Talk:No Tears Left to Cry

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Pop[edit]

@Fan4Life: I ain't "disagreeing with the source", McIntyre called it "the perfect pure-pop banger". I can even argue that this isn't dance-pop, he merely said it's a mix of dance-pop and 90's influences, he never directly implied that the song itself is dance-pop. Hayman30 (talk) 13:14, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It literally says the song is "A beautiful, weightless mix of dance-pop with slight 90s influences", that is explicitly saying that the song is dance-pop, it doesn't say that it's a mix of pop and dance-pop. You may not agree, but that's irrelevant, the source describes the song as dance-pop, when it says pop it is being very general, it isn't describing the specific genre of the song. Fan4Life (talk) 13:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lol you aren't even making sense. Hayman30 (talk) 13:19, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: Please explain this revert. Hayman30 (talk) 13:36, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Part of reverting the page back to the way it was before yourself and User:Coolmarc took it upon yourselves to change the genre because you disagreed with it. In response to your previous comment, please discuss this politely and respectfully. Fan4Life (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The source called it "a beautiful, weightless mix of dance-pop with slight 90s influences" and you said "it doesn't say that it's a mix of pop and dance-pop", does that make sense to you? Hayman30 (talk) 13:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: We have not disagreed with anything, you are disagreeing without any explanation on this talk page with the addition of reliably sourced genre disco where NME clearly calls the song disco. CoolMarc 13:54, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that there's no such thing as "the last stable, agreed upon version of the page", you made that up because you disagree with reliably sourced content. Forbes.com, as pointed out by Marc, is a relatively unreliable source. You were removing sourced material. Hayman30 (talk) 14:02, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Once genres are decided, we should consider which music WikiProject banners to add or keep on this talk page. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Genre consensus[edit]

Following the unexplained content removal below, the following was removed by Fan4Life:

source as a reference for dance-pop. In the source Caramanica calls the song British-influenced dance-pop.

Some comments would appreciated so we can move forward as both clearly source the genres and are reputable sources in my view. Pinging users who have recently edited the article for their view. @Hayman30: @Ss112: @Fan4Life: @Aytk: @Another Believer: @Music01: @Tomica: @Cornerstonepicker: CoolMarc 20:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd stick with TNYT. It's directly calling it a dance-pop song. We shouldn't use Forbes.com contributor as a reliabe source.. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 00:18, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article says it a "pop-R&B" song and since "dance-pop" is already there so i just chose to put the other genre, The source is reliable it comes from Billboard? 59.100.215.150 (talk) 01:58, 23 April 2018 (UTC) (Blocked as sock)[reply]

Pop and dance-pop aren't the same music genre. "power ballad [...] before shifting into pop-meets-R&B territory" is loose compared to TNYT calling it dance-pop. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 02:09, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should be used dance-pop and disco, since both genres are appropriately sourced. Music01 (talk) 02:43, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NME saying that it "tackles hate with hope and disco" isn't as direct/explicit as TNTY calling the song dance-pop. Fan4Life (talk) 14:47, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: in what world? Even the article title says On ‘No Tears Left To Cry’ Ariana Grande tackles hate and devastation with positivity and disco. It couldn't be more clear. CoolMarc 17:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A disco beat. Some pop songs feature a trap beat. Beat ≠ genre. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I missed that sentence saying "disco beat" later on. In that case, I agree that only dance-pop as sourced by TNYT should be included. CoolMarc 18:43, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ALso a UK garage, Clubland-style Eurodance Eurotechno single, out of respect to the people of Manchester, [1], [2], [3].--2A02:C7D:892B:3D00:CC2E:2666:82CD:3B94 (talk) 23:56, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rate Your Music is made by users.
  • "percussion shuffles into a UK garage-inspired beat" ≠ genre.
  • Noisey doesn't call the song Euro-anything. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 03:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coolmarc: I see you added disco, despite the fact that consensus was reached that only dance-pop should be included. Finding a source that backs up your opinion doesn't mean that you can ignore consensus. Fan4Life (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: No. The consensus is dance-pop is a properly-sourced genre, not that it is the only genre. A source is now explicitly calling the song disco. Hayman30 (talk) 15:35, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hayman30: The consensus was that only dance-pop as sourced by TNYT should be included. Adding a new genre when consensus exists for just one requires discussion first. Fan4Life (talk) 22:11, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: Nope, stop making up non-existent consensus. Hayman30 (talk) 09:55, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hayman30: As you can earlier in this discussion, myself, User:Coolmarc and User:Cornerstonepicker all agreed that only dance-pop as sourced by TNYT should be included, that is consensus. Fan4Life (talk) 17:51, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: quit the oblivious act. Read the edit history and the source used. CoolMarc 19:13, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coolmarc: I have read the source, but that isn't the issue I'm raising. What I'm saying is that you agreed to only include dance-pop, then found a new source that backs up your original point of view, but instead bringing that source to the talk page and discussing it, you instead took it upon yourself to add disco as a genre. Fan4Life (talk) 14:16, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fan4Life: I agreed to not include disco based on the source from NME which was referring to the song's beat. Here, like Hayman30 says Billboard explicitly call the song a "disco track", therefore it is not needed to take it to talk page. It comes from a reputable source and not "my original point of view". CoolMarc 14:45, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coolmarc: Well if disco is to be included, then the part saying it has a disco beat is redundant and should be removed. Fan4Life (talk) 16:45, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead single[edit]

Where is source to "was released as the album's lead single"? Edgarasb (talk) 15:42, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Edgarasb: Pretty much all of the sources in release and promotion. Hayman30 (talk) 15:51, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hayman30: But there isn't any official comfirmation, shouldn't Wikipedia be a reliable source? Edgarasb (talk) 18:27, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Edgarasb: There has also been official confirmation from Grande's label Republic Records in this press release, they say "No Tears Left To Cry" is the first single from her upcoming highly anticipated full-length album. Rolling Stone, a reputable source, say in this article: "Positivity rules lead single from pop singer's upcoming fourth LP". CoolMarc 19:05, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please also note that third party reliable sources are often preferred over "official confirmation". Hayman30 (talk) 22:57, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:PLOT[edit]

As Ss112 pointed out in their edit summary, "...per WP:PLOT MOS:PLOT, "The plot summary for a work, on a page about that work, does not need to be sourced with in-line citations, as it is generally assumed that the work itself is the primary source for the plot summary." So we don't need all the refs for the description of what happens in the video. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:06, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ssilvers: Nothing on WP:PLOT says that though. MOS:PLOT says that, but it also says However, editors are encouraged to add sourcing if possible, as this helps discourage original research CoolMarc 06:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coolmarc: We're not in danger of WP:OR here. It's not such an outlandish video or plot that somebody's going to add speculation about what's happening. There's nothing wrong with an overall source but adding sourcing at the end of every line is unnecessary and excessive. Ss112 08:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I disagree, as does MOS:PLOT as I quoted above, it actually encourages references. There are various factual details in the video that have been (and still will be) summarized differently and need a reputable source to back it up, not original research. Details not mentioned in the many sources available are not notable. There is no "overall source" either as not one article writes about every scene in the video. CoolMarc 09:05, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're taking part of MOS:PLOT and saying that's the overall gist. It states you can add references "to discourage original research". As I said, we're not in danger of having original research added here. But sure, whatever. As I said yesterday on the article, I don't particularly care either way, but you've now made five reverts on this article in the space of 24 hours and none have been reverting vandalism. You need to take a step back, because I've already notified an admin of this behaviour. It's really looking like WP:OWN on your part, that every change (Fan4Life's genres, IPs adding little details, you and Ssilvers with the plot, and now the name of a chart) somebody makes you will revert. Ss112 09:12, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on content, not the contributor. There is no "taking a part and saying it's the overall gyst". MOS:PLOT directly says that references aren't needed, but are encouraged. CoolMarc 10:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I already did comment on the content. You also basically just said in your last sentence right there what I already said above. I was giving you advice because what you're doing is directly affecting every change made to the article by every editor. You don't need to remind me of basic behavioural guidelines, thank you. Ss112 10:57, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Finland / Latvia[edit]

I moved Finland and Latvia to the top five section of the opening paragraph, since the table below reflects the same. It originally debuted at number seven in Finland, but reached a new peak of number two, so I moved it from the top ten to the top five. As for Latvia, it jumped into the top three so I added it to the page as well. I excluded Greece from this edit, since apparently the chart shown in the table is not the official overall chart for the country, but the other two countries are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sixinchboca (talk • contribs) 21:23, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Japan Peak[edit]

The song reached #12 this week in Japan (https://www.billboard.com/charts/japan-hot-100 directly from Billboard) yet the edit of this is being immediately reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sixinchboca (talk • contribs) 09:01, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Updated. You were reverted because Visual Edit was messing with the formatting. Hayman30 (talk) 09:05, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NTLTC listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect NTLTC. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed, Rosguill talk 18:00, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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