Talk:Pierre de la Rue

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Challenging the detail of the history

In the history of Pierra de la Rue, the article states that

"Previous biographies of La Rue place him in Siena, Italy between 1483 and 1485; however it has been determined that the "La Rue" in the records there was a different singer. Pierre de La Rue probably never went to Italy, making him one of the few prominent Franco-Flemish composers of this generation never to travel there."

There is however no reference or footnote that allows this fact to be cross checked. As this is a potentially large shift, could the reference and/or material from where this new information came from please be cited?

Kiwifruitbat (talk) 21:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The most easily accessible reference containing that bit is Honey Meconi's article on La Rue in the online New Grove. I'll put a cite there if you want. It's at the end of the first paragraph under "Life" in this section (subscription access required). Antandrus (talk) 22:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article for the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a strong B; it is primarily MOS-related issues that hold it back from higher ratings. Read my detailed review on the comments page; questions and comments can be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 21:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With Pierre de La Rue, unlike most Renaissance composers, there is a dedicated biography in print, recently written (the one by Honey Meconi that I used to write the article). I never got around to finishing: I meant to write more about his music, like I did for Josquin, with more detail about individual pieces. While it is true that GA/FA might want more inline cites, I thought they'd be pointless since they're all from the same two places (the Meconi article in Grove, and the Meconi book) -- why not just one cite per paragraph? -- but that's the way I write them. Looks like the formatting has been mangled a bit since I worked on it last; I'm not sure how to format those audio samples. Antandrus (talk) 22:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One cite per paragraph is usually fine. My experience with GA and inline cites is to expect some pushback for any paragraph-ending sentences that are not "obvious". (Some reviewers seem to short-cut and complain if a paragraph does not end with a superscript; I hate that, and try to put in things like sentences leading into the next paragraph to force the discussion.) I can take a look at making the audio be right; I've found that {{multi-listen start}} and friends do the best job, even if you only have one clip. Magic♪piano 22:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"de La Rue" vs "de la Rue"

In the Grove Dictionary of Music's entry for La Rue, two references are given, both using the form "Pierre de la Rue":

Pierre de la Rue: Opera omnia, ed. N.S.J. Davison, J.E. Kreider and T.H. Keahey, CMM, xcvii/1– (1989–)
H. Meconi: Style and Authenticity in the Secular Music of Pierre de la Rue (diss., Harvard U., 1986)

These are authoritative sources, as far as I know. Shouldn't the article's title be changed accordingly? 201.53.236.48 (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support, there is no reason to capitalize "la" if "de" is not capitalized. A redirect exists. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Grove always capitalises "L", unless they're giving his whole name, in which case they're inconsistent (the majority case is "Pierre de la Rue" but you can find numerous examples of "Pierre de La Rue" using the 'advanced search' function). They refer to him within text, after initial mention, as "La Rue," without exception (and alphabetise him that way). Looks like Honey Meconi, the leading author on the composer, does it that way too. We can move it if you want. Antandrus (talk) 13:59, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I believe it's usual to capitalize the feminine article "la" when referring to him by the surname only (La Rue), but not so when reproducing the whole name. I noticed that the French Wikipedia article also uses the form "de La Rue", but looking at that page's history it can be seen that it was a translation from this article and the translator may have just stuck to what was in use here. 201.53.240.18 (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go ahead and move the article. That reasoning makes sense. Antandrus (talk) 17:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Pierre de la Rue/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Pierre de la Rue: 2008-11-30==

This is an assessment of article Pierre de la Rue by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

OK

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

OK

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

OK

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

Presumed complete. Should be separated.

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

OK

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

No images. Some audio.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

Article is referenced, with inline cites; not enough for GA/FA review.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

lead is short; footer material is out of order, and audio needs formatting

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD)
Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT)
Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE)

===Summary=== A remarkably robust biography of a Renaissance figure. His movements seem to be remarkably well-covered for someone from this time. His musical style is well described. His works (presumably complete, but stated as such) are listed; there are enough that the list should be separated to another article.

The article has no images; something should be added. There are audio clips, but the footer section, in addition to sections out-of-order (per WP:LAYOUT) needs specific work to properly display the clips. The article is well-referenced, and has a fair number of inline cites; more may be needed for GA/FA consideration. The article's lead is short for an article of this length.

Article is B-class; it is mostly MOS-related issues that hold it back. Magic♪piano 21:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 17:22, 30 July 2011 (UTC). Substituted at 03:00, 30 April 2016 (UTC)