Talk:Pasoori

Article Lead/first sentence

User:نعم البدل keeps removing referenced translations (angst/conflict) from the article's first sentence and keeps replacing with "troubles" which may be correct but user is unable to reference it. User also keeps removing transliterations in languages are relevant to the subject of the article which is a song. The song uses all 3 languages -- Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu/Shahmukhi -- but User:نعم البدل has unilaterally decided that only Shahmukhi is acceptable to keep in the first sentence and keeps removing the Hindi and Gurmukhi transliterations. Not okay to keep reverting referenced edits instead of discussing things first on Talk Pages. Left a message on user's talk page urging not to engage in Wikipedia:Edit warring and to strive for compromise and consensus. Requesting commentary from User:GorgeCustersSabre about the first sentence before I add the dispute to Wikipedia:Third opinion. Editors may want to review User talk:نعم البدل. Thanks. Priyanka2330 (talk) 23:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

@Priyanka2330: The song is not Hindi. Neither the singers, nor the label or the writers have marked it as Hindi, so calling it a Hindi song or adding the 'Hindi', in itself is wrong[1]. Also you do realise, you've even transliterated it into both Gurmukhi AND Devanagari incorrectly, right? Second of all Punjabi is written in two scripts - Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. One is used in India, while the latter is used in Pakistan. Shahmukhi isn't a language or an alternative name. It has the same importance as Gurmukhi. Again, there I really don't understand why you're replacing the Shahmukhi with Gurmukhi spelling when none of the singers are Indian. Thirdly, Urdu isn't even needed because the song is called Pasoori, which is a Punjabi term, not even a part of Urdu vocabulary [2] and the Urdu lyrics of the song don't even contain that word. Fourthly - I have no idea why you're so against Template:Punjabiterm. نعم البدل (talk) 01:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Priyanka2330: Addendum: Your own reference states that the term Pasoori is Punjabi and also gives Urdu translation for the meaning. نعم البدل (talk) 02:06, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

On the issue of recent changes, I believe that user:Priyanka2330’s changes and his reasons for them make most sense. Best regards, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 08:40, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@GorgeCustersSabre: Sorry, but how? He doesn't even understand that Punjabi is written in two scripts and removed the Shahmukhi and replaced with Gurmukhi, even though the native script of any of the singers is Shahmukhi - the show has literally given the lyrics. And can you please explain why Hindi is even needed at all? Because if we were to add "relevant scripts", than you'd adding A LOT of scripts to that page. نعم البدل (talk) 14:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

My dear friend نعم البدل, I hope you are fine. I was asked to give a third opinion. I read Priyanka2330's rationale, and then I read yours. I know neither of you, and have no axe to grind. I merely favored Priyanka2330's explanation over your own, and stated so. I don't have to add anything further and I don't want to get drawn into a debate. Two editors now disagree with you. We might of course be wrong. But the fact that two unconnected editors have a different opinion to you is something worth reflecting upon. Very best regards to both of you, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 15:49, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@GorgeCustersSabre: And I respect your decision, as I respect his decision for a third opinion. I would just like to know why you feel that his reasons are more valid. However if prefer not to, then that's your choice. نعم البدل (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@GorgeCustersSabre: Thank you for your input. Since the other user continues to disagree, I will add this dispute to Wikipedia:Third opinion shortly. Thank you so much for chiming in. Much appreciated. :) Priyanka2330 (talk) 02:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@نعم البدل I know it's hard, but consider not taking Wikipedia disagreements personally. We're all volunteers here, and all want to add to human knowledge. No one has a vendetta here. Re: your comment that I "don't even understand that Punjabi is written in two scripts," I'd also recommend that you don't make assumptions about what other Wikipedians do and do not know/understand. There's no need for hostility or condescension -- please be respectful and do not make assumptions about other editors. We have both tried to help you understand why it makes sense to keep to Gurumukhi + Shahmukhi + Hindi there but you are not open to consensus/compromise. It cannot be your way or the highway -- again, that's not Wikipedia functions. I will be adding those back to the lead sentence tomorrow, in addition to translations "angst and conflict" (because those were referenced translations). I have nothing against keeping the Punjabi Term Infobox at all -- thanks for adding it. Additional unsubstantiated/unreferenced reverts from you will lead to your persistent reverts being added to the Noticeboard at Wikipedia:Edit warring where Admins will need to get involved. It might be best to not allow things to escalate and strive for compromise. Thanks. Priyanka2330 (talk) 02:11, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@Priyanka2330:, I have no quarrels with you personally or anyone. You make a very good point, that we are all volunteers, I agree. Having said that, your replies with threating escalation, rather than to try and actually explain your reasons, is not good enough either. My concern is your thought process in regards to you edit - because I found them to be quite unusual. I apologise, if my comment sounded condescending, but I didn't mean it to be. When I said that I assumed that you didn't know Punjabi was written in two scripts, was because you changed the Punjabi that was in Shahmukhi, replaced it with Gurmukhi, and and didn't even mention Shahmukhi, which is a weird edit. Rather you labeled the Shahmukhi as Urdu, even though, it isn't even Urdu. If you knew that Punjabi was written in multiple scripts and really wanted add the Gurmukhi, why would you not just add a slash and then add something like Gurmukhi: [text]. (See: Kartarpur corridor)? Because that would cover both scripts AND languages - Urdu & Punjabi. But even past that, Gurmukhi wasn't even necessary because Template:Punjabiterm was already there. That was the whole point of the template, to declutter intros, and still mention any relevant information, like scripts, pronunciation, transliterations etc. Gurmukhi isn't even relevant here anyways! Neither the singers, nor the writers, nor the song is related to Indian Punjabi. Also, please make me understand this, you stated that Hindi was one of Pasoori's language, hence why you included it - that is not true at all. Nowhere and no one has stated that.

P.s if you do decide to revert my edit, then I will escalate this myself. Also please don't act like you're entire dispute is based on the translation of the term "Pasoori", even though I did provide a link to a Punjabi dictionary explaining the meaning of the term, because it isn't. It's the scripts - you are unnecessarily complicating the entire introduction.

نعم البدل (talk) 02:52, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

P.s.s: We have both tried to help you understand why it makes sense to keep to Gurumukhi + Shahmukhi + Hindi there but you are not open to consensus/compromise.

In what way exactly? You stated that "additional languages are added to make it more inclusive". Yes and for that, Wikipedia is available in multiple languages. People are free to translate or create a page regarding the same article in different languages - that doesn't mean you start adding translations in multiple languages or transliterations in multiple scripts. As you will be aware, this song went viral in a lot of countries - should we start adding transliterations of scripts of those countries too? Typically on Wiki articles, one language and one transliteration suffices, and it suffices here too. نعم البدل (talk) 03:11, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@Priyanka2330: I tend to agree more with @نعم البدل and don't see any need to include the title inscribed in Gurmukhi (or Devanagari) script. Quite simply because these scripts are not used much in the country of origin of the song ref [3] The context of the song also does call for this (e.g. a religious / minority / linguistical context where both scripts or one of these script would be more preferable). The song has apparently also been quite popular in Bangladesh but that too would not justify including the title in Bengali alphabet. Other Wikipedia pages on Punjabi songs [4] tend to either not include Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi at all or only include either Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi mostly based on the country of origin. Examples: Tere_Tille_Ton , Chitta_Kukkar, Mundian To Bach Ke. Besides that, there does not seem to be a consistent usage of Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi always being used on the same page. Mrabcx (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Priyanka2330: @نعم البدل: Similarly, I don't really see any need for having the Punjabi term infobox. All other songs on the category page [5] do not have such a box. Other Punjabi related articles on e.g. Bhangra_(dance) or Bhangra (music) do not contain such boxes either. Pasoori is a contemporary song and the interest may diminish in the next few months; linking it too strongly with Punjabi culture or heritage, in contrast to other songs, is therefore wrong. Further on, the song does contain lyrics in Urdu and the songs has not been limited to Punjabi speaking community or Punjabi culture. Mrabcx (talk) 07:57, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mrabcx: I had recently created the template so that it could be added to all Punjabi-related articles, similar to Arabic, Chinese, Japanese etc, regardless whether Indian or Pakistan - so that both Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi could be included without cluttering the introduction - but if you feel it's unnecessary then I'd be willing to remove it. نعم البدل (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• Guys, I fell upon this discussion while navigating through the article history. Just FYI, Hindi and Gurmukhi scripts aren't used by Pakistan (either at a local or official level). Since there's no evidence to suggest that the song was composed or lyrically written using either of those scripts, or perhaps that the artists who performed the song use either of those writing styles, it will be unnecessary to warrant a translation in either as it goes against MOS:LEADLANG. Furthermore, the WP:INDICSCRIPT guideline actively discourages the use of Indic scripts across Wikipedia articles. Given the established precedent, I see no compelling reason why this article would be treated any differently. Hope that solves the issue. Regards, Mar4d (talk) 11:49, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mar4d: Thanks for the input, as I said earlier, the song hasn't been labelled Hindi anywhere, nor has the use of Gurmukhi been implied. نعم البدل (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

• User:Mar4d has better explained the policy with regard to adding local scripts. However I'd like to add to the discussion about this attitude of pushing Indian POV and adding India in credits which we've been seeing since long on Wikipedia. The language used in above discussion is totally in bad taste and is yet another show of the same attitude.

"We have both tried to help you understand why it makes sense to keep to Gurumukhi + Shahmukhi + Hindi there but you are not open to consensus/compromise. It cannot be your way or the highway -- again, that's not Wikipedia functions. I will be adding those back to the lead sentence tomorrow, in addition to translations "angst and conflict" (because those were referenced translations). I have nothing against keeping the Punjabi Term Infobox at all -- thanks for adding it. Additional unsubstantiated/unreferenced reverts from you will lead to your persistent reverts being added to the Noticeboard at Wikipedia:Edit warring where Admins will need to get involved. It might be best to not allow things to escalate and strive for compromise. Thanks."

An article in The Express Tribune recently also discussed all these things and why it is not okay to push India here. I hope the users involved in the discussion will reconsider their stance. Thanks and regards! USaamo ^(t@lk) 11:42, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: nice work.

North8000 (talk) 16:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks!! Priyanka2330 (talk) 21:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Pasoori Official Cover.webp

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:21, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Template:Arijit Singh

Mar4d and نعم البدل hi! Noticed that Template:Arijit Singh is added to this article under External links. Is this necessary and/or standard practice for any article that mentions Singh? Thanks for your time and help. Hope you both are doing well! Priyanka2330 (talk) 22:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, hope you're doing well too! I don't really see why it needs to be included. The article is about Pasoori, and should really be limited to the original (Coke Studio version). The T-Series version should realistically be a separate article with minimal mention in this article, imo. نعم البدل (talk) 00:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Just a note of caution that not every track is necessarily noteworthy of an article, unless there is significant coverage in third-party sources of course. This is particularly true in the case of remakes, which are usually subsumed under the main article on the song when it comes to Wikipedia. In any case, WP:NSONGS should always be consulted prior to creating an article. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 01:46, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Noted! نعم البدل (talk) 18:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree, I was thrown off when I saw the template at the bottom of the article and I also don't think it belongs in this article, but Mar4d's point below is well-taken too. No harm in leaving it in. Priyanka2330 (talk) 20:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

• Priyanka2330 Thanks for your message. The template was added more for a navigational purpose, as anyone browsing his songs may fall upon this article and may want to see his other articles too. As far as I know, it is standard practice to include artist templates at the bottom of song articles, including those artists who record a remix of a song. Ultimately, it is the editor’s discretion, but I don’t see any problem with leaving it down there given it barely has any consequence on the length or space of the article. Mar4d (talk) 01:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

  True, I'm not really against it or for it, so I guess it can stay! I will make some edits about the Pasoori Nu section, feel free to proofread it. نعم البدل (talk) 18:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

  thanks! while i don't think there's really a need for this template in this article, there's also no harm in keeping it, as you stated. :) I just wanted to make sure it wasn't added by accident or something. Priyanka2330 (talk) 20:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)