Talk:Norodom Ranariddh

Party size

The line about the NRP being the 3rd largest party is a little premature - as the People's Daily citation says - election results are preliminary at this stage and they were not national elections but commune (local government) elections. We will have to wait until next year for the result of the national election to see who will be number 3. Paxse 16:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Norodom Ranariddh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wugapodes (talk · contribs) 19:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Will review. Wugapodes (talk) 19:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Checklist

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

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1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   B. Cites reliable sources, where necessary:

   C. No original research:

   I checked a couple of sources and everything seemed to check out, but I don't have access to the books, and 140+ is a lot to check, so I'm AGFing that the editors have used them all appropriately.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused (see summary style):

   I will say at times it felt as if it got a little side-tracked but not enough to fail this.

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

I 100% underestimated the size of this article, and have been working on this on and off for a while. But I'm done now, so here we go!

General notes, if it has a number, you need to address it for GA, if it's a bullet point, it's an optional suggestion or comment that you don't need to act on right now. When I quote things, you can use ctrl+f to search the page for the specific line I quoted.

1. "Armee Nationale Sihanoukiste" an English translation of this should be provided, especially in the lead.

   I did a Google search for this, and two transliterations exist: "Sihanouk National Army" and "Sihanoukist National Army". In a number of literature sources, and even in news publications, the informal term "FUNCINPEC army" is used, which I have included in the text. I'm at a dilemma as to which choice to use if I were to follow through this suggestion. Anyway I linked the page in the lead...what is your suggestion on this? Mr Tan (talk) 05:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   Hmm. Is there any compelling reason one should be preferred over the other? I do really think a translation is needed, but if you can't come up with a good reason to pick one over the other, I think the wikilink will suffice. Wugapodes (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   Agreed but I do think that translations would be better provided in the main article (ie. Armee Nationale Sihanoukiste), rather than on this article itself, since this article is about "Norodom Ranariddh" and not the "Armee Nationale Sihanoukiste". I believe that my interpretation is in line with Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English)#Include_alternatives. I think that if your line of reasoning is followed, then maybe the translated text for FUNCINPEC would also need to be include in the body of this article, I checked that article, and to paste ""Front uni national pour un Cambodge indépendant, neutre, pacifique, et coopératif, which translates to "National United Front for an Independent, Neutral, Peaceful, and Cooperative Cambodia"" would be extremely long. Anyway, it seems to me that "Armee Nationale Sihanoukiste" translates exactly to "Sihanoukist National Army", but I'm not sure since I'm not a French speaker. Mr Tan (talk) 13:33, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

   I'll let it go. It's not worth holding up the review over, and at this point I'm not sure it's even necessary. Wugapodes (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

2. "and was later sacked" this is encyclopedic and should be changed to something like "ousted" or "removed" depending on how it happened.

   Fixed. Mr Tan (talk) 05:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

3. "Ranariddh was born in Phnom Penh to Sihanouk by his first wife Phat Kanhol," This sentence could stand to be reworded as "his" especially in a biography is often assumed to be the subject, and in this case is actually referring to the subject's father.

   Fixed. Mr Tan (talk) 05:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

4. "part of his high school studies in Lycee Descartes" Is Lycee Descartes a school or a subject? I think it's a school, so "at" should be used instead of "in", but I might be wrong. I think this should be clarified.

   Yes, it's a school. You may want to try wiki Lycee for the term.

   Then you may want to use "at" rather than "in" Wugapodes (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   Done Mr Tan (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

5. "he excelled in the science subjects" I don't have access to the source, but is that the actual wording? Either way, I think we may want to think about neutrality as "excelled" sounds a little promotional and editorialized, but I'd be open to arguments otherwise.

   Hmm...the exact text from the source is: "Being good at some science subjects but weak in mathematics, he wanted to be physician, a surgeon, but his grandmother Queen Sisowath, discouraged him, saying: "Why? You are the king's son, why should you study medicine?" Mr Tan (talk) 05:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   I think the wording gets a little away from the source. I'd suggest either "good" or "succeeded at" which are a little more neutral and closer to the source. Wugapodes (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   Fixed Mr Tan (talk) 13:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

6. "struggled to cope with his studies, and which he attributed to" and or which, I'm not partial to one but both just isn't grammatical.

   From source: "All my professors including the dean were very embarrassed because I did not succeed in my year. How were they to tell the head of state that his son was not successful in his examinations? For me it was a bad souvenir. During all my studies I have always succeeded, except that one year in Paris." He acquired the image of a playboy in the year he spent in Paris where, he admitted, he neglected his studies because of the social distractions. "It was not a question of girlfriends, it was a question of a change of lifestyle he said. "It was very difficult to move from a boarding school where you had to be very disciplined, to the university where you were very, very free. There was a lot of freedom, you know. There was no system of control. In high school the teachers spelt out all the lessons, but in university it was a different style. Life in Paris, if you are not conscious enough, is not at all suitable for serious study...." I thought this was the best way to summarise and succinctly this part of Ranariddh's life for Wiki, any suggestions to improve if you feel the prose is not good? Mr Tan (talk) 05:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   I would suggest "focus on" instead of "cope with" because "cope" sounds more like the work was too hard while the source makes it seem like it was social distractions. Your thoughts? Wugapodes (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   Accepted & fixed Mr Tan (talk) 13:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

7. "where he enrolled into the law faculty at the University of Provence" is faculty the right word? If he was a student he wasn't faculty. Or maybe I'm unfamiliar with European and Cambodian schooling terminology (and that's true about a lot of this so tell me if something makes sense to people who know the subject).

   Maybe this will help? Faculty (division) Mr Tan (talk) 05:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   It does indeed! Thanks. Wugapodes (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

8. "went on to take the PhD qualifying examinations within 1969" within seems rather imprecise; is there a specific date?

   Fixed. Mr Tan (talk) 05:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

9. "awarded a higher diploma" What degree is higher than a PhD?

   Amended a little. Perhaps this would help: [1]; I do understand that there are some qualifications called Graduate diploma... Mr Tan (talk) 05:49, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

   Yeah, that's interesting. I think just stating the degree is better in this case because it is a little unclear. Wugapodes (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

10. "a transitional organisation headed by Sihanouk to prepare that served to represent sovereign inteSorrests in the United Nations." I'm not sure what this sentence means, please revise it.

    Sorry - I must have forgotten to remove part of the phrase while doing adjustments in the past. Anyway, you may find information about Google "SNC" and "Sihanouk" and you should be able to get an idea. I give you an example source: [2] Mr Tan (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

11. "failure to toe the party line" Is this the actual charge? If so, it should be in quotes. If not, we should use a more encyclopedic phrasing.

    Modified Mr Tan (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

12. "Several FUNCINPEC MPs" here, "MPs" should be spelled out and the abbreviation put in parentheses as it's the first time it's used (or you could just not use the abbreviation but that's a matter of style).

    Modified Mr Tan (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

13. "resort-cum-casino" I know "cum" is latin for "with" or "including" however I don't think this here is a common phrase or likely to be understood by many readers.

    Fixed Mr Tan (talk) 12:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

14. What is the BLDP? It's mentioned in the section "Conflict escalation & 1997 clashes" but I don't remember it from earlier. It might be worth it to spell it out here again since it's possible readers will have forgotten (or not have read) the earlier mention (if there is one)

    Fixed Mr Tan (talk) 13:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

15. This sentence needs rephrased "After his ouster, Ranariddh several interviews to international press such as the Far Eastern Economic Review to make public denunciations against the clashes." Or it's missing a word. I'm unsure.

    Modified....do you think's its better? Mr Tan (talk) 13:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

16. "tended" should this be "tendered" or do I misunderstand?

    Fixed Mr Tan (talk) 13:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

17. Under "Awards and royal appointments" I think the English translation needs to come closer to the non-English (Is it Cambodian? That's what I assume but I'm not familiar with Asian Languages for the most part). They're rather far at times and it gets confusing and distracting.

    Modified...do you think it's better? Mr Tan (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

18. "quoted that Sihamoni had expressed support for Ranariddh to succeed their father past" This is unclear and needs to be reworded.

    Fixed - missed the grammar during expansion Mr Tan (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• I will say that your sourcing is very good. Not too much, not too little, and everything that seems like something I'd raise issue with have a citation. Not a critique, just thought I'd give a compliment.
• Not a requirement for GA as it's understandable, but for FA you'll want to fix this prose as it's a little choppy: "The Khmer Rouge which controlled parts of western and northern Cambodia, engaged in these activities for a revenue source. The felled trees are sold to Thai forestry companies for timber. The Cambodian government on its part, was unable to impose the law in territory controlled by the Khmer Rouge and were eager to retrieve some of the logging revenues that went to the Khmer Rouge. The following January, Ranariddh and Hun Sen signed a bilateral agreement with then-Thai Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai permitting felled trees to be legally exported to Thailand on a temporary basis until 31 March 1994.[44] The agreement provided for the creation of designated customs zones within Thai territory and allow Cambodian custom officials to inspect the logs and collect revenues from companies."

Thanks for highlighting, but I'm not too sure how I may rephrase this text for the moment. I have a hard copy of Kiernan's book with me, but I checked Google Books and there is "no preview". There is another online source that provides similar information, maybe you want to refer to page 792 (and adjacent pages) for your understanding and come up with some suggestion? [3] Mr Tan (talk) 13:14, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• "805,000 hectares and 1.4 million hectares" Does {{convert}} cover this? I'm not sure what a hectare is. Maybe a wikilink?

Fixed Mr Tan (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• "Hun Sen made an offer to FUNCINPEC to form a coalition government with FUNCINPEC" This sentence could use a reword.

Modified.... Mr Tan (talk) 13:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• "rapprochement" learned a new word today!
• If you plan to go for FA, you may want to read MOS:PERCENT as you have a couple and it might be a problem

Fixed Mr Tan (talk) 13:40, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Results

On Hold for 7 days (though this is a lot so if you need more time just ask). I'd also just like to say what an amazing job the nominator has done to improve this article. This was how the nom found the page and now it's easily on its way to FA status. While this may seem like a lot of critique, for an article of this size I don't think it's too much (I've seen shorter articles with more problems). If you need any clarification, just ask. Happy Editing! Wugapodes (talk) 04:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Listed A very wonderful job in expanding the article. Keep up the great work! Wugapodes (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Pre-emptive clarification on Ranariddh's end date as First PM

Although military clashes occured between 5-6 July 1997 and some news articles listed him as "ousted" in the first few days after the clashes, such as this article [4], it is not right to list Ung Huot as having succeeded Ranariddh as First PM right away. Neither 16 July 1997 is a right date when FUNCINPEC agreed to nominate him as PM [5]. The date of replacement should be marked on the day when there is some form of official ceremony, or signing of decree by an authorised person. In this case, the date of the assembly sitting is considered to be the date when Ranariddh was officially replaced.[6]

There is one interesting piece of evidence, which still addresses Ung Huot as the "Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation" on 29 July 1997. [7] Mr Tan (talk) 05:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)