Talk:Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige

Untitled

Shouldn't this article be moved to Reference Work of Place Names in South Tyrol, following WP:UE? -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       21:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd have thought "Reference List" might be a better English rendering. --Opbeith 12:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting dates

If the Prontuario was published in 1916, how can it be "part of the Italianization process initiated by the fascists", who did not came to power until 1922? --Pedro Aguiar 17:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Movements don't usually come to power without having been in existence beforehand. For a bit of background you could look at the article on Ettore Tolomei. --Opbeith 12:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding a simple "later" clears up the matter. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 21:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Bias

This article is written as if by a separatist looking for reasons to have conflicts. The whole methodology section is full of b.s. This just completes the ignorant POV that everything in Alto Adige is invented Italian. In fact, many of the German names are inventions based on Roman/Italic names in the first place. Toblach was originally a Germanization of Duplago. You guys crack me up.

Methodology

Somebody who reads Italian should go through the Introduction of the Prontuario and summarize the methodology that Tolomei used (or claimed to have used). The next step would be a critique of the methodology based on published sources (no WIkipedia:Original research please). For example, the work of Bartaletti might be relevant:

• F. BARTALETTI, Geografia, toponomastica e identità culturale: il caso del Sudtirolo, in “Miscellanea di storia delle esplorazioni XXVII”, Genova. 20021, pp. 271-314.

 Andreas  ^(T) 01:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I have modified the methodology section according to the preface of the prontuario, and included the criticisms moved by Kühebacher. I intend to add Bartaletti's critique next. Pcassitti (talk) 11:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Innichen

The history of the name San Candido for the town (not the church) of Innichen has to be virified by sources. One source sais that the original name was Aguntica [1]. Naming villages after the saint of the church was one of the ideas of Tolomeo.  Andreas  ^(T) 16:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Italianization programme

This paragraph does not belong here because most of its content is not related to the Prontuario.  Andreas  ^(T) 19:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

True, the italianization article refers to this article, but this is wrong. This information belongs to the italianization article or to a new article to be entitled Italianization of South Tyrol. The prontuario was part of the italianization campaign, and not vice versa. I will be less bold this time, and leave some time for discussion before I proceed.  Andreas  ^(T) 21:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

You can be bold and create the Italianization of South Tyrol article - but delete such a large part without copying it to a more appropriate article or creating an article on its own for it - in my view - is not helpful or improving the article. --noclador (talk) 23:53, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Explanation requested

I read the changes made with this revert but the edit summary didn't explain the reasons behind them (by the way there are also typos like "Measures for the Alto Adige").--Supparluca 09:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Luca; 3 reasons for my revert:

Supparluca, please!--Supparluca 10:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

1. Südtirol was commonly used even before 1900; some examples:

• Friedrich Engels "Po und Rhein" March 1859 published by Franz Duncker, Berlin 1859: das deutsche Bundesgebiet in Südtirol,
• Friedrich Engels "Die Schlacht von Solferino" in "Das Volk" Nr. 10, July 9th, 1859 aus Südtirol
• K. C. von Leonhard und H. G. Bronn "Neues Jahrbuch für Mineralogie, Geologie und Paläontologie" Stuttgart 1852 Süd-Tyrol
• Joseph Alexander Helfert "Geschichte Oesterreichs vom Ausgange des Wiener October-aufstandes 1848" published by G. E. Schulze, 1870, Süd-Tyrol
• Eugene Francis "Feldzüge des Prinzen Eugen von Savoyen" published by "Abtheilung für Kriegsgeschichte des k.k. Kriegs-Archives. 1878, Süd-Tyrol
• "Stenographischer Bericht über die Verhandlungen der Deutschen consituirenden Nationalversammlung" 1848 (transcript of the German parliament 1848) uses Süd-Tyrol
• August Karl Eduard Baldamus "Naumannia - Journal für die Ornithologie" published by Deutsche Ornithologen-Verein 1857, Süd-Tyrol
• Westermanns Monatshefte April 1857, Braunschweig Süd-Tyrol
• Friedrich Giehne “Zwei Jahre österreichischer Politik” Süd-Tyrol
• Berthold Klein „Meran in Süd-Tyrol als Aufenthaltsort für Leidende” published by E. Trewendt, 1851 Süd-Tyrol
• “Neuestes Conversations-lexicon” Wien 1828 Süd-Tyrol
• “Sitzungsberichte der kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften” Wien 1858 Süd-Tirol
• Karl Joseph Liborius Schmidt „Jus Primae Noctis: Eine geschichtliche Untersuchung“ published by Herder, 1881 Süd-Tirol
• Heinrich Noë “Bilder aus Süd-tirol und von den Ufern des Gardasees” published J. Lindauer, 1899 Süd-Tirol
• “Statistische Monatschrift” by Statistische Zentralkommission, Austria published by Hölder, 1875 Süd-Tirol; and so on and on and on…

the law forbidding the name Tirol (August 23rd, 1923) explicitly forbade also the use of the names: "Südtirol", "Südtiroler", "Deutsch-Südtirol" and variations thereof; the province of Bolzano only became active on January 1st, 1927 and until 1947 the term Alto Adige was not even an official name (Regione Venezia Tridentina was the official name) therefore removing of "South Tyrol" is wrong and replacing it by "Alto Adige" double wrong.

2. "many have been entirely invented." is correct and it is a fact that must be stated. "entirely new names were introduced." does withhold that information.

3. your crusade to remove South Tyrol from everywhere in wikipedia is annoying and historically wrong; the term Südtirol has been in unofficial use since at least 1815 (the first document with Südtyrol dates from this year) and what name we use for a place in 2000 does not determine what name we should use for the same place in 1900 or say in 1400 (and also not the other way around). Therefore even as we use now province of Bolzano for the historical articles we can and should use South Tyrol. --noclador (talk) 19:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I still don't understand your changes. Just a few examples:

• "place names in the province of Bolzano-Bozen (also called Alto Adige)" -> "place names in Alto Adige (South Tyrol)"

Why do you link to Province of Bolzano, which is a redirect? And I put the clarification "(also called Alto Adige)" just because the reader could ask why the article title is "Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige" instead of "Prontuario dei nomi locali della provincia di Bolzano".

• "as it became the basis for the official place and district names in the province." -> "as it became the basis for the official place and district names in the southern part of the historical region Tyrol."

"Official place names": so we are talking about an (official) province, not an (unofficial) historical region. And you can't use the wikilink to Tyrol because it's a disambiguation page (in fact it's a redirect to a disambiguation page).

• "and in 1906 the "Archivio per l'Alto Adige". His intention was to create the impression that the southern part of Tyrol had originally been" -> "and in 1906 the "Archivio per l'Alto Adige". His intention was to create the impression that South Tyrol had originally been"

In 1906 there was the County of Tyrol: North Tyrol, East Tyrol and the province of Bolzano didn't exist because Tyrol was united, and anyway the southern part of the county wasn't called "South Tyrol" in English as far as I know.

• "("Measures for Alto Adige")" -> "("Measures for the Alto Adige")"

Why?

• "monument from the Walther Square in Bolzano" -> "monument from the Walther Square in Bozen"

Why?

• "Increasing of Carabinieri troops in the province [...] Increase military garrisons in the province" -> "Increasing of Carabinieri troops (in the province) [...] Increase military garrisons in Alto Adige"

Why?

1. Those sources are in German, and they use the names "Süd-Tyrol" and "Süd-Tirol", not "Südtirol". But anyway I didn't remove the name "Südtirol" from this article, did I? I didn't replace the name "South Tyrol" with the name "Alto Adige" either.

2. "Invented" clearly isn't the right word, because every name is invented. The other version is also correct but it has a more impartial tone.

3. No comment.--Supparluca 10:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

1. What is the difference between them?

2. If every place name has been invented, how can the term "invented" have a partial tone? It must then be a most impartial term, describing reality of nothing less than ALL places. There are most definitely differences between a place name coming naturally by common use into existence, and the way many Italian place names in South Tyrol have been created out of nothing at the desk and in the mind of a single Professore. Thus, "invented" has an impartial tone, since it describes a historical fact, the fact of many Italian place names being simply invented, distinguishing them sufficiently from all the other natural ones.

3 Why no comment? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Because I usually don't reply to absurd accusations, as you have experienced first-hand.--Supparluca 08:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

So, do you object to the reasons I gave for my changes? Can I reinstate them?--Supparluca 10:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll reinstate my edit tomorrow or the following day.--Supparluca 10:35, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

1. You certainly did remove South Tyrol from the article: there were 8 South Tyrol in the article before your edits and afterwards 1.

2. Even the RAI states "nel "creare" nomi del tutto nuovi" (creating entirely new names) - invented is the right word, because Tolomei excelled at that. Also the people in the province (not even the Südtiroler Freiheit) do object to the historic Italian names (about 200), but they object to the inventions by Tolomei (i.e. the old Italian name of the Dreisprachenspitze: Cima delle Tre Lingue suddenly became Cima Garibaldi).

3. no, you will no reinstate your edits, because they do not improve the article, are contentious and in regards to the 32 punti you absolutely must not change the text of a historical source! (so no changing from Alto Adige to the province, because that is a falsification of the source text!) --noclador (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

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