Talk:May Yohé

Hey cool article!

Excellent -- interesting story. With pictures too. Great job people.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:41, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Spelling things out

I entirely see the logic of the recent edit spelling out MAY's initials, but I think the earlier version is clear enough and doesn't patronise the reader by stating the obvious, as I'm afraid the spelled-out version does, to my eye. Very happy to withdraw if there is a consensus against me on this, naturally. Comments cordially invited. Tim riley (talk) 17:32, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

ok dokey. :) --Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

That's most understanding of you, Tomwsulcer. Thank you for your gracious response. Regards. Tim riley (talk) 17:57, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

And TUFYGR (And thank you for your gracious response. :)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Touché! I laughed aloud! Tim riley (talk) 18:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Haha! Thanks for the nice message above, Tom. I agree with Tim that it is clear enough without spelling out the initials. Any further suggestions or corrections welcome, though! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Possible additional sources for consideration

About May Yohe mostly from NY Times

Here's more information possibly useful in case you'd like to add it to the article. It's mostly from the NY Times archives. I'm not familiar enough with which direction the current contributors are going with the article so I'll just leave the data here; feel free to use it if it merits inclusion.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 03:43, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow. This is a lot of research. I added some of these and commented on others. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. John F. Barlow (talk) 21:35, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Here's a very interesting ref: http://gabrielleray.150m.com/ArchiveTextXYZ/MayYohe.html -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:11, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Extended content

Note: One report suggested that King Edward VII found her to be beautiful, but theatre showman Florenz Ziegfeld, Jr. preferred Frankie Bailey. This anecdote is rather informal. We already have a long informal quote in the article. I don't think this should go in. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Agree.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Other reports include a woman in period dress appearing in the kitchen, frightening the entire staff, and vanishing in the dining room, and visions of a little girl in a window, thought to be the spirit of an actress/singer of the 1890s, May Yohe, who grew up in the hotel, the website says. Unless this ghost story is really famous, and repeated in multiple sources, I don't think it's encyclopedic. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Agree; when people become famous, that small towns stoop to tactics such as this (ie May Yohe is a ghost) to try to bring visitors, etc.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) May Yohe Alleges that He Took Jewelry Valued at $300,000 -- to be arrested on sight -- detectives from police headquarters searching in the Tenderloin. ... Putman Bradlee Strong, who once bore the rank of Major in the United States Army ... is a fugitive from justice... The alleged crime for which he is wanted is that of stealing from Miss Yohe jewels valued by her at $300,000. ... Vault Box Opened. Box No. 35, in the second row of the valut, was the one which was expected to indicate to May Yohe whether the man in who she had placed implicit trust had left her almost penniless. She was weeping when the lawyers drew out the iron drawer. ... Miss Yohe, after looking at them, fell backward in a fainting condition, and at the same time uttered a cry. ... Among the things ... an imitation pearl necklace, valued at $4, made in imitation of the famous Hope necklace, and used by Miss Yohe only while she was on the stage... We already say "In 1902, Mrs. Strong announced to the newspapers that her husband had decamped with £20,000 worth of her jewelery. A few days later, Captain Strong arrived in London, heard with surprise, and denied with disgust, his wife's preposterous story. She followed him to London, and a sort of reconciliation was effected." This article seems to make various errors of fact - for instance, Strong seems to have been a Captain, not a Major. However, it confirms some of the account; I've added a mention of the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) According to a cable dispatch received here by Emanuel Friend, attorney for May Yohe, she was married to Capt. Putnam Bradlee Strong in Buenos Ayres, Argentine Republic, last Thursday ... The divorce of Lord Francis Hope from May Yohe was made absolute in England on the day she was married to Capt. Strong ... Capt. Strong, son of ex-Mayor Strong of this city, served as a volunteer in the Philippines and was appointed a Captain of regulars. His escapades with May Yohe made it necessary for him to resign... The later report says San Francisco. This says Buenos Aires. Can we tell which? -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Not sure. Conflicting accounts. I had conflicting reports happen a lot in Hope Diamond and I didn't always really know how to handle it, so I just put in both accounts and said they were conflicting, but who knows, and sometimes tried to indicate my best guess about which was right. There was one source which was clearly wrong, but I included it (because it was interesting) and gave other sources saying that the first source was wrong.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) This is an empirical fact. I would leave the article alone unless/until we get a reliable source(s) like the marriage certificate, or numerous good sources agreeing. Plus, the NYT's reporting on this subject seems to be barely a step up from gossip. We'll keep an eye out for more reliable sources to settle the issue, but it's not an important enough fact to spend a lot of ink on discussing the issue. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Three trunks said to be hers leave Hastings after Midnight. Not sure what this adds. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Agree, only that it indicates she once lived in Hastings-on-Hudson. Is there a category of "Category:People from Hastings-on-Hudson, New York" (?). Minor stuff. That she was trying to live like a "normal person" and live in Hastings-on-Hudson (a suburban river town on the Hudson River north of NY City.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) She lived in a lot of places. In bio articles, if we mention where the person lived at all, it's only when that fact bears on something important about their life or career, or if they lived there for a very long time. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) May Yohe ... yesterday took the auctioneer's bench at a sale of many of her treasured possessions ... and cajoled a number of good prices from the buyers. A mat of rare feathers which was presented to her by President Concha o fChila she sold to Ferdinand Hernandez for $465... May Yohe says she is not selling any of her jewels, but will take them with her when she goes to South America with her present husband, Captain Joun Smuts, a cousin of General Jan Smuts. She still had Henry Irving's mirror in 1921! This adds that they went to South America in 1921. I'll add something. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Ok.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) In a communication from Lisbon ... the correspondent there of The Daily Express says that on that day May Yohe and Putnam Bradlee Strong were living happily together at the Avenida Hotel as Mr. and Mrs. Atkinson. ... Strong denied that there had been any collusion between Miss Yohe and himself, that he had pawned the Smith sword of honor, or that he had borrowed money from his father's friends. Hmmm. The plot thickens. It is pretty clear that the NYT does not know all the facts. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) What's interesting to me is how Yohe and Strong were kind of like an olden-time Sonny and Cher, or even Elizabeth Taylor -- having weird supposedly "private" lives splayed out in public in weird ways (like their private lives became a kind of public show, possibly to keep Yohe's name registered in the minds of theatre-goers.) Or does it suggest that basically her life was really screwed up?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) She seems to have been extraordinarily irresponsible. I think that if she were a celebrity today, she would be more like Kari Ann Peniche than Elizabeth Taylor.  :-) -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) May Yohe, noted stage beauty of some years ago and former wife of Lord Hope, who was planning to reappear in public as a singer next week, sustained a sprained back last night when she tripped on the curb in avoiding a taxicab on Fifty-eighth street, near Eighth Avenue. The name of the injured woman was stated on the police records to be May Smith, but at the Circle Hotel it was said that she was May Yhoe. The injury is not serious and may not interfere with her plan to sing next week. Don't think this adds much. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Agree, only possibly a detail that city traffic was starting to get more dangerous. And maybe continues a trend of using fake names (ie Atkinsons, here "Smith") -- what was this about? to try to keep some of their lives from the prying eyes of the press?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Yes, I think you're right, but I don't think it's of encyclopedic interest that celebrities use fake makes to try to avoid being in the press when, for example, they trip in the street. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Putnam Bradlee Strong, who now calls himself an actor and is the husband of May Yohe, with whom he appears in vaudeville, filed a petition in bankruptcy yesterday. Strong and his wife have been rated as receiving more than $750 a week for their recent performances in this city, yet an item in his petition is a Hotel Cumberland board bill of $269, accumulated in May. ... the liabilities as $1,089 and the assets as $100... The assets include ten pairs of shoes, six suits of clothes, and five hats, valued at $50. Added this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Vaudeville -- I'm listening to lectures about this. There were chains of theatres, linked up. An owner of one of these chains would pay a set fee, sometimes several thousands of dollars a month, to a performer, who used the $$ to pay assistants, buy clothes for the act, train tickets, hotel rooms. They'd make a circuit -- visiting each city, and sometimes only being 10 minutes onstage for each performance. So they were constantly moving around. And it was a nice lifestyle. Vaudeville lasted until about the late 20s early 30s, when movies undercut the business.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Yes, such as the Orpheum circuit (a terrible article, by the way). The "talkies" killed vaudeville almost instantaneously: Why would you pay 15 cents to see a second-rate comedian live at the Orpheum, when you could see Al Jolson singing and doing his big act in the movies for only 5 cents. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Reports are being industriously circulated to the effect that Lord Francis Hope is about to rewed May Yohe, whom he divorced. May Yohe is now appearing in vaudeville in London. The New York Times correspondent has the authority of the nobleman to state that the report is preposterous. Added link. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) The NY Times definitely got hooked on the whole Yohe-Hope breakup story, and her numerous marriages were excellent material to help the paper sell copies. Like, the NY Times was a bit more like the National Enquirer or a British tabloid, not like the rather stuff somewhat left-of-center publication it is today.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Yes, it sure looks that way. They didn't have as many gossip magazines, I guess, and so the Times' entertainment section had to do the work of what People magazine does today. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) The claim of May Yohe, Mrs. Putnam Bradlee Strong of New York, against her former husband, Lord Francis Hope, for $45,000 has been settled for $5,000. It was announced Jan. 1 that the claim of May Yohe had been settled amicably, but the amount paid to her was not stated. Added ref. -- Ssilvers (talk) Even the lawsuits brought in press attention.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Lord Henry Francis Hope, brother of the Duke of Newcastle, and heir presumptive to the dukedom, received a discharge in the Bankruptcy Court to-day, subject to his payment of 10s. in the pound of his liabilities, which amount to L657,942 (pounds). Lord Hope is the husband of May Yohe, the actress. Doesn't seem to add anything, except the date of the bankruptcy. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Contracts were made to-day for the appearance of May Yohe (Lady Francis Hope) at the Chicago Opera House in the latter part of this month. Just reference that she played in chicago.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) I don't like this ref, because it just says that she *had agreed* to play in Chicago - it doesn't confirm that she actually did so. A review is better than a pre-view. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Lord Francis Pelham Clinton Hope, has separated from his wife, formerly May Yohe. His brother, the Duke of Newcastle, and other members of his family, never relaxed their efforts to secure this result. Could add something about how the family opposed her (duh!). I'll leave it to someone else if they want to add something about this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) wondered what they did other than tell him "divorce her". There might be accounts if any of the family members left diaries, or perhaps more extensive stuff in British press. But it looks like the marriage meltdown was mostly the result of the couple running out of money, right?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) No, other way around I think: They ran out of money because they lived a hedonistic and irresponsible lifestyle. She was protected, for a long time, by the fact that she made friends with the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) - she must have been rather charming. But eventually their behaviour reflected badly on their royal friends as well as his family. He was going to be a royal Duke, and I imagine that, in addition to his family, there was enormous pressure on him, from all social sides, to grow up and separate from this trashy American. All of this could be explained, but to do it well would require more than this NYT article. It might worth going into detail about it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) The Chronicle will tomorrow say that May Yohe (Lady Francis Hope) has taken the Court Theatre for the coming season. She was still a big thing in terms of stardom for the era -- she was still playing, while being 3 years into her marriage.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) No, again, I think this means exactly the opposite: They only way she could remain on stage was to take the lease of the theatre herself and produce shows starring herself. A vanity theatre season. If she was a big star, in demand by other producers, she would not have had to use her husband's money to produce herself. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) May Yohe, the former London music hall singer, whose marriage to Lord Francis Hope and subsequently to Major Putnam Bradlee Strong ... has again embarked upon the matrimonial seas. Her new husband is F. M. Reynolds, a musician formerly attached to a musical comedy company, whom she has just married at Seattle. Added link. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) "Matrimonial seas" -- oooooh. Do reporters really write like that? So what's the total count of MY's marriages -- four? three?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) The question is, did she actually marry Reynolds? It appears not, as she was still signing her name as "Strong". -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Destitute both of money and of reputation, May Yohe, the former musical comedy star ... has been stricken with paralysis. In a cheap cafe in San Francisco the blow came suddenly as she was singing one of the old songs. May Yohe was born in Pennsylvania in a little town near Philadelphia. Her mother took her to the city, where she learned French and German. She developed a singing voice that was first heard in a Philadelphia church choir. Then, coming to New York, she went on the stage, where she attracted the attention of Lord Francis Hope ... One of the wedding presents was the famous Hope diamond. It was in 1893 that they were married, and for seven years they lived together. Then came Capt., later Major, Putnam Bradlee Strong ... Fresh from the Philippines he met her in San Francisco, and they eloped, going to Japan, and Lord Francis Hope divorced her. She and Major Strong traveled much, separating and reuniting several times, but finally separating for good. Since then May Yohe has been heard of from time to time, dropping lower and lower in the ranks of the profession, until the end came in the San Francisco cafe. Strong, when last heard from, was at Macao, in China. Stricken with paralysis? For a day? A year? -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Yes it's unclear. Maybe that's reporter-speak for passed out from alcohol? But stuff in here confirms other stuff like marriage dates, or that she spoke other languages (maybe all upper-crusters back then learned multiple languages). What I don't get also, is how May Yohe grew up rather privileged even though her parents supposedly split when M.Y. was very young. Seems like sometimes there's a pattern with upper-middle kids whose parents split, and the daughter wants to get Daddy back, and turns to performing perhaps as a psychological way to do this -- to win attention. This is my OR of course, but I see the pattern with others. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:00, 3 October 2011 (UTC) Yes. I didn't think we wanted to use this article, because the main point about being "stricken" did not seem to pan out, as she was later fine. But if you see any key info in here, go ahead and try to use the article as a ref in the MY entry, and I'll be happy to review what you do and give you feedback. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) May Yohe, who is billed in the mess of nonsense produced last evening as Lady Francis Hope. ... When May Yohe left here she was said to have three notes in her voice. She has apparently lost two of them in her journey across the Atlantic. But with a fore-front--which in this case means from the neck to the waist line--blazing like the show window in a Broadway store in which are massed thousands of "Parisian diamonds" -- your choice for $1 -- she displayed a couple of dresses and almost paralyzed the crowd with that one tone of her voice that is left when she tried to sing. The crowd applauded her because she was Lady Francis Hope. Rather sensibly she refused to try and sing again. Besides her dazzling display of diamonds ... she wore a liberal allowance of grease paints and a handsome gown of white crepe de chine over yellow silk, a handsome opera cloak of white satin with elaborate gold apliqued work ... Altogether, she was a stunning picture. When she opened her mouth to speak she was all right. But her efforts at singing reminded one of an amateur housekeeper trying to file a dull meat saw. It was interesting as an experiment, pretty tough as music. Lady Muriel Despair ................... May Yohe. A brutal review. Feel free to add this to the article if you wish. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) It chronicles her decline. I think it belongs in, somewhere, not only because it's what happened, but since it makes the earlier fairy-tale parts of the story sweeter. The picture emerging is that M.Y. was more beautiful to look at than talented as an actress or singer, and this became more pronounced as she got older and fell upon hard times?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Yeah, I think you're right. My take on it is that her voice started to deteriorate very early in her career. She was probably a spirited (and possibly clever) little actress, who, given the right cooperation by the music director, could still belt out a tune in the mid-1890s, maybe with some speak-singing, but that her singing voice, by 1900, got to the point where it just wasn't useful any more. As I said, go ahead and add it to the article with a pithy quote, and I'll take a look. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Lord Francis and his wife ... have nearly completed the circle of the globe. In last November they left England for Ceylon ... They next went to Sydney, Australia, remaining there for four months. Then they crossed to San Francisco. The trip is made purely for pleasure. Lord Francis Hope ... said yesterday that Lady Francis had received no offers for the stage. "She would have to greatly change her mind," said he, "before she returned to the stage. But of course she might." The Hopes will sail next Wednesday on the Oceanic, if passage can be secured. Meanwhile, they will got to Philadelphia and Bethlehem, Penn., to visit Lady Francis's parents. Not sure if this adds anything. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC) I think it does -- wealthy people, living overly-extravagant lives, traveling the world. Also shows that M.Y. still had affection for her parents. If their financial situation by 1900 had been so dire, why were they traveling around the world, spending $$, living it up? And I think it's interesting in this sense too -- back then, few people were able to be globetrotters like this couple -- it was a sign that more extensive travel was coming to more and more people. --Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) Yohe and Hope had nearly unlimited credit, because he was likely to be the next Duke. There are only a handful of dukes in England - it's essentially a royal title. Hope's bankruptcy involved hundreds of thousands of pounds, which was a huge fortune in those days. But both Hope and Yohe must have had serious gambling problems or some other serious problems; it was not just that they were living it up, they were pissing away huge piles of money. Yes, if you can figure out how to tell the story with these sources, by all means, go ahead. The only thing I would say is that this is a fairly brief period in her life, so try to keep it down to a few sentences. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) One last note -- I'm limiting myself to research here since you fine people are doing a superlative job crafting an excellent article. :) --Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) I appreciate it, but you have read these sources, and you should go ahead and try to write something. I'll be happy to review it and either give you feedback or try to improve it. Like I said, the hardest thing is to take a lot of info and write something efficient, encyclopedic and brief while still being descriptive and clear. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC) If I can find the time I'll expand on her time with Hope and Strong. Thank you for all the input. Regards, John F. Barlow (talk) 21:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC) References

Ideas and thoughts

Stuff to possibly consider:

• so May only (possibly) had one child, which she gave up for adoption? or did she? Any others? any idea how the issue of children may have affected her marriages? (and -- if she's having lots of lovers and spouses, how did she keep from getting pregnant? or was she infertile?)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• I'm curious about the years during her marriage to Hope; she was at the top of her game. How did she meet him? Courtship? There must be more info about this time of their lives.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

One of the NYT articles said that he saw her years earlier on stage in the U.S. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• wonder why wasn't she in movies when they started to come out--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• possible note: add that musically these were the days b4 microphones were invented, so singers had to have strong vocal delivery. So M.Y. probably was a loud, strong singer.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• seems similar in some ways to career of Lady Gaga -- so-so singer, but brilliant with self-promotion and costumes, and beautiful to look at.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I would not compare her career to Gaga's. Gaga has been at the top of her profession for several years, whereas Yohe was really only a star in 1893 and 1894. For the rest of her career she had either not yet made it big or was a has-been trading off her husband's title and her former stardom. She was a one-hit wonder, more like a reality star that had one hit show. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• perhaps the article will flow better if organized chronologically instead of breaking up her performance years with her marriage years. And perhaps helpful to give the reader of her approximate age during periods of her life; like how old she was when she married Hope, Strong, etc. but I can see advantages for splitting it into "performance" and "marriage" too.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, the problem is the big fat direct quote. It may be that, now that we have more info, we need to ditch the quote or break it up into smaller pieces. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• lead paragraph -- nice. Like how the last line chronicles her decline.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• think the idea of M.Y. being one of the first early "stars" might be mentioned -- she was a personality onstage and off.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't think she was a very big star, compared to someone like, say, Lillian Russell. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• unclear whether M.Y.s parents divorced or not when she was a young child; one account I came across said they were divorced. Not sure here.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot of problems like that here. I think the best thing to do is to keep looking for more sources, and to only report the stuff that seems very reliable. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• the whole fake names business -- Atkinsons, Smith -- what was with that? assume it was a means to try to stay somewhat private (or was it a way to excite further publicity?)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• looks like there were 6 to 7 marriages; like the Liz Taylor of her day. Wonder what her impact was on the public imagination? how come there wasn't much written about her numerous marriages or had she become uninteresting during that time.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I think it looks like there were only 3 or 4 marriages, and that a couple of other times she stated that she had married someone, but that it was not true. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

At times it is difficult to discern fact from fiction in old newspaper articles. Her first three marriages were well reported; Murphy, Reynolds and McAuffle were not and may have never occurred. Possibly the marriage to Reynolds was annulled early on. The first article I’ve found linking John Smuts with Yohé was written four years after their marriage. John F. Barlow (talk) 03:19, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Yep. That's why Wikipedia calls us "editors" - we have to make editorial decisions that will help the reader understand what happened. In this case, there is so much erroneous stuff that I think it is best for use to look for multiple sources before making the close calls. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Most of the information I've come across have multiple sources, though I realize that doesn't make it true. I do wonder about her European education. Early magazine articles have been known to pad a celebrity's biography on occasion. Thanks John F. Barlow (talk) 07:05, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not too worried about that one. She spoke European languages, and it makes sense that she would have been sent away to school in Europe. Obviously, if we see anything that throws doubt on this, we would re-think, but this was not uncommon for upper middle-class girls. Note that part of this article is an interview with Yohe, in which she says she studied in Dresden. You may need to copy it into a Word document to see it easily. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:12, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Almost certainly there are no recorded versions of her singing, but if there were, it would be cool to have a link. The phonograph was invented 1880s (?) so it's possible.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Restoring my edits

I am going to restore my edits which were reverted by User:Ssilvers with an incorrect explanation. this user reverted my edits with the explanation "restored language from direct quotes. Do not change the wording in the direct quotes". None of my edits changed any direct quotes. here is what my edits did:

• Corrected capitalization of headings to Wikipedia style per WP:HEAD -- use sentence case instead of title case; "Headings should not contain questions"; and "Do not use A, An, or The as the first word, unless it is an inseparable part of a name".
• Identified President McKinley by his full common name (President William McKinley) where it first appears as is standard writing style and Wikipedia style -- see WP:FULLNAME.
• "they" is shorter than "the two", which is just bad writing style.
• "Initially" does not add any information in this paragraph. It is just taking up space. The very next sentence tells us that she was given the job later.

So I don't know why my edits were reverted. If Ssilvers doesn't agree with one of my changes, s/he should revert that change only, and discuss it on the talk page, instead of reverting all of the other changes that I made the are consistent with Wikipedia policy and style. Ground Zero | t 13:16, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The headings that you changed, McKinley's link and "they" were all part of a direct quote from the 1908 source shown. You cannot change them. "Initially" is needed here, for exactly the reason you state. Initially it was one thing, later it was another. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:19, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

My bad. This is what you get for reading the article in edit mode instead of read mode. I couldn't see that this whole block was a direct quote. I have fixed it, and I apologize for giving you grief over it. It is unusual, though, to have a quoted block of text that large in Wikipedia, and it is probably bad practice, but I will leave it alone.

But on "initially", if it was one thing then later another, it is clear from "later' that there has been a change, and it is not necessary to repeat that indicator by using "initially" also. In fact, it is redundant.

"Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell." -- William Strunk Jr., in The Elements of Style

Ground Zero | t 14:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Recent changes

A number of changes have been made to the article recently which I, for one, feel are unnecessary. The article was fine as it was and I do not believe that they are improvements. I’m starting a section here to discuss whether changes need to be made to the article. Jack1956 (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Jack1956. It is not useful to make "grammatical" changes that are not supported by usage and grammar guides. I disagree with the most recent changes. See WP:BRD. If you can articulate a good basis for any of the changes that you are suggesting, I would be glad to consider them, but your recent changes are not improvements. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:31, 22 April 2023 (UTC)