Talk:Remington M1867

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Rewriting history[edit]

This is an extremely Norwegian-centric article, bordering on an attempt to rewrite history. The Norwegian armed forces didn't do anything on their own here since Sweden and Norway were in a union under the king of Sweden following Denmark-Norway's defeat in the final years of the Napoleonic wars. The decision to buy the Remington rolling block rifle was based on a suggestion by a joint Swedish-Norwegian arms commission and the rifle was ordered for both the armed forces of Sweden and those of Norway, in both cases with the approval of the same man, the king of "The United Kingdom of Sweden and Norway" as it was known then, and with the same designation for the rifle, Model 1867. And yes the caliber was indeed 12.17 mm. Remington made 10,000 complete rifles plus 20,000 actions for Sweden (the actions were used for converting earlier muzzle loading rifles of the same caliber to rolling block breech loaders, the converted rifles being designated "Model 1860/67") while two Swedish manufacturers made large quantities of both rifles and carbines under license from Remington. In Sweden the Remington was eventually replaced by Mauser-designed bolt action rifles and carbines, the m/1894 carbine and the m/1896 rifle, after which large quantities of the Remington were sold on the civilian market, becoming a popular rifle among moose hunters.

So IMO the article should be rewritten to include information abouth both the Norwegian and the Swedish models of the Remington rolling block and the title should be changed to "Swedish-Norwegian model 1867 Remington", but rewriting the article and changing the title probably won't go home well in some revisionist circles in Norway... Allan Akbar (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Since no-one else felt like doing it I've done it myself. The article is now neutral and historically correct, and also includes information about Swedish versions of the M1867. Allan Akbar (talk) 13:07, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Dimensions problems, Norwegian units[edit]

In making an edit, WegianWarrior writes: May I suggest a reading of the main source for this article? It states "4 decimal linjer", and measurements of the weapons and ammo reveals 12.17 mm (remember; pre 1905, aka union).

Several comments:
  • Norway and Sweden may have shared a king from 1814 to 1905; but they never shared a system of measurements in that time period until they both switched to metric, right around the time this weapon was being developed.
  • I'm not going to go out and buy some book to make the point, if you have it, maybe you can give specific quotes from it giving the dimensions in millimeters.
    • Even if it says "4 decimal linjer" that doesn't prove your point.
  • The picture in this article, from Det kgl norske Artilleris Aarsberetning dated 1867, says pretty much the same thing, "Maalene i decimale Linier". You just have to be smart enough to understand what that means.
    • The numbers in that drawing are indeed given in lines and decimal fractions of a line. They are "decimal lines" because of that decimal subdivision below the unit. For example (my eyes might not be good enough to get all of these exactly right), the drawing lists the diameter of the bullet as 4.021 lines, the diameter of the casing as 4.45 lines, and the diameter of the shoulder of the casing as 5.11 lines.
    • In other words, these are still "decimal lines" whether or not the lines themselves are decimal fractions of a foot.
Now let's get back to that "union" nonsense. Your figures would also be wrong for Swedish lines. Why? Because the Swedish foot was a much different size from the Norwegian foot:
  • Norway: 12 lines per thumb, 12 thumbs per foot, foot = 313.74 mm (perhaps a definition of the fot in the time period we are talking about, or at least an official, conventional conversion factor), a typical Northern Europe foot considerably longer than the English foot.
  • Sweden: 10 lines per thumb, 10 thumbs per foot, foot = 296.9 mm, much smaller than the Norwegian foot and smaller than the English foot of 304.8 mm.
An additional factor: There is absolutely no mention of anything in any of the Wikipedia ammunition articles about any 12.17 mm ammunition. Something that large would probably have been noted, whereas another 9 mm variant might slip by.
Your 12.17 mm corresponds to 5.59 Norwegian lines, 5.75 English lines, 5.39 French lines, and 4.10 Swedish lines (of 1/100 Swedish foot). Note that 4.10 is not one of the numbers which appears in the drawings of this ammunition.
  • Therefore 12.17 mm would be incorrect for those Swedish lines as well.
  • Furthermore, if for the sake of argument the Norwegian foot were subdivided into 100 lines, this would only be 3.88 of those (probably phantom) "linier".
The book from which the drawings are taken is written in Norwegian, not Swedish. The book cited as a reference also looks likely to be Norwegian, not Swedish: Hanevik, Karl Egil (1998). Norske Militærgeværer etter 1867.
  • Consequently, had either been using a Swedish foot decimally subdivided into 100 lines, rather than a Norwegian foot duodecimally subdivided into 144 lines, that would most likely be noted.
Gene Nygaard 14:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First things first. I've noticed on rereading that my edit summary came across as a bit crass - I'm sorry about that. To your points though:

  • Norway and Sweden had a lot more in common than a lot of people realise today - among other things an agrement that the armed forces should use the same weapons, or failing that, weapons that used the same ammunition. Thus my comment on the union.
  • Yes, I have the book in question - it was my main (but not only) source as I wrote the article in the first place. I'll quoute the relevant passages further on.
  • It is quite clear that the source - and the Det kgl norske Artilleris Aarsberetning of 1867 (a copy of which I have at work, but not here at home) - means 1/10th of an inch when they talk about 'decimale linjer' (which makes perfect sence, seing as deci tends to mean ten - ref desimeter (1/10th of a meter)).
  • Don't get to confused over the apparant mismatch between the kaliber of the barrel, the bullet and the common name on the weapon - it's always that way, espesially when you have uncoated lead bullet. For a more recent sample, take the 7.92mm german Kar98k - which in service withthe german armed forces was called 8mm. See sources qouted below to see why this is relevant here.
  • All surviving rifles in original configuration has a caliber of 12.17 mm, alloving for tolerances and wear.
  • The fact that there is no wikipedia article on the 4''' rimfire cartridge - after metrification commonly called 12 mm - is not an indication that there was no such thing... after all, it was used by Norway and Sweden for a handfull of years towards the end of the 1800's. I know of more common cartridges used for longer (like the 6.5 mm Japanese centerfire round) that don't have articles on Wikipedia either.

From the source (and sorry for those that don't speak Norwegian):

  • Page 10, under the subheading Kaliberspørsmålet:
Det var tidlig i unionstiden bestemt at det skulle være lik ammunisjon for de militære styrker i de to land. Likevel hadde det i forbindelse med approbasjon av kammerladingsgeværet M/1860 i Norge, med kaliber 4 linjer (ca 12mm), og det samtidige svenske perkusjonsgeværet oppstått en ulikhet. Det svenske geværet hadde vært såvidt dårlig at man ganske snart besluttet å omgjøre dem til kammerladingsgeværer. Prosjektilet som skulle benyttes i dette våpenet måtte imidlertid, for å treffe rillene i låpet, være større enn prosjektilet til det norske kammerladningsgeværet.
Problemet var derfor å få valgt en patron som skulle kunne utnyttes i de tidligere geværene (ved eventuell omgjøring til patrongevær) samtidig som den skulle være tidsmessig og fungere godt i et nytt gevær. Det var åpenbart at man måtte ta hensyn til de ca 30000 svenske geværene og ca 12000 norske geværene som var aktuelle for omgjøring til den nye patronen.
Kommisjonen kom til at det ville skape minst ulemper når man satte kaliberet på det nye Remingtongeværet til 4,1 svenske = 3,88 norske linjer (ca 12,17 mm) og kulediameteren til 4.021 norske linjer (ca 12,615 mm). Dette passet bra for det svenske geværet, men mindre bra for det norske 4 linjers kammerladningsgeværet.
For those not familiar with Norwegian; the source here states that the recomended caliber was 12.17 mm, with a bullet 12.615 mm in diameter.
  • Page 11, subheding Approbasjon av kaliber og patronkammer
Den 10. mai 1867 ble følgende forslag til kongelig resolusjon fastsatt av kongen:
«Med Hensyn til de Infanterigeværer, som herefter forfærdiges for Armeen, fastsættes følgende:
1. Kaliberet skal være 3,88 norske = 4,1 svenske decimale Linier.
2. Kammeret eller Udboringen i Løbets bakre Ende skal være som hosstående Figur udviser.
3. Patronerne skulle passe i den under Punkt 2 bestemte Udboring og være indrettede for saakaldet Ringantændelse.
4. Geværmekanismen skal være indrettede for Ringantændelse.
The figure refered to in the second point indicates the following: caliber of the barrel 3,88 decimale linjer, lenght of bullet outside casing 3,88 decimale linjer, lenght of casing 12,78 decimale linjer, diameter of casing at the shoulder 4,31 decimale linjer, diameter of casing at base 4,54 decimale linjer, dimeter of rim 5,20 decimale linjer, thickness of rim 0,57 decimale linjer.
For those not familiar with Norwegian; the source states that the king approved of the proposed round and chamber on the 10th of May 1867, refering to the figure described above.
  • Page 11, subheading Betegnelse på Remingtongeværet:
De første årene ble geværet omtalt som 4''' Remingtongevær. I forbindelsen til overgangen til metriske mål bestemte Generalfelttøymesteren den 23. juli 1879 at geværet for fremtiden skulle benevnes 12 mm Remingtongevær. Modellbetegnelsen (M/1867) ble bare i meget begrenset utstrekning benyttet på den tiden.
For those unfamiliar with Norwegian: The rifle was known as "the 4''' Remington rifle" the first years, but when Norway went metric it was decided to call it "the 12 mm Remington rifle" from 1879.

Summary: The correct nomenclature on the weapon is, and has always been 4 linjers Remingtongevær. The caliber was 4''' (at least in everyday speak, just as the above mentioned Mauser Kar98K was known as 8mm), or more precisly 12.17 mm in modern measurements. I've reverted your well meant, but faulty, changes to the article, and tried to clear up the confusion. WegianWarrior 08:59, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)