Talk:Nymphaion (fire sanctuary)

Lead corrections

It should be noted that this place was located in the territory of Apollonia from 1st line:
Larson, p. 162, 2001: Outside the bounds of Greece proper, another oracle lay in the territory of Apollonia, a joint colony (founded during the seventh or sixth century) of Corinth.
Stocker, p. 319. 2009: The famous bitumen mines and the oracle at the Nymphaeum were located in the vicinity of Apollonia
Even Brill's New Pauly begins with: Nymphaio. Place in Illyria near Apollonia, and no word about an Illyrian tribe occupying it.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

It was located in an area between Bylliones and Amantes, near the territory of Apollonia, as also attested in primary sources. – Βατο (talk) 20:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see this in Papadopoulos, while Bejko et al. states in "the broader territory of Apollonia". Pliny the Elder mentions that is was in the region of Bylliones and Amantes, but none of the modern sources seem to agree with this specific primary.Alexikoua (talk) 21:42, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Papadopoulos provides the information about the Aoos river. Bejko et al. state in the area inhabited by Bylliones and Amantes, indeed it is identified with the Selenice area, which is on the Aoos river near Byllis. It also was relatively close to the city of Apollonia, and perhaps in its broader territory that included at some point and to some extent the territory of the Bylliones and Amantes. That information was already included in the artilcle as per Bejko et al.: and was placed near Apollonia and in its broader territory, with due weight since it was closer to Byllis, but you removed it adding undue weight content into the first sentence. All the lede was sourced, and your edits are not improvements, indeed the part and in its broader territory, after this edit [1] makes no sense now. – Βατο (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

All available material mentions Nymphaion as a place near Apollonia in the first line. It's wp:POV to manipulate this approach. I fail to see any removal. On the other hand it should be noted that the claim that it was located in the territory of Bylliones or Amantes is based on one specific primary.Alexikoua (talk) 08:46, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

You are refusing to understand the fact that it was mentioned many times as in relation to the specific barbarian tribes. Nowdays the accepted location is in the Selenice area near Byllis and in the area between Bylliones and Amantes (even an older alternative was near Bylliones). Your claim it should be noted that the claim that it was located in the territory of Bylliones or Amantes is based on one specific primary is completely false, there are also many secondary sources that stress it. Anyway, I agree with the inclusion of the information "near Apollonia" in the first sentence of the lede, I oppose your selective addition of sources and quotes as per WP:UNDUE. – Βατο (talk) 11:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

It is really weird you keep accusing me though you finally agreed that Apollonia should be mentioned in the first sentence. I also fail to see in Papadopoulos 2016, p. 440; Piccinini 2013, p. 319 any mention about Bylliones and Amantes, while Bejko et al. 2015, p. 4 adds that according to one primary Nymphaion was located in the territory of Amantes / Bylliones. Obviously the current text falls into OR and should be rephrased. Moreover, it would be great news if we had sports events like in the Nympaion festival organised by non-Greeks.Alexikoua (talk) 16:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

The current lead section includes the relevant information with due weight, all the content is sourced. – Βατο (talk) 16:19, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Necessary addition: Pliny the Elder mentions that the area was inhabited by the local Illyrian Bylliones and Amantes (Bejko et al., while Papadopoulos& Piccinini don't say a word about those tribes). The current offers the wrong impression that this a universally accepted fact.Alexikoua (talk) 20:19, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

It is a fact attested by primary sources. Another account place it near Amantia. Apollonia and Byllis minted coins attesting the site, while the earliest epigraphic material that attest it is from Byllis. The sanctuary was located on the borders of Apollonia (the fire spring was in the middle of a forest). When Apollonia expanded, it was located on its broader territory, but it was for shure outside the city. The lead already includes all the relevant information. – Βατο (talk) 22:26, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Excactly: an event claimed by a primary source should be described as such.Alexikoua (talk) 10:40, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Pliny is also based on the accounts of Theopompus, hence your claim is WP:UNDUE. The site was located inland of Apollonia, certainly inhabited by Illyrians. It was an area near Byllis and the Aoos, and identified with the Selenica area, a territory between Bylliones and Amantes in antiquity. The lede includes all the information of its location reported by primary sources and analyzed by secondary sources. – Βατο (talk) 11:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)