Talk:Ralph Benatzky

Jewish? Evaluating sources.

Someone needs to prove this person was of significant "Czech" heritage despite his surname and place of birth. It's possible given his birth name he was, though not enough information is present to conclude this. 141.211.251.69 00:49, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If anyone had even analyzed the source used to categorize the man who himself said he wasn't Jewish, you'd notice it says "Many of the works of Paul Abraham, Ralph Benatzky, Leo Fall, Leon Jessel, Emmerich Kalman, Oscar Straus, and others retain their place in the repertory of provincial German theaters" and only through the logic of natural sentence flow do we assume it refers to the Jewish composers of Germany from the preceding sentence "Numerous Jewish composers of hundreds of German operettas disappeared from the stage during the Third Reich, only to reappear with a vengeance after the war." No where does it explicitly state "Ralph Benatzky is Jewish" It only says his music reappeared in German theaters. Everyones assuming the unqualified author of this material knows what he's implying in his sentence logic, but does he?

I can't find anything on wikipedia that states what to do if two sources directly contradict eachother. It must be on here though, so can someone direct me? Either way, these sources don't contradict eachother because the first doesn't even make a solid point. It's bad to assume. 141.213.209.234 02:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The quotation is clear enough, especially as all the other composers mentioned were Jewish. To deny this seems to me like an abuse of WP:NOR. The Encyclopaedia Judaica evidence is even clearer. There is an article about Benatzky. True, the encyclopaedia has a few articles about non-Jews, but these are clearly marked with a ° symbol, and his isn't. Further, he is included in a list of Jewish musicians in the article Musicians. If there are sources that state that something is true and others that deny it, it cannot be right to opt to accept the latter. This is meant to be the sum of all human knowledge, including uncertainty. - Brownlee 19:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOR states "Articles may not contain any unpublished arguments, ideas, data, or theories; or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position." Mind explaining how that applies to the fact that your source doesn't explicitly state Ralph Benatzky is Jewish?

"If there are sources that state that somethign is true and others that deny it, it cannot be right to opt to accept the latter"

So, why is it right to accept the former? A source states Ralph Benatzky wrote in his own diary that he and Franz Lehar were not Jewish. Furthermore, a published non-fiction book states the same. How can these be dismissed? It is impossible for someone to be "not Jewish" and "Jewish" at the same time. One of the sources has to be wrong, so why are we placing more value on the ones provided by you? I'm removing the categories and the entry on the list but keeping the statement that says some places "imply" Benatzky is Jewish. 141.213.55.9 21:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Where is the "correct procedure" for dealing with conflicting sources outlined again?

[Origin of False Identity] Different Drummers: Jazz in the Culture of Nazi Germany By Michael H. Kater

Pg 43, bottom paragraph

"Ralph Benatzky, for instance, a German composer of operetta and popular song, who had protested to the authorities already against the libel of a Jewish identity in 1933, was falsely documented in 1935 as being a Jew. The second edition [of the book in question] corrected this mistake."

OK, I have noted this ref. But it would violate WP:NOR to assume that then other sources relied on this one; they may well have other evidence.--20.138.246.89 17:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh God. I see WP:RS applies in some cases but not in others. 141.211.120.109 22:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

This is complete nonsense. There are conflicting reliable sources, and it would be wrong to deny this.--20.138.246.89 10:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

And yet, you're apt to deny the fact that Tadeusz Kantor's father was not Jewish by reverting to his article saying "born in a Polish-Jewish family." There are times where your argument is justified, I agree, but in this case it's really really hard to see any justification for these reverts. Why is this link http://artists-in-residence.com/ljlehrman/articles/aufbau11.html not *some random website* like on the Kantor page and why is it reliable enough to compete with three other sources which directly and unambiguously state Ralph Benatzky is not Jewish..one even telling why he was THOUGHT to be Jewish?? Furthermore, you didn't answer the question on TALK:Tadeusz Kantor 141.213.57.22 19:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I weighed in at Talk:Tadeusz Kantor when a third opinion was requested, and I was pointed here also. Like in that article, I have no knowledge of the subject. I can say as a general rule, however, that when conflicting reliable sources exist, an artice should mention the fact and describe the conflict, if the conflicted point is relevant. If a majority consensus exists at the same time as the conflict, then the consensus should be mentioned as well as the conflict.

I'm neutral on the relevance of whether someone is Jewish. The experts on the subject of this article are better qualified to judge than I am. However, if it is relevant, and sources disagree on that point, then the disagreement should be mentioned and the sources cited. As a reader, I would want to know of any controversy associated with the subject. -Amatulic 21:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I suppose if this article was much longer, then it would be an interesting side-note to mention how he was maliciously listed falsely as a Jew. However, this cannot be added if people still reject the book I listed above as being correct, and continue adding Benatzky to lists of Jews. Accordingly, there's no way to come to a conclusion. Because some place calls Benatzky a Jew, he will forever be listed as one on wikipedia despite so many weblinks and books saying this is wrong. I have emailed the man who wrote the page that says Benatzky is Jewish, and asked him for a reference, and presented him with the conflicting evidence. If he does concede that he was mistaken and even does change his page, it will be argued that Benatzky has an article on the Jewish Encyclopedia, and that that MUST mean that he is Jewish and not simply that he has a relevant relationship with Jews. Therefore, I see there as being no way to convince 20.138 and reach a conclusion. We will forever be spreading the wrong information. For some reason, the Tadeusz Kantor page should solely rely on WP:RS and dismiss the place that says Kantor's father is not a Jew as *some random website* but all the information presented on here against Ralph Benatzky being a Jew is not "reliable enough" and *some random website* is more reliable --- moreso enough to include Benatzky on lists of Jews instead of just mentioning the conflict as it is done on this article.

My view is, if a place states why and how someone was mistakenly labeled as Jewish..like the links provided on Tadeusz Kantor and Ralph Benatzky, it is pointless to keep mentioning them as "once thought of to be Jewish" unless that fact has very significant impact on their lives. It might in the Ralph Benatzky case (since he was potentially persecuated), but it certainly doesn't in the Kantor case - some German lexicon's mistaken assumption does not merit inclusion on wikipedia. 141.211.251.70 06:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

If both claims are published by reliable sources then both need to be presented in the article if it's also not disqualified by wp:undue. Comments please on the reliability of the sources. -- Jeandré, 2008-04-12t12:03z

Jewish

New Grove.

The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, art. Vol. art, §5: 1806–1945: (v) 1934–45 (2nd edition ed.). Vienna. 2001. The Anschluss of March 1938, therefore, reflects not a radical change, but a logical conclusion to interwar politics. Jews were removed from musical life and fled if they could. Nothing symbolized the ironies inherent in the myth of Vienna's musical culture and its relationship to modern politics better than the embarrassing necessity faced by the Nazis with respect to the music of Johann Strauss. The baptismal records in the Stephansdom had to be falsified in order to prevent the operettas and waltzes of Strauss, the epitome of local greatness, from being banned.
Among the émigrés were the aged orchestra leader Arnold Rosé; the operetta composer Benatzky; the pianists Serkin, Steuermann, and Paul Wittgenstein; the composers Marcel Rubin (to Mexico), Ernst Toch, Karl Weigl, Paul A. Pisk, Wellesz, Korngold, Zemlinsky and Emmerich Kálmán; the scholars and critics D.J. Bach, Hugo Botstiber, O.E. Deutsch, Karl Geiringer, Hans Gál, Paul Stefan, Eric Werner and Hans F. Redlich; and a staggering number of performers and writers, ranging from Mosco Carner to Rudolf Kolisch, the librettist Alfred Grünwald, Lotte Lehmann, Bernhard Paumgartner, Marcel Prawy, Josef Reitler, Robert Starer and Elisabeth Schumann. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

[Benatzky definitely Jewish] [lists Benatzky as among the Jew who fled the Nazis]

This recent source obviously uses up-to-date information.--Habashia (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Lehrman.

Lehrman, Leonard J. (1996-02-16 or June 1996-06). "A Symposium in Seattle: Jewish Opera". AUFBAU 62:4 or The Opera Journal 29:2. pp. p. 13 or pp. 56-61. Retrieved 2008-04-12. Numerous Jewish composers of hundreds of German operettas disappeared from the stage during the Third Reich, only to reappear with a vengeance after the war. Many of the works of Paul Abraham, Ralph Benatzky, [...] retain their place in the repertory of provincial German theaters, even though we may never have heard of most of them over here. {{cite web}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Encyclopedia Judaica.

Cite?

Not Jewish

Kater.

Kater, Michael H. (1997). "3. Persecuted and exiled Jewish and anti-Nazi musicians". The Twisted Muse: Musicians and Their Music in the Third Reich. Oxford University Press US. pp. pp. 84-85. ISBN 0195096207. After reading that he was a Jew, Ralph Benatzky, the composer of popular operattas protested to vigorously that Goebbels himself became upset.⁵³ The mistakes, including many omissions, were so embarrassing that Brückner and his associate were forced to publish a revised edition in 1936, tho it too was faulty {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); |pages= has extra text (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)

Kater, Michael H. Different Drummers: Jazz in the Culture of Nazi Germany. pp. p. 43, bottom paragraph. Ralph Benatzky, for instance, a German composer of operetta and popular song, who had protested to the authorities already against the libel of a Jewish identity in 1933, was falsely documented in 1935 as being a Jew. The second edition [of the book in question] corrected this mistake. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |origmonth=, |chapterurl=, |origdate=, and |month= (help)

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