Talk:Ronald Reagan in music

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Pro-Reagan music???[edit]

Every song covered in this article either criticizes Reagan or is clearly anti-Reagan. I am sure that there must be at least some songs that are pro-Reagan, especially after his presidency. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:43, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes! Find and add! Morganfitzp (talk) 03:14, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I've done what I can to add this section. Pro-Reagan music is a bit harder to track down. Morganfitzp (talk) 16:06, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
More has come out on this. See the end of the hardcore punk section. Morganfitzp (talk) 00:57, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Too few references[edit]

There appears to be too much independent research in this article. For example, in what way is Reagan referred to in "The Old Man Down the Road?" Some source material might provide more than just the assertion. That whole section contains what appears to be someone's own research into the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.102.133 (talk) 20:04, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you User:71.178.102.133. I've added a couple of refs for Fogerty's song. Where else are you seeing what appears to be original research in need of references? Morganfitzp (talk) 18:02, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

NFCC violations[edit]

Aside from the problems described above, which persist, this article is riddled with NFCC violations -- both procedural, in terms of virtually complete failure to provide appropriate article-specific NFCC use rationales, and substantive, in that you don't need a an image of an album cover when the relevant content can be adequately conveyed by text alone. Stating that Reagan's image appeared on the cover is sufficient. This is elementary. Also, it's unacceptable to simply present extensive quotes of copyrighted lyrics. Rather than quoting lyrics, reliable secondary sources -- not an editor's interpretation of the lyrics -- must be cited. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 14:30, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Hullaballoo, please assume good faith from your fellow editors. One could, instead of just deleting entire paragraphs of text, tag things and write a friendly note, like, "Hey, this section on hip-hop could use some more references," or, "Clearly a lot of thought went into this part about the 1960s, but this is where it could be tightened up." If one treats fellow editors' work "like dirt" than that editor may feel "treated like dirt" on the other end. Our goal here is to move an article from start-class toward becoming a good article. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, what are some things you can do toward that end? Morganfitzp (talk) 14:48, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
The NFCC violations almost certainly can't be fixed, and by policy are to be removed on sight; that's why removing NFCC violations is an exemption from 3RR limits. The OR (original research) problems may or may not be fixable, but consensus practice is generally to remove such unsourced statements on sight. Attributing opinions to living persons without sources, or based on one's own interpretation of primary sources, also violates BLP policy. The problem was raised above, months ago, and very little action was taken. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 15:32, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
References added, 100 to date. Visual representations have been replaced by the section on record sleeves. Enjoy. Morganfitzp (talk) 01:00, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ronald Reagan in music/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ribbet32 (talk · contribs) 01:16, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Well written:

1a Lede: "attack on things"- can we come up with a less pedestrian term than "things"? Second sentence of "Pre-presidency" desperately needs punctuation. "movie" is also slangish compared to "film". In Popular and folk music, "blow up the world" is eyebrow-raising pedestrian as well. Generally, referring to "America", "American" or "America's", such as in "America's role in the Iran-Contra affair" should be replaced by "U.S.", "U.S. government", "Reagan Administration", "Reagan White House"- take your pick. " the 1986 United States bombing of Libya Britain's participation"- makes no sense. Last sentence of Punk rock is too long and needs to be broken up. Hip hop section includes inappropriate contraction "he's". In Post-presidency, : is used instead of " in Fist Fight in the Parking Lot. 1b Lede feels too short for an article this size, and citations in lede should be avoided (see WP:LEAD, WP:LEADCITE). Much of its analytical content should be moved to an "Analysis" section, and lede should summarize article. Heading "Reagan's impact on music during his presidency" is wordy and stretches TOC. The preceding and following sections suggest "Presidency" would be more logical as well as concise.

2a Review pending 2b Review pending 2c. Review pending 2d. Checks free
  • Broad in its coverage:
3a. Pretty comprehensive. 3b. Not a lot off topic
  • Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

4. Despite the subject matter of most of the songs, the article feels like it is summarizing them rather than endorsing anything. Given that and addressing of concerns at Talk:Ronald Reagan in music#Pro-Reagan music???, this feels alright. One issue in Reggae is "the President and his wife's misguided priorities" rather than "what they believed were the misguided priorities of the President and First Lady".

  • Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

5. No edit wars taking place

  • Illustrated, if possible, by images

6. No fair use violations, but feels lacking on images. Free music-related Reagan pictures exist: Something like this, File:Yo-Yo Ma performs for President Reagan 1987.jpg, with a caption like "Yo-Yo Ma performs for President Reagan. Numerous songs were also written about Reagan during his presidency". Other images on Commons- File:Ronald Reagan Ella Fitzgerald.jpg, File:Nancy Reagan directs the National Symphony.jpg (which could go next to discussion of ""Dear Mrs. Reagan"). Hip-hop section describes sampling We begin bombing in five minutes, which is free: File:ReaganBeginsBombingRussia.ogg For top of Punk rock section, File:Reaganyouthband.jpg is public domain. In Post-presidency, File:Iron Reagan Party.San Metal Open Air 2016 05.jpg is free too.

2c review Ref 6 (Steinberg) does not support "Ochs' satire highlights the permeable line" statement. Ref 9 (Free Republic) [1] does not appear to support inflection on voice. Ref 11 is supported [2] but needs rewording to avoid close paraphrasing. Refs 15 and 16 are dead, see WP:LINKROT. Ref 19 doesn't really refer to "Reagan's prudishness". Maybe his conservatism. Similar close paraphase concerns in refs 23 [3], 24 [4] Ref 28 does not support Contras in "Wants to Dance [5], 47 [6] (needs p. 202 in footnote); p 47 missing on ref 52 [7]. Ref 53 doesn't mention a Let Them Eat Jelly beans [8]
@Morganfitzp: That's a lot of work to do right there, so I'll put the article on hold for seven days pending attempts to address concerns before reviewing past the Punk rock section. I'm half-inclined to recommend suspending the nomination and sending to the Guild of Copy Editors. Ribbet32 (talk) 22:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Well written edits[edit]

  • Replaced "attack on things" with "attack on aspects of culture."
  • Broke second sentence of "pre-presidency" into two sentences.
  • Ochs himself using the term "movie" during his introduction to "Ringing of Revolution" when he says, "It's so cinematic it's been made into a movie." Movie also denotes a film that's a bit more pop culture, which is what Ochs was alluding to in his narration.
  • Changed "blow up the world" to "start a war with the Soviet Union."
  • Changed "America's role in the Iran-Contra affair" to "the Reagan administration's role in the Iran-Contra affair."
  • Fixed the sentence about the U.K supporting the U.S. Military's bombing of Libya.
  • Broke up last sentence of punk rock section.
  • Removed contraction in hip hop section.
  • Fixed formatting of Zack de la Rocha quote.
  • Replace colon with quote for SNL song title.

Morganfitzp (talk) 01:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

"America" still appears here and there throughout article, and the Libya-Britain sentence is too long and still hard to comprehend. If you have Microsoft Word or a similar program, I'd suggest doing a "Find & Replace" function to clean up the Americas and change US to U.S. per WP:NOTUSA. Ribbet32 (talk) 02:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Libya-Britain sentence: shortened.
  • Changed or removed nine of 35 appearances of "America" or "American" in the article, the others being either direct quotes or appearing in phrases like "Latin America."
  • According to WP:NOTUSA the Chicago Manual of Style prefers "US" (no periods) and I know that the Web (and therefore the English language) has long been heading acronyms towards an existence sans periods. But I've put periods in here at the request of Ribbet32, replacing US with U.S. and USA with U.S.A. I also did the same for the linked article formerly known as "God Bless the USA" [sic]. I will point out the Chicago convention avoids the problem posed earlier this paragraph—that of an acronym like "U.S.A." ending one sentence and a capitalized word like "I" starting the next, resulting in ambiguity as to whether that's one sentence or two. Morganfitzp (talk) 14:42, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Lead section edits[edit]

Removed citations from the lead section. All appear elsewhere in the article. Shortened name of one section for better TOC. Tried making lead bigger, but it just feels like padding. I think it says enough. What else could be added? Morganfitzp (talk) 01:40, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

While the citations appear elsewhere in the article, the lede raises interesting commentary that needs citations, and I think this still justifies an Analysis section. The lede starts off by mentioning scant references pre-presidency; a little more detail can be provided summarizing the other sections- mentions in popular and folk music; a lot of attention in punk rock, including band names, merchandise, some backlash right-wing punk; hip-hop music has sampled Reagan's quotes and speeches; has been portrayed in music videos; songs have continued since leaving the presidency; "Born in the USA" was used for campaigning. Also some summary of what musicians were singing about: anti-war, anti-fascist, anti-evangelical themes, Reagan's economic elitism, and specific episodes like Libya, People's Park, Central America, the Hickley incident. Ribbet32 (talk) 02:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I think we've got a good lede here. I'll work on putting that analysis somewhere. Morganfitzp (talk) 18:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

NPOV edits[edit]

Changed sentence in reggae section to reflect Blue Riddim Band's views as "perceived." Morganfitzp (talk) 03:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Images[edit]

Added Ella Fitzgerald, Beach Boys, Reagan Youth, and Iron Reagan in sections that made sense. Morganfitzp (talk) 03:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Also added sound file to sampling section. Morganfitzp (talk) 14:57, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Original research questions[edit]

  • Changed wording around Phil Ochs' commentary and added references to support.
  • Reworked Tom Lehrer section with additional reference.
  • Changed wording around description of CCR song.
  • Removed two dead links regarding People's Park. The two others in the same spot suffice to support the article subsection and replaced "prudishness" with "social conservatism."
  • Reworded Prince and Louisiana Red references
  • Added referenece to support Henley's ties to the Contras.
  • Added page numbers to Zappa and Reagan Youth references.
  • Sustantiated Let Them Eat Jellybeans with a few more references.

You're right, Ribbet32, that was a lot of work. This is my first attempt at promoting something to GA status. The pedagogy is interesting and I'm up (late) to the task. Morganfitzp (talk) 06:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi @Morganfitzp:, I appreciate a lot of work has been done already. I made some minor tweaks; I generally avoid editing articles I'm reviewing to avoid apprehension of bias, but these were small. My main concerns are still with the lede and analysis; my overall view of the writing is pending until then. And please allow me time before I finish my 2c review. You may be up late, but it's Morning in America! Ribbet32 (talk) 18:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Ha! Morganfitzp (talk)
2c review continued In punk rock, to say a band had "solidarity" with a would-be assassin, half-joking or not, is a heavy WP:BLP claim not made in the source [9] though that source can be used to discuss the band name. Same with calling a couple bands fascists, quasi- or not [10] In Hip-hop, no mention of Bonzo Goes To Washington in [11] In Post-presidency, reference doesn't really say Billy Joel was among the first. In Record sleeves, redundant discussion of Let Them Eat Jellybeans! Close paraphrasing from here re baked fetus [12] In Campaign music, I don't see anything specifically about Lee Greenwood's permission in refs.
@Morganfitzp:, I look forward to your edits re the analysis. Ribbet32 (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
2c review edits continued:
  • Changed JFA section to more accurately reflect references.
  • Replaced "quasi-fascist" with "patriotic" in the pro-Reagan punk section.
  • Added references to support Bonzo Goes to Washington.
  • Changed wording about Billy Joel.
  • Consolidated Jellybeans into album cover section and fixed fetus with more refs.
  • Updated info about Lee Greenwood and his song.
Other fixes and fill-ins happened along the way. More soon. Morganfitzp (talk) 19:19, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Analyses sections[edit]

@Ribbet32: I added the analyses previously summarized in the lede. You can find them in the opening paragraphs of the Pre-presidency and During Reagan's presidency sections. Morganfitzp (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the "Ronald Reagan in music" bolding in lede, this is more of a WP:DESCRIPDIS rather than a proper title, so probably unbold and reword to avoid redundancy in first sentence.
In Pre-presidency, what is the source for the quote " "a haven for communist sympathizers, protesters, and sex deviants"?
In Punk rock, the Washington Post article doesn't talk much about punk or self-release.
In Punk rock, first sentence of 3rd para is too long and needs cleanup.
Also, @Morganfitzp:, you don't have to include this in the article, but I just want to point out that, as always, Dead Milkmen rule. :D Ribbet32 (talk) 05:42, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Getting down to it:
* I tried changing the opening sentence to reduce redundancy. What I settled on was swapping Reagan's name for a pronoun at the start of the second sentence and keeping the first sentence in tact.
* Added ref for communist sympathizers, protesters, and sex deviants.
* Hmmm... I know that something I cited supports this. I'll look at this and this and update it in the next day.
* Cleaned up run-on sentence at start of DKs paragraph.
* @Ribbet32:: Added Dead Milkmen at request of GA reviewer, not because the band members live in my neighborhood. Morganfitzp (talk) 18:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
Just inserted reference #60 to support DIY link. Morganfitzp (talk) 02:28, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for all your hard work Morganfitzp, I think there's been a lot of improvement since the nomination. The fact that the Dead Milkmen live in your neighbourhood provides extra incentive to pass. Ribbet32 (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you Ribbet32 for your time in looking over the article, checking its references, and guiding me through my first GA process. I would very much like to return the favour (Wings of Desire might be my favorite film). I'll likely reach out to you in the next month about getting involve in GA reviews. Thanks again. Morganfitzp (talk) 20:20, 28 August 2017 (UTC)