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Conflicting sources

Ok. I'm now confused. We have two reliable sources.

  1. Oblation: The Truth beneath the Leaves from Oble, a student newspaper of UP Baguio: "In 1977, strongman President Ferdinand Marcos banned “Hubad na Bayani” an Apo-sponsored play that paraded the human rights violations by the oppressive regime. To draw in audience for the show, Rolly Abad, an Apo member, ran naked in the A.S. lobby (also known as Palma Hall) at UP Diliman – the first Oblation run. A few months later, Abad was killed in a brawl; during these times, fraternity men were considered leftists. To honor Abad’s sacrifice, the Oblation Run has become a tradition that echoes symbolic expression of protests and voices on issues."
  2. Buns on the Run republished by the APO website: "It’s come a long way from that very first run done in 1977, when an APO member first ran naked in the A.S. lobby to promote a play the fraternity was sponsoring called “Hubad na Bayani,” a project dedicated to an APO member, Rolly Abad, who was killed in a rumble a few months before."

First source says Rolly Abad ran naked to promote the play Hubad na Bayani (Naked Hero) while the second source says an unnamed APO brother ran naked to promote Hubad na Bayani which was dedicated to Rolly Abad. Gaaaah. Moray An Par (talk) 07:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Hubad na bayani

Hubad na bayani (Naked Hero) is a dramatic *movie*, not a play. I think I've maybe seen one mention of it as a play.Naraht (talk) 12:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

That's one issue regarding the sources. Some say its a movie, some say its a play. The APO website says its a play. Moray An Par (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Stupid article

MANILA, Dec. 15 – A group of male neophyte student members of the Alpha Phi Omega (APO) chapter of the University of the Philippines (UP)-Diliman in Quezon City made the Oblation Run on Tuesday afternoon throughout the school campus. ... Contrary to popular belief, neophytes are forbidden to run. All those who run are full-pledged members who have volunteered are allowed to run.

— [1]

And I thought sources conflicting each other was new. Moray An Par (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Oblation Run/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 06:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC) Thank you for nominating this article. I am familiar with it. Please fix Neophyte as a disamb. link. No. invalid external links.

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    "Participants are male APO brothers numbering 24 on average.[5]"->"Each year, an average of two dozen male APO members participate at each UP campus.[5]" - avoid "brothers". Is it each campus? Please use active voice.
    "violates the said law."->"violates that law."
    Please reword: "The event was graced by Jejomar Binay," - did he run nude or just watch?
    "it every year on its anniversary, December 16.[1]" - unclear whether you mean the anniversary of APO or the anniversary of the first naked run at Hubad na Bayani?
    Was the Centennial Run on just one campus?
    "the run originates to an unnamed APO brother who ran naked inside the campus to promote"->"the run originated when an unnamed APO member ran naked inside the campus to promote" - was it the campus or the auditorium building?
    "The Oblation Run was defended by Senator" - say where he defended it.
    "it has tackled several national issues"->"it has called attention to several national issues" - certainly did not offer proposed solutions.
    How about adding Category:Running?
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    "Hubad na Bayani, a film or a play. It draws inspiration from the Oblation, a statue of a nude man" - pick one film or play and drop a footnote giving the cite to support it. Also note in the footnote that other sources claim it is the other. Oblation is not the "inspiration" the movie/play is the inspiration. However, the run is named after the statue.
    Please check the Joselito Caparino quote. There is an extra word or words are missing.
    It is unfair to discuss the fig leaf for the runners and not also disclose that Oblation statue is also cast with a fig leaf.
    I found this source which gives the Joselito Caparino quote in Tagalog: http://www.up.edu.ph/~oarmain/conline/archives/conline-news-010606.htm. The PhilStar article, http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=68508, does not have the quote.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    "At the request of the University of the Philippines to celebrate its centennial," - needs to be separately sourced. I highly doubt it.
    I found this AP story: Teves, Oliver (June 18, 2008). "100 Philippine students run naked at university". Fox News (Associated Press). Retrieved May 29, 2011. However, the story quotes the organizer of the run as claiming that the "university's centennial committee" asked for the run. That is different from the University's administration asking for the run. The article should not equate the "centennial committee" with the University. Racepacket (talk) 08:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
    Fn 22 is to the local APO's blog, which is not a reliable source.
    C. No original research:
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    What is reaction of the UP administration to the run and to the criticism from Aquilino Pimentel, Jr.?
    Was this effective as a political protest?
    What is the connection between APO and political protest? Are they politically active other than this run? Has any source suggested there were motives other than expressive political protest at issue here?
    Because it is against the law, how did Manilla stop it, but the other campuses cannot? Is it that they don't really try to stop it? How many campuses participated in 2010?
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    Is this pro-run or pro-APO? It may have a tilt.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    No edit wars.
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    If the photo is deleted, you will have to adjust the article accordingly. I think your fair use rationale would work.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    I am placing the article on hold so that you may address the above noted concerns. Racepacket (talk) 07:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I added Category:Streaking, which I think was more appropriate. I settled for play. Only the AP source says otherwise. Which parts of the Caparino quote are missing? The Oblation was originally fully naked until UP President Bacobo ordered for the addition of the fig. He thought that showing the Oblation's genitals is obscene. Should this be discussed? I think it's too trivial for the run and should be reserved for the article of the Oblation itself.
This (a UP Diliman article) says that the centennial run is part of the celebration program. I think it's enough to clear the doubt that UP requested it. Isn't the centennial committee a part of the university? I don't think it'll be relevant on mentioning "upon the request of the centennial committee" without discussing what is a centennial committee.
Criterion 3 needs more researching. I'll do it by tomorrow or by the day after that (that is if my student life interferes).
How do I make it more neutral? How do I not make it pro-APO if this is pro-APO to begin with?
I'm sorry that I cannot be able to respond swiftly to your concerns. I can no longer edit as immediate as I did in your previous reviews. The first semester at UP begins next week. Moray An Par (talk) 16:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
We are all volunteers, so I understand. However, I may be retiring next week, so do what you can to wrap up the GA review while I am still available to assist you. Many thanks, Racepacket (talk) 03:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

On criterion 3

I tried finding on UP's reaction regarding Pimentel's sentiments against the run but nothing came up. Fn 22 has been replaced. What do you mean by "effective"? Were you asking if it brought about real tangible social change? I doubt we'll ever find references regarding "President Estrada ousted because of naked protesters." UP Manila didn't stop the run. It's the city government. It was stopped because of the complaints of the locals, not because of Pimentel. Moray An Par (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

An effective political protest stimulated wider discussion of the issue and gains sympathy for the protestors' position. Running nude can certainly command public attention, but it may be negative publicity if the focus in on the nudity rather than the cause. I do not know how conservative 21st century Phillipino society is on the question of public nudity. The reader will want to know if this was an effective tactic or just "window dressing" on what would otherwise be viewed as a meaningless college stunt. Are there other protests or acts of civil disobedience on this same causes? Conversely, do groups other than APO resort to public nudity to gain public attention for their protests? Without taking sides, the article could give the reader information as to whether the Oblation Run help awaken public opinion or turned it away from the cause. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 01:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Searching Google with "alpha phi omega" protest philippines -oblation is no luck. Searching major newspapers (Manila Bulletin, Philippine Star, Manila Standard) also gives no info on APO protests other than the Oblation Run. As for the effectivity of the run, I think it is not our duty to assess it but instead give views for and against it. The criticism section pretty much sums up that. AFAIK, and as far as I've searched, only Pimentel has been vocally against it. No clergy, who'd you'd normally expect to be against it, came up. Moray An Par (talk) 15:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I correct that. Something did came up on the clergy. I'll add them up. Moray An Par (talk) 15:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Done. Moray An Par (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Searching for other nude protests in the Philippines is no good. The Oblation Run is pretty much it. Moray An Par (talk) 08:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, I'd change that slightly to every nude run in the Philippines is in some way a copy of the Oblation run, either by APO chapters within UP in which case it is still an Oblation run, outside the UP by an APO chapter where they may or may not rename it or some sort of complete copy.

June 1 reading

I am trying to tie up the remaining items on this review. Please consider:

  • The Joselito Caparino quote is ungrammatical. The only source that I found was in Tagalog. If you have an English source for the quote, please make sure that it is quoted correctly. If you are translating the quote, please note that in the article. Please make sure that the footnote reflects where you really found the quote.
  • I would use "APO members" rather than "APO brothers" - it is more neutral and is easier for readers to understand.
  • The Centennial Run appears to have been coordinated with the centennial committee. It is not clear whether that committee can speak for the whole University in an official capacity, or if it is just a student group. I would therefore change "At the request of the University of the Philippines to celebrate its centennial," to either "To celebrate the University of the Philippines centennial," or "At the request of a committee organizing the celebration of the University of the Philippines centennial," The current wording does not reflect the sources.
  • "The event was attended by senior APO members,"->"The event was observed by senior APO alumni," - may be more accurate. I assume that they were not nude.
  • "APO's national anniversary (March)," - I don't know what this means. Do you mean the anniversary of APO's establishment in the Philippines?
  • "The chapter held a luncheon on its 2010 anniversary instead, in respect of the ban."->"In response to the ban, the chapter held a luncheon on its 2010 anniversary instead a nude run."

On the whole, you have made many improvements to the article, and I hope we can pass it quickly once the above items are addressed. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 21:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

The quote citation has been replaced. I apparently gave the wrong cite. As for the brothers, they have been changed to brothers. I wanted to take note that those who took part were men that's why I used brother. The Centennial Run and the Araneta ban has been reworded. The national anniversary has been clarified. Moray An Par (talk) 01:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, I would prefer brother. The male members of Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines are brothers and the female members are sisters. I think Member would be appropriate only if the gender didn't matter and Members if either it couldn't be determined or if they were of both genders. However, whatever it takes to get to GA.Naraht (talk) 01:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
If you must limit yourself to males, say "male members." Racepacket (talk) 01:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

This article is inherently controversial due to its subject matter. I think we have a balanced presentation of the range of feelings toward the subject. Thank you for all of your hard work and congratulations on another Good Article. Racepacket (talk) 01:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Looking forward to working with you two again sometime in the future. Moray An Par (talk) 02:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Addition of other UP campuses?

How do should we handle the spread of the Oblation Run to other UP campuses (and beyond?). (I think we can get references, I'm more thinking about the structure of the expansion of the article)Naraht (talk) 14:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Fair use candidate from Commons: File:UPD Oblation.jpg

The file File:UPD Oblation.jpg, used on this page, has been deleted from Wikimedia Commons and re-uploaded at File:UPD Oblation.jpg. It should be reviewed to determine if it is compliant with this project's non-free content policy, or else should be deleted and removed from this page. Commons fair use upload bot (talk) 03:18, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Stupid article

MANILA, Dec. 15 – A group of male neophyte student members of the Alpha Phi Omega (APO) chapter of the University of the Philippines (UP)-Diliman in Quezon City made the Oblation Run on Tuesday afternoon throughout the school campus. ... Contrary to popular belief, neophytes are forbidden to run. All those who run are full-pledged members who have volunteered are allowed to run.

— [2]

And I thought sources conflicting each other was new. Moray An Par (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Oblation Run/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 06:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC) Thank you for nominating this article. I am familiar with it. Please fix Neophyte as a disamb. link. No. invalid external links.

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    "Participants are male APO brothers numbering 24 on average.[5]"->"Each year, an average of two dozen male APO members participate at each UP campus.[5]" - avoid "brothers". Is it each campus? Please use active voice.
    "violates the said law."->"violates that law."
    Please reword: "The event was graced by Jejomar Binay," - did he run nude or just watch?
    "it every year on its anniversary, December 16.[1]" - unclear whether you mean the anniversary of APO or the anniversary of the first naked run at Hubad na Bayani?
    Was the Centennial Run on just one campus?
    "the run originates to an unnamed APO brother who ran naked inside the campus to promote"->"the run originated when an unnamed APO member ran naked inside the campus to promote" - was it the campus or the auditorium building?
    "The Oblation Run was defended by Senator" - say where he defended it.
    "it has tackled several national issues"->"it has called attention to several national issues" - certainly did not offer proposed solutions.
    How about adding Category:Running?
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    "Hubad na Bayani, a film or a play. It draws inspiration from the Oblation, a statue of a nude man" - pick one film or play and drop a footnote giving the cite to support it. Also note in the footnote that other sources claim it is the other. Oblation is not the "inspiration" the movie/play is the inspiration. However, the run is named after the statue.
    Please check the Joselito Caparino quote. There is an extra word or words are missing.
    It is unfair to discuss the fig leaf for the runners and not also disclose that Oblation statue is also cast with a fig leaf.
    I found this source which gives the Joselito Caparino quote in Tagalog: http://www.up.edu.ph/~oarmain/conline/archives/conline-news-010606.htm. The PhilStar article, http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=68508, does not have the quote.
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    "At the request of the University of the Philippines to celebrate its centennial," - needs to be separately sourced. I highly doubt it.
    I found this AP story: Teves, Oliver (June 18, 2008). "100 Philippine students run naked at university". Fox News (Associated Press). Retrieved May 29, 2011. However, the story quotes the organizer of the run as claiming that the "university's centennial committee" asked for the run. That is different from the University's administration asking for the run. The article should not equate the "centennial committee" with the University. Racepacket (talk) 08:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
    Fn 22 is to the local APO's blog, which is not a reliable source.
    C. No original research:
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    What is reaction of the UP administration to the run and to the criticism from Aquilino Pimentel, Jr.?
    Was this effective as a political protest?
    What is the connection between APO and political protest? Are they politically active other than this run? Has any source suggested there were motives other than expressive political protest at issue here?
    Because it is against the law, how did Manilla stop it, but the other campuses cannot? Is it that they don't really try to stop it? How many campuses participated in 2010?
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    Is this pro-run or pro-APO? It may have a tilt.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
    No edit wars.
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    If the photo is deleted, you will have to adjust the article accordingly. I think your fair use rationale would work.
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    I am placing the article on hold so that you may address the above noted concerns. Racepacket (talk) 07:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I added Category:Streaking, which I think was more appropriate. I settled for play. Only the AP source says otherwise. Which parts of the Caparino quote are missing? The Oblation was originally fully naked until UP President Bacobo ordered for the addition of the fig. He thought that showing the Oblation's genitals is obscene. Should this be discussed? I think it's too trivial for the run and should be reserved for the article of the Oblation itself.
This (a UP Diliman article) says that the centennial run is part of the celebration program. I think it's enough to clear the doubt that UP requested it. Isn't the centennial committee a part of the university? I don't think it'll be relevant on mentioning "upon the request of the centennial committee" without discussing what is a centennial committee.
Criterion 3 needs more researching. I'll do it by tomorrow or by the day after that (that is if my student life interferes).
How do I make it more neutral? How do I not make it pro-APO if this is pro-APO to begin with?
I'm sorry that I cannot be able to respond swiftly to your concerns. I can no longer edit as immediate as I did in your previous reviews. The first semester at UP begins next week. Moray An Par (talk) 16:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
We are all volunteers, so I understand. However, I may be retiring next week, so do what you can to wrap up the GA review while I am still available to assist you. Many thanks, Racepacket (talk) 03:05, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

On criterion 3

I tried finding on UP's reaction regarding Pimentel's sentiments against the run but nothing came up. Fn 22 has been replaced. What do you mean by "effective"? Were you asking if it brought about real tangible social change? I doubt we'll ever find references regarding "President Estrada ousted because of naked protesters." UP Manila didn't stop the run. It's the city government. It was stopped because of the complaints of the locals, not because of Pimentel. Moray An Par (talk) 04:43, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

An effective political protest stimulated wider discussion of the issue and gains sympathy for the protestors' position. Running nude can certainly command public attention, but it may be negative publicity if the focus in on the nudity rather than the cause. I do not know how conservative 21st century Phillipino society is on the question of public nudity. The reader will want to know if this was an effective tactic or just "window dressing" on what would otherwise be viewed as a meaningless college stunt. Are there other protests or acts of civil disobedience on this same causes? Conversely, do groups other than APO resort to public nudity to gain public attention for their protests? Without taking sides, the article could give the reader information as to whether the Oblation Run help awaken public opinion or turned it away from the cause. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 01:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Searching Google with "alpha phi omega" protest philippines -oblation is no luck. Searching major newspapers (Manila Bulletin, Philippine Star, Manila Standard) also gives no info on APO protests other than the Oblation Run. As for the effectivity of the run, I think it is not our duty to assess it but instead give views for and against it. The criticism section pretty much sums up that. AFAIK, and as far as I've searched, only Pimentel has been vocally against it. No clergy, who'd you'd normally expect to be against it, came up. Moray An Par (talk) 15:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I correct that. Something did came up on the clergy. I'll add them up. Moray An Par (talk) 15:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Done. Moray An Par (talk) 15:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Searching for other nude protests in the Philippines is no good. The Oblation Run is pretty much it. Moray An Par (talk) 08:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, I'd change that slightly to every nude run in the Philippines is in some way a copy of the Oblation run, either by APO chapters within UP in which case it is still an Oblation run, outside the UP by an APO chapter where they may or may not rename it or some sort of complete copy.

June 1 reading

I am trying to tie up the remaining items on this review. Please consider:

  • The Joselito Caparino quote is ungrammatical. The only source that I found was in Tagalog. If you have an English source for the quote, please make sure that it is quoted correctly. If you are translating the quote, please note that in the article. Please make sure that the footnote reflects where you really found the quote.
  • I would use "APO members" rather than "APO brothers" - it is more neutral and is easier for readers to understand.
  • The Centennial Run appears to have been coordinated with the centennial committee. It is not clear whether that committee can speak for the whole University in an official capacity, or if it is just a student group. I would therefore change "At the request of the University of the Philippines to celebrate its centennial," to either "To celebrate the University of the Philippines centennial," or "At the request of a committee organizing the celebration of the University of the Philippines centennial," The current wording does not reflect the sources.
  • "The event was attended by senior APO members,"->"The event was observed by senior APO alumni," - may be more accurate. I assume that they were not nude.
  • "APO's national anniversary (March)," - I don't know what this means. Do you mean the anniversary of APO's establishment in the Philippines?
  • "The chapter held a luncheon on its 2010 anniversary instead, in respect of the ban."->"In response to the ban, the chapter held a luncheon on its 2010 anniversary instead a nude run."

On the whole, you have made many improvements to the article, and I hope we can pass it quickly once the above items are addressed. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 21:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

The quote citation has been replaced. I apparently gave the wrong cite. As for the brothers, they have been changed to brothers. I wanted to take note that those who took part were men that's why I used brother. The Centennial Run and the Araneta ban has been reworded. The national anniversary has been clarified. Moray An Par (talk) 01:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, I would prefer brother. The male members of Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines are brothers and the female members are sisters. I think Member would be appropriate only if the gender didn't matter and Members if either it couldn't be determined or if they were of both genders. However, whatever it takes to get to GA.Naraht (talk) 01:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
If you must limit yourself to males, say "male members." Racepacket (talk) 01:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

This article is inherently controversial due to its subject matter. I think we have a balanced presentation of the range of feelings toward the subject. Thank you for all of your hard work and congratulations on another Good Article. Racepacket (talk) 01:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Looking forward to working with you two again sometime in the future. Moray An Par (talk) 02:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Stupid article

MANILA, Dec. 15 – A group of male neophyte student members of the Alpha Phi Omega (APO) chapter of the University of the Philippines (UP)-Diliman in Quezon City made the Oblation Run on Tuesday afternoon throughout the school campus. ... Contrary to popular belief, neophytes are forbidden to run. All those who run are full-pledged members who have volunteered are allowed to run.

— [3]

And I thought sources conflicting each other was new. Moray An Par (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

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