مھم وجاھدوا في الله حق جھاده

.

All these men had entered into the faith of Islam and increased their belief and were doing ğihād in the way of Allah in a sincere manner.

Subsequently, no mention is made of their converted status. On the contrary, they appear to be the most faithful Muslims and the most reliable. Moreover, the etymological explanation of René Basset seems little plausible. On the one hand, the knowledge of ‘Arab Faqīh in Amharic and even more in Tigriña are relatively low, and on the other hand it would be surprising if he used a term Amharic to refer to Muslims, "famous horsemen" of the army of the imām.

Only Manfred Kropp in 1990 considered the question as a whole, depending on the rare texts which make use of this term. Based on the chronicles of Sarsa Dengel it mentions troops that deserted from the rebel camp, including warriors of the malasay called ermag and temur; they are armored riders and shield carriers. The first name, perhaps created and amharicized (remag = step), is not clear. The second one, however, is very interesting: Temur or Tumur is the old name of the Somali in Harari, which also appears in an Old Amharic song on Emperor Yeshaq (14th century) next to the Somali, they are therefore a separate but related one group. To which Manfred Kropp argues that the Malasay military group was composed of unfasted members of various peoples, including Somali.

According to Mohammed Hassan the Malassay under Ahmed al ghazi contained sedentary groups such as Harla and Harari ethnic groups. Ethiopian historian Merid Wolde Aregay associated the Malassay with Semitic speakers. According to Manfred Kropp, Malassay were the Harari armed forces. A Malassay by the name of Asmaddin from wej province had been identified with Malassay during ethiopian emperor sarsa dengel's rule. Ethiopian historian Tadesse tamrat claimed the people of Wag were originally Gafat regiments of the Malassay who had assisted the rebel yekuno amalak .

Antoine d’Abbadie and Philipp Paulitschke believe that the term malasāy designates a "tribe" , just like the Somali or the Ḥarla. However, Reading the Futūḥ al-Ḥabaša, the Malasāy appear as the basic unit of the army of the imām. Unlike the other groups that make up this army, the Malasāy were a group social and not a tribe or a clan. Unlike the Balaw, Somali or Ḥarla, a man Malasāy is not born. He obtained this title after demonstrating his military capabilities. ‘Arab Faqīh gives a relatively precise definition of what he means by "malasāy:

Ultimately, in Muslim and Christian sources, the term malasāy does not refer to a particular population of Adal Sultanate. On the one hand, it designates an elite warrior from the different tributary populations of the sultanate, on the other the Muslims in a generic sense, sometimes enemies, sometimes allies of Christian power. The Malasāy do can therefore not be defined as the Ḥarla or the Somali who designate them, clearly, populations in their own right.

The identity draft above is what I came up with, is there any objections to this? In the updated version the link to Harari peoples page was removed that states armed forces hence reader can interpret it however they like. Manfred mentions Harari thats a fact but since you're refusing to acknowledge that it means Harari I have removed the redirect. I've also removed Harla in Robert ferry's statement as it doesnt appear to be in the same paragraph as Malasay and Somali comparison but its on the same page. Magherbin (talk) 23:16, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Everything except this section:

"According to Mohammed Hassan the Malassay under Ahmed al ghazi contained sedentary groups such as Harla and Harari ethnic groups.[16][17] Ethiopian historian Merid Wolde Aregay associated the Malassay with Semitic speakers.[18] According to Manfred Kropp, Malassay were the Harari armed forces.[19] A Malassay by the name of Asmaddin from wej province had been identified with Malassay during ethiopian emperor sarsa dengel's rule"

Again, none of this is mentioned in the sources you presented for it.

Ragnimo (talk) 19:29, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

That would make the statement unbalanced hence your version cant be accepted, you can ask for neutral editors, the citations clearly mention this. Magherbin (talk) 20:42, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

All the significant point of views are included above. Anything else is just you own original research trying to add in the middle of it.

Qoute for me where the citations clearly mentions any of that? Ragnimo (talk) 05:48, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Quote what part exactly? Do you even know what Original research is? Magherbin (talk) 20:11, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Manfred never said they were Harari i qouted and gone over his words in the section above [[13]] and Mohammed Hassans said they were mainly comprimised of sedentary people.

"A Malassay by the name of Asmaddin from wej province had been identified with Malassay during ethiopian emperor sarsa dengel's rule" Where is this said?

And qoute for me where Merid Wolde Aregay said Malassay was semetic speakers. Ragnimo (talk) 13:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I guess you missed Manfred's title of his article which I repeated above and you claimed Hararghe was mentioned when thats false. Manfred concludes on p.7 "I speak to both of them my Thank you for your kind help. Mäläsay was therefore an officer rank below that Emirate in Harar (cf. Leslau 1963: 107)". Read the title and read the reference I quoted from another source "Kropp, Manfred Malasay: name of a Harare officer-corps and its use in Ethiopian and Arabic chronicles". Mohammed Hassan p.33 "The entire Malasay was composed of sedentarypeople, including the Harla and the Adare." Adare is a term used for Harari [14]. I listed the wrong page for reference 15, its not on p.108 but p.109 near the end in German "Lediglich in der Chronik des Susneyos ist noch einmal von Asmä'addin aus Wägg die Rede, ohne daß der Text ihn als mäläsay bezeich- nete". Since you're refusing to read Merid's text for yourself i'll quote it here: p.135 "They were chosen from among the malassay of the sedentary, Semitic speaking Muslims and were armed with sabres from Arabia." or p.196 "Besides the very fami1ir name of the malassay, the chronicler of Sarsa Dengel mentions the Ermaj and Seniur. The malassay were young warriors from the highland emirates, while the Semur were Somali or people closely related to them." or p.343 "Many of the malassay warriors of Harar city and the other towns had remained in Ethiopia".

In conclusion Emirate of Harar and Adal Sultanate were not solely Somali despite your personal belief. I'm not sure why you believe fringe theories here about semites not being connected with these states as they clearly have Arab semitic origin, and the Ethiopian historians largely believe horn semites are the nucleus of the state as Tadesse has said. Magherbin (talk) 18:52, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

On page 7 Manfred actually says:

"To round off the discussion about the malasay, the understanding and historical memory that has been preserved to this day in Harar, the city of Gran, should be given here. I owe this information to Hern Abdur-Rahman Garad, a Hararin doctoral candidate under Professor Ewald Wagner Giessen; they were given to me by Professor Ewald Wagner in Giessen; they were communicated to me by Professor Wagner in a letter dated September 21, 1986. I would like to express my sincere thanks to both of them for their kind help. Malasay was therefore an officer rank under the emirate in Harar (cf. Leslau 1963: 107). The entire army commanded the Garad, who had several malasay under him. These Malasay were a social group, but not a tribe or clan"

On page 4-5 Manfred writes after reviewing the literrature

"The second one, however, is very interesting: Temur or Tumur is the old name of the Somali in Harari, which also appears in an Old Amharic song on Emperor Yeshaq (14th century) next to the Somali, they are therefore a separate but related one group. ..... the Malasay military group was composed of unfasted members of various peoples, including Somali"

On page 109 it says:

Ali Gärad, the mäläsay negotiating with the Turks, to whom he and his troops from Särsä-Dengel's army want to go over, because he prefers the religion of Islam (tän-bälat). When his betrayal is discovered, he is executed. The mäläsay are thus disappearing from Ethiopian historiography. Only in the Chronicle of Susneyos is Asmä'addin from Wägg speaks again, without the text designating him as mäläsay-nete (cf. Pereira 1892: 584 nota to cap. 89, 18 = texto 134; versão 243, 15).

Not even remotely what you wrote down from it.

Mohamed Hassan actually says this:

"The Malasay were, the crack force, which Imam Ahmed created in the process of his rise to power, was mainly comprimised of sedentary people. The Malasay were well disciplined, well tratined, and above all were mounted and well armed with sabers from arabia, shields from India, and swords from Nort Africa"

It's not that i was refusing to read. Scribd cuts the reading access "Your Reading a preview" is all i get, thats why i asked you to qoute it. Merids view is just a minority opinion, no other scholar said they were semetic speakers or even bothered to speculate on that.

My belief was not Adal was solely Somali but predominately Somali, who comprimised the majority of the historical population, leadership, army, sultans etc. This not just a belief but something that is shown by ethnographical, genealogical and archeological evidence, Even harla for example were Somali as recent archeaological evidence shows [15] and in adition historical documents prove how they were Darood. Anything else is just basless assertions being made that are hardly proveable.

Part of the confusion comes from the fact that after the upheavel in the 16th century it profoundly changed the policitical,social,ecomic and ethnic configurations of the region. Oromo expansions, wars, epidemics etc. Many Somalis became assimilated by Oromo qotto in Harar region and Ogaden.

Hararis are an Ethio-semetic group related to the Gurage that moved into Harar and then formed post 16th century within the confines of the wall, , they are heavily influenced by Somalis in their version of Islamic traditions. Somalis still live in Harar as they always have since its founding and Somali is spoken in it. Anyone in Harar is called Adare, including the Somalis that live there.

You can even see from here in the study, the term Garaad/Garaada is a loan word borrowed into their language from Somali cushitic languages [16] . Along with "Ay", and "Aw". Which are terms for Mother and Father in the May dialect in Somali and Saint/Fore-Mother/Father in Af-Maxaa.

Adare for example the indigenous name for Harar is a Somali word: :

Harari ( its indigenous name is Adare , a Somali word)

Harar/Harari is the recently semeticized name. Several Somali names for cities and towns in Ethiopia have actually been semeticized or Amharanized like AW Barre → Teferi Ber, Hara-Maayo → Alamaaya, Harar → Hararge, Qabribayax → Gebre-bayah, Gursum iwm etc.

But thats not the problem you have, you have an Amhara ethiopian nationalist agenda against and hatred for Somalis. It is evident by how you leave out or downplay any mentions of Somalis. Nitpick sources that best align with your POV. You even left out even Manfred mentioning them in the sentences you mistranslate. On another page you did the same thing. Ragnimo (talk) 21:29, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I cant keep explaining this to you, the state was controlled by Hararis, they employed various ethnic groups in their militia. Malasay may have been diverse but it was a Harari corps as stated by Manfred and the supporting reference I added in. Wägg indicates Wej province which is near lake zway as Manfred explains and thats where Asmadin (a malassay) is from according to the text see p.108 in German : "2. Zahl Übersetzung); 16|19f.; Asmä' addfn, der Mäläsay aus dem Lande Wäg (Grenzprovinz Äthiopiens am Ζway-See) leistet mit 800 Rittern dem König Waf- fenhilfe gegen den Rebellen Hamalmäl. Zwischen ihm und dem christlichen Azzäz Taklo be- stehen Familienbande (vg". Merid's text is free for download all you need to do is create an account on here [17]. Dont ask for quotes and then dismiss them, this is why I suspected you removed texts by falsely labeling them original research. I have not claimed this state was Amhara anywhere on here hence your baseless accussation is unwarranted. Amhara are largely part of the christian state that were distinct from the Adal Muslims. Now you're quoting Mohammed Hassan's other text to avoid the one I quoted. Read Mohmmed Hassan's entire thesis, he even labels the Harla semitic. I'm going to ignore the rest of your rant as i'm aware you believe alll ethnic groups are of Somali origin already. I dont hate Somalis just because I dont believe your crackpot theories that African Muslims originate from Somalis. Ethnic Somalis claim lineage from Arab Semities, the version you attempt to push is inline with what Somali Bantus point of view is. Magherbin (talk) 22:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Status quo ante

Earlier at WP:AN3 I said that there isn't a clear status quo ante because of how new the article is. Having reflected on it a little more, I think that the most policy-consistent solution in the meantime is to use the current version preferred by Magherbin, since it technically was there first, and add an {{Accuracy}} template. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:50, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

I've also imposed WP:1RR on this page as a discretionary sanction. This should not in any way be used as a license to continue revert warring over the existing dispute, but is intended to cover any future disputes that may come up while editors continue to work on the article. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:07, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look into it. Magherbin (talk) 04:20, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

History draft (last section)

In the thirteenth century the Malassay appear to back the Amhara rebel Yekuno Amlak in his conflict with the Zagwe dynasty. Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi was originally a Malassay serving under a Garad named Abun Adashe prior to becoming leader of the Adal Sultanate. In the sixteenth century the main troops of Adal Sultanate's leader Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi were the Malassay during the invasion of Abyssinia. The Malassay participated in the conquest of Habasha at the decisive Battle of Shimbra Kure. Emperor Lebna Dengel chronicles states the Malassay were the Muslim enemy that invaded. In the reign of Emperor Sarsa Dengel, the Hadiya Kingdom was supported by 500 Malassay who had arrived from Harar territory to battle Ethiopia. Under the Emirate of Harar, the entire army was commanded by a Garad who had several militias under him labeled the Malassay.

Updated by removing the references about the details of the battle sultanate of shoa was involved in, I originally added it for context but it may not be appropriate for the Malssay article, it can be included if we find references discussing malassay and Shoa specifically. The other lines were omitted as well since it can be found in the identity section anyway. Magherbin (talk) 20:39, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

The draft you wrote above looks good Ragnimo (talk) 05:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Unsourced edits

Every source included in the page seems to imply that the Malassay were neither exclusive to the Adal sultanate nor used initially by them, but by their predecessors in the region centuries prior to it's creation. The only argument given against this is that they were basically the same state which is fundamentally not true and can simply be disproven by the existence of distinct pages on here for them and that they all individually contain different information. 2601:280:CB02:28F1:ED32:5814:1F60:5414 (talk) 05:32, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

The infobox is congested with your additions and the allegiance section is reserved for states not people. Now you've added Wej province as well. I suggest you get consensus before editing. Regarding the claim that the different states you've added have separate articles doesnt prove anything, wikipedia isnt a source. I dont think the details on the Battle of Shimbra Kure is also relevant. Can you tell me why you're using revolving IP's and vandalizing pages such as Battle of Chelenqo? [18] Magherbin (talk) 05:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)