Talk:Sailor Moon/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about Sailor Moon. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

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Profile Proposal

There is a problem with the character profiles being consistent enough, or at least having some sort of formatting. It makes it confusing and a pain to read and fix mistakes from one to another. (If one has a mistake and then the rest have it too, it's hard to find that repeated mistake.)

Here is a rough of what could be included:

Summary of character at top (Name info, copyright and creator information, basic summary)

(Index)

Character Overview (Basics of who they are)

Statistics (basic stats, as seen on Kaioh Michiru)

History (debatable)

Manga (divide character evolution into arcs, or at least chronologically)

Anime (divide character evolution into arcs, or at least chronologically)

Comparisons (debatable, could be combined with previous)

Manga (manga summary, )

Princess [name] (Combining the info with the profile) (Italics)

Anime (anime summary)

Anime English Dub (summary of English dub)

Magical Powers (Most of them are consistent, so this doesn't need editing)

Transformations

Attacks

Actresses (list of Japanese and English-speaking actresses, eliminate the Spanish ones.)

Trivia (anything interesting about the character)

External Links (should be references, not fan listings.)

(Form Sheet: Sailormoon characters)

Eliminate sections as necessary to character, but keeping same order or general idea
Another option is "forms" which would cut it down to Sailor, Princess, and Civilian forms, but that would mean seriously revising the list above.

Hitsuji Kinno 20:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Do the Spanish actresses belong on the English page?

Delete This is the English page. Hitsuji Kinno 20:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Random Things to Fix?:

Combined Attack should be the common term, not team-up which is awkward.
The ages of the Sailors needs to be put into perspective (for example when is X character 14 v. 16)
A bunch of characters from the manga are missing from the minor character page.
The princess forms of the Sailors should not be a separate page.
Chibiusa, shouldn't that be Chibiusa Tsukino as consistent with the other character pages?
Musical stuff, how much should be included, should it have a subset page? A separate character box? Either list all of them or none at all.
Tomb of the Little Known Senshi should be removed for inaccurate info.
Images from the manga and anime should be featured in the articles and in a consistent fashion, if you are going to use an image from the Shinzoubon, then all the rest should be Shinzoubon. Equal representation. Makes it easier.
There should be a link to the Sailor Moon talk backs to help keep the consistency of said set of articles so they don't diverge on the formatting.
Mistress 9 and Black Lady have to be decided upon. Combine or not to combine.
Category: Sailor Moon Characters needs to be sorely updated. Not all characters seem to be listed and it's confusing. (Minor characters should have a relative link system, instead of the page, or a separate page, to be consistent with the form.)
Blue Saphir? (Enemy page Prince Saphir?)
Use of Japanese after the names should also be consistent.
Minor character page should have the various representations of the characters, or a means to see them, or be consistent in which images are used. (i.e. manga-only character, manga picture, anime-only character, anime picture, both, (anime or manga as chosen).
Shitennou Inclusion of the artbook summary where the creator said she paired the senshi with the various generals, should that be included?
Any vestages of "fanon" talk should be outright banned and eliminated.

If anyone has another suggestion, especially on the naming and arranging on the sections, I'm open to suggestions. I wanted to get feedback before changing anything. Ialso want to make it easier to edit the pages across the board.

Question too: How exhaustive should these pages be?

Hitsuji Kinno 19:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

My inclination is to do the following:

"Princess forms" should either be deleted or redirected and the content merged into the main character articles.
Merge villians by season / movie; if too long summarize and link
If you can come up with a way re-arrnge the minor characters page, go for it. We could go family, school chums, and manga only. If you're talking about "Victim of the day" minor characters, I don't think we necessarily should write info on them. very minor villains can be merged into the season specific villains page.
After this we should combine as much stuff as we can in order to reduce the number of articles.
Properly cite the Japanese name in addition to the Englsih translations (i.e. the blue saphir problem the name were once uniform, but they've become a mish-mash as various smaller edits have "corrected" problems.) Merging should eliminate major page name problems.
Manga, anime, jisshaban, musical info should be included in subsections.
The shitennou-senshi thing is contrevertial. Some say it's not canon because it didn't appear in the manga, yet it was used as the basis of several musicals which were blessed by Takeuchi. Personally, I think use of the word "canon" should be totally eliminated.
Fair use policy limits the number of images that we may use on a page.
Redirecting the talk pages here is a good idea.

--Kunzite 01:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

There is support for the shitennou-senshi pairing via the manga, so I'll cite them. In the anime there is none, obviously.

"This is the title page for the conclusion of the first series of Sailor Moon. It had a great deal of impact on the first series. Probably because the four couplings on the right side were very unexpected. I was thinking of love stories of the previous lives of these couples. I'd like to be able to draw that someday..." Translation by Alex Glover from Artbook 1 with the picture of the senshi-shitennou. (You can find it on mangastyle.net, first artbook, third page at the top.)

Tankoubon 3 of Codename wa Sailor V (which ended after Sailormoon.) vol. 15 (they are called vol. not acts) Alex Glover translation.

"But you do not know me," he says. "In my previous life, I had no rank. I was a miserable soldier in a remote region. You lived in a palace overlooking Venus. The chosen strongest sailor soldier, shining brightly. Before long, for your mission, you went to the ruler of the solar system, the moon. That planet, radiating unsurpassed light. A planet eternally unreachable to us. Then, we were borrowed for the war taking place on the chief planet. By the soldiers under direct supervision of the Prince..."

The young Adonis stands among Endymion's soldiers.

Venus holds Selenity in her arms.

"Finally meeting you... The lovely goddess of beauty and war..."

He sees Venus staring into Kunzite's eyes.

"That reminds me, you've been falling in love with people since way back then!"

There are vestiages of other indications that she intended to match them up in other parts of the manga too, but lacked the time or means to do so. She later ditched the idea for the Live Action, but this is consistent with her own self-admitted ficklness (Sailor V manga, first volume, as a description of Minako and I think asters.)

From the Shinzoubon translation by Alex Glover, Jadeite says about Rei, "So beautiful. I've been attracted to her since I first saw her. This girl."

The other support for this kind of is an off-hand thing in Casablanca, but it's not said in exact words. The largest support is of course the creator, Takeuchi herself as cited in the artbook. She probably added the Kunsite reference after SM ended in reference to that previous thought. There are also smaller references than that but those are the major ones that support the claim. Even so, this should be addressed as contraversial with support on either side of the debate as other wikipedia pages do, such as the pages to Greek Mythology. (For example who sired which children on those pages). Ignopring it will more than likely get people to add it to the page, which will cause unnecessary wars. But I don't think theories such as Michiru is bisexual should be added without some support from canon. Anything in the way of such contraverses should be run by here first anyhow. Only things as supported by the creator or stated by the creator should be addressed.

Anyway merging villians should be done by season, but this also causes problems with the version analysis of said villians. For example, if one was to merge the pages for the last season, one would have to contend with the Musicals, the Anime, and the manga. The plotline of the last season Sailor Stars v. the arc Stars is drastically, drastically different. This means that to pull it off in a succint fashion there would have to be a definite separation between manga and anime to keep the plotlines and differences between said villians different. How to integrate or separate the musicals would also be a major part of contention as well. Then the first series manga anime, musicals, and live action would make it very hairy. The problem with most of the enemy pages is that they severely lack information which should be given to them. However, if they are to be combined, I highly suggest including a series or season overview separated into at least anime and manga and then Musical Information and Live Action information after the listing before the references links. The Musicals cause lots, and lots of problems with the consistency.

I'd also say if they are combined, then I would also suggest that the villians page have relative linking system. (there is a list of Villians).

Fair Use policy limits use of pictures, however, I would serious suggest limiting the amount of pictures to only 3 pictures per page in reguard of the Sailors, and then for other characters 2 where it applies. These pictures would be the following for the senshi (where it applies): 1. Manga picture of the Sailor senshi in question in Sailor form, Shinzoubon where it applies. (consistent) 2. Anime picture Sailor from the last season or appearance where it applies to keep same costume. 3. One picture of the princess form, all from the same picture set. For the enemies, only show their enemy forms, one manga, one anime. Same with minor characters. Any other pictures should be eliminated. Any version where there is only manga, only anime, etc should be limited to one picture per. This will limit the picture fest with said pictures. For the live action, I'll let someone debate for them.

If I can get a few more consensus on the talk redirects I'll do that. I'll finish redirecting the princess pages to the original. Is there any objection to changing Chibiusa to Chibiusa Tsukino?

There should also be a way or system to reference the original manga and anime. For example say something like in 174 there is a reference the Kenny Loggins song Danger Zone (Showed up as part of a print out that Ami had for another student claiming it was from the library of Space Engineering Columbia University). This will reduce the amount of incorrect information as people will have to cite their sources. Currently Wikipedia requires citations, however there is no good way to do this with the information currently on the page. Since Alex Glover is going to be made into a reference, perhaps linking his translation for specific citations might be a good idea. However, this makes things with the anime a little dicey (as well as the other moving pictures.) Anyway, there should be a format for this. I'd suggest for anime, manga, shinzoubon and musicals: "Quote" Version (anime, musical, whatever) Episode number (reference). Then for manga, it should be broken down to Version (shinzoubon or original) Volume, act, page number, only from original (where it applies use the Tokyopop translation for comparison in differences). Having a system for this will greatly reduce problems with randomly inserted info and force fans to look up their info as well as have others to reference off of for important or critical information. This will make citing the names, and other information, much, much easier as well. Adding quotes will enhance the pages a bit.

Might be a good idea to ask people to hit the talk pages before doing edits on each subsequent SM page too. Perhaps a consensus system as well? Say have at least two other people not your friends agree with you on the talk page. This might limit the hit and run people.

Hitsuji Kinno 17:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Redirects

Just wondering, where is the consensus? -- ReyBrujo 18:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Read the section above you. Do you have objections to the redirecting of Sailor Moon sub pages to here. The issue is that there is a lack of consistency between SM sub pages. Pages on characters tend to deviate from each other sharply making it harder and harder to do across board edits and making it hard to read the individual articles. All people blindly adding and changing information on pages without getting any kind of second opinion on the matter. These things should be controlled and will save the person editing a lot of time. It also makes Denelson's job much easier. If you would like to argue against, please list your reasons why. Hitsuji Kinno 19:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the proposed changes as much as I did at first. I think the Sailor Moon section will be greatly improved by them. But unless there are a lot of unsigned comments, most of that consensus looks like you, and it's only about four days of discussion about some fairly major changes, with no notes dropped anywhere else. That, much more than the substance of the changes, bothers me. --Masamage 00:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Apparently the consensus was made between two people. I don't know about any other series in Wikipedia where all talk pages are being redirected to a single one. If you want to talk about Makoto, you do that in Makoto's talk page, not here. If you want to have a centralized discussion, create a WikiProject. -- ReyBrujo 15:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, most (if not all) articles in the Sailor Moon spectrum fail the fictional style guide. Your statement about all people blindly adding and changing information on pages without getting any kind of second opinion on the matter is basically what you did by redirecting all the talk pages here. What makes you think people will discuss if they are redirected to the Sailor Moon talk page if they did not discuss in the individual article page? I repeat: to centralize discussions, create a WikiProject, don't redirect all to a single talk page. -- ReyBrujo 15:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

In light of this, and in lieu of an actual consensus, I think the talk pages should be returned to their original state. As a token of good faith I'll refrain from taking the initiative on that, but someone ought to until this is decided. --Masamage 19:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC) Note: People are starting to fix it independently. If some redirect and some don't, it will be a huge mess. --Masamage 18:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems unusual to me to see all the talk pages redirected. I agree with ReyBrujo that a WikiProject would be the best way to handle this. PaleAqua 20:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Also redirecting talk pages makes assessment templates and the like more difficult to work with. Based on Masamage comments above, I'm unredirecting the pages for now. PaleAqua 11:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, if this is so, then a project should be created because I'm getting sick of seeing the pages constantly diverge from each other making it a headache to edit... I realize that it's being redone below, but that doesn't prevent people from changing things around. So does anyone want to vote on a Sailormoon Wikiproject and vote over positives and cons?

--Hitsuji Kinno 01:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Sailor Senshi Page Merge?

I'd say merge the Sailor Senshi page with the Sailor Moon page. I think it can be done. Since the Princess page was deleted by a vote both on the previous extinct pages and on this page as well as the one created, the Sailor Senshi page should also go. Most of that information can be integrated into this article, or is simply redundant. The only thing of value I can see in it is the things about the Outer v. Inner Senshi. Most of the other stuff is on this page or covered in individual pages. This will also cover the arguement to have a "forms" page for every blasted last form in Sailormoon. (Imagine pages for Princesses, Sailor fuku of every season, kind and shape, a page for senshi form... it just doesn't make sense.) So I say cut it. I'd like for or against on it. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:21, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Against, but you're right that it needs a ton of help. I think it's got the potential for genuinely useful stuff that really doesn't fit into the needs of the main article, which is mostly an explanation of the series as a cultural phenomenon, not a fan-oriented info site. What I'm thinking is a description of what the senshi are and what they're supposed to do, stuff about how they can be good or evil, a merge of Sailor Crystal and possibly Sailor Wars, information on the difference between Inners and Outers and whether that difference matters, why they dress in sailor suits, etc. It's not that useful now, but I think it could be. I'm actually planning on giving it a whack after I finish the profiles. --Masamage 01:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a fan page though and fan terms are supposed to be deleted, I believe, so there has to be a deeper meaning to the article than just that it has "fan value". WikiMoon allows that sort of thing, but I don't think Wikipedia does. So where to draw the line is what's in question. If the argument is that it has "fan value" then people will argue that Michiru is Bisexual, Hotaru and Chibiusa often get paired in fan fiction also to be of "fan value". So if you are going to do it, it has to have value to the general public without clouding issues of what the original series is. *not trying to pick on you, but trying to clear up the issues. Also it should diverge enough for people to not feel the impulse to start a Princesses form page, a SuperS form page, etc. If it cannot be done, I'd say leave it off. Encyclopedia articles should give information and introduce a series, not say what every last little thing in the series is if it's a puublic encyclopedia like this one. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

True, and fancruft in articles makes me just as nutty as anyone. The thing is that the current main Sailor Moon article has a lot of ground to cover just by talking about the history of the series, its premise, its many (many!) variations, its impact on other creative works, etc. I think it would be prudent to leave most of the series' internal information to other pages, which is of course why there are sub-articles in the first place (such as character bios). The 'Senshi' article would explain what we mean in every other Sailor Moon page when we give somebody that title. You and I know that it means they are female, are probably not from Earth, have elemental powers, have a Sailor Crystal (and what that is!), have an alter-ego, aren't necessarily on the side of good, etc. A random visitor doesn't know those things, and it seems too specific to put on a page about the series itself, while being too detailed to explain every time we use the term in every article.

Also, while 'Inner' and 'Outer' Senshi are fan terms, they are enormously useful in concise writing. Imagine every single article continually saying things like, "Sailor Venus is the leader of Sailor Mercury, Sailor Mars, and Sailor Jupiter, who are under the leadership of Sailor Moon and sworn to defend Princess Serenity," when they could just be saying, "Sailor Venus is the leader of the Inner Senshi" like they do now. I didn't have much of an opinion about this before I started editting the articles, but it turns out that the groupings come up a lot when describing people's duties and social circles. So that's a very big factor, in my mind.

Also, the Princesses form page was a bad idea because it was redundant, not because it was too much information. That is a significant distinction. This is only an organizational issue. --Masamage 02:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

hi!

Hi,how do you pasidarai ta sukuosena? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.206.225.175 (talk • contribs) 09:04, 11 August 2006

Say what? -- Denelson 83 16:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sailor Stars

"It (Sailor Stars) has, however, aired in Germany, France, Italy, Portugal, and Latin America."
^Sailor Stars has not aired in France, but it has aired in Spain. I'd advise correcting this information. Elanorea 08:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Done, and thanks. ^_^ Sorry about the semi-protection. --Masamage 09:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Making the Senshi profiles consistent

A long-standing problem has been the enormous amount of variance between the profiles of the 10 main senshi. My proposal for how to deal with this is that we pick one article that exemplifies the way the others should look, and adapt them all to match. If none of the articles is quite good enough, then we should pick one to work on, make it good enough, and go from there.

I propose using the Sailor Mercury article as our guideline, for a few reasons:

She's the first inner senshi.
She is one of the more 'basic' senshi, but does have a slight variation (as Dark Mercury) and therefore allows us to work out a system for those.
Most important, it's already a fairly solid article with decent prose.

Each article could include the following:

Lead section (Blurb about series, Japanese and English names, significance, other quick encyclopedic facts)
Senshi Form (summary of powers, costume distinctions, special duties, etc.)
Profile (Civilian life, family, personality, quirks, etc.)
Other forms (for characters like Serenity, Sailor V, etc.)
Statistics (as seen in Mercury article)
Powers (as seen in Mercury article)
Variations (short section about differences between the various series)
Actresses (Japanese, English, musicals, PGSM. Probably not other-language actresses?)
Other links

No trivia section. Anything worth saying can be worked in prose. :)

How does this sound? Any thoughts? --Masamage 21:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

That looks quite good. -- Denelson 83 01:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm tweaking the Mercury article right now to make sure it lives up to its position. ^^ Next victim: Rei. --Masamage 20:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Done! I've arranged things, added the new sections, and reorganized the statistics section. The exact contents may need more polishing, but Ami Mizuno is now the finished template to which the other profiles will be molded. Does it still look acceptable? --Masamage 21:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Delete non-dub, non-Japanese actors from the list. (They're not notable for inclusion, unless someone like Vladamir Putin did the voice of FishEye in the Russian dub.) --02:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I have been doing that, since I saw a lot of people asking for it, but it's good to mention. ^^; I also removed non-Japanese non-English names (Rea, Raya, etc.) from the Statistics.

For what it's worth, the Rei Hino page is done now, too! I'll try and get Makoto and Minako tomorrow. --Masamage 04:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Aaaaand Makoto Kino is done! The Venus page is going to be particularly challenging, so take a look at my plan for it on the Talk: Aino Minako page. I probably won't get to all of it today.

The lack of responses is kind of making me nervous. I hope that people are aware I'm doing this and okay with it, not off on vacation, destined to fly into a rage about my pretentiousness when they get home. I really don't mean to step on anyone's toes and would welcome either support or criticism. --Masamage 21:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

n.b., no measurements other than metric, please. -- Denelson 83 03:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, now.. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Units_of_measurement says that conversions shouldn't be removed. --Kunzite 03:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I went back and fixed all height notes to make them in line with the MOS. Please use both metric and us measurements in the articles. --Kunzite 04:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I noticed. Just something: The Manual of Style also states that converted values should use a similar level of precision as the source value. Have you ever heard someone say "I am 170.58 centimeters"? That is the same as saying "I am 1 meter 70 centimeters 58 milimeters tall". Remove decimal values, please. -- ReyBrujo 04:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Naw, I think it's all good in the hood. ;) Danny Lilithborne 03:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the guidelines suggest a common system with a translation next to it. See measurement guidelines. -- ReyBrujo 03:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, yeah, that looks pretty good! With centimeters, followed by inches/feet. Some of them are weirdly exact, though, and were obviously converted from inches. I know there are specific metric heights given somewhere, I've just not found them yet. It's on my to-do list to find a single official source for all that "stats" material and get it cited, because you can find all kinds of garbage online, and it's hard to know which ones are canon. All in due time, though. ^__^ Thanks a ton for the edits, guys! --Masamage 07:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back from a family reunion and planning to hit the Minako article tomorrow. ^^ It'll be a lot of work, but also pretty darned fun. Sorry for the flood of status reports; it's just that I know I'm making enormous changes, and I want to be extremely easy to hold accountable. Wikidrama looks like 0% fun. --Masamage 04:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of individual sailor pages... from WP:WAF (you should get to know this one, it's new and it will likely start being referenced for fictional articles more and more...) "An infobox for a real-life actor would not contain items such as favorite food, eye color, and hobbies; these details do not aid the reader in understanding the important characteristics of the subject." Now the "Statistics" sections aren't infoboxes, but they are on each senshi's page. This data is very very trivial. Shouldn't these sections be removed? --Kunzite 04:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That is an interesting question. You're right that it's not useful, and a lot of it is pretty arbitrary, especially the favorite foods. On the other hand, it's all contained in pretty much every SM website ever constructed, so that makes it sort of notable... I do think the 'hobbies' at least should stay, since they have relevance to the characters. It would be a pretty specific picking-through, anyway, so I say people should sound off about it, and nothing should be removed until we hear from a few. --Masamage 05:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I just completed work on the Minako Aino article! Have a look. :) I'll probably move on to the Outer Senshi next, specifically Neptune and Uranus. (The Usagi article will probably be last, because it intimidates me. :P) I have a growing to-do list of things to discuss about the current senshi bio format (small stuff, like the above concern about the Stats sections), but I'm going to finish making them all match before I post the list and ask for comments. It's fun!

One last note, which I'm copying from Venus's Talk page, is a general call for help: The 'Senshi powers' sections, for all characters, could really use some fixing up. Their prose is often awful, occasionally far too detailed, and sometimes missing entirely. I don't know enough about the specific attacks to really contribute, so if anyone else does, I invite you to go to town on it.

Okay! Thanks once again. --Masamage 22:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Outer Senshi images: Now that I've gotten to the Outer Senshi, another big consistancy problem comes up. The four Inner Senshi profiles have five pictures each: anime/senshi lead images that match, anime/civilian face shots, manga images, attacking screenshots, and PGSM actresses.

The Outer pictures are all over the map. Setsuna has the manga image, but it's in the lead; she also has the civillian face shot. Hotaru has a mismatched lead image, but a good face shot, manga image, and attacking screenshot. Haruka has yet another kind of lead image, and a waist-up civillian shot. Michiru also has her manga image in the lead, but that's all she gets.

Since the Outers obviously don't have PGSM actresses, I think having just four images for them is fine. (Maybe leaving the space open will magically cause Toei to do another season? *_*) I definately think their leads should match, however. So here's what's needed:

Setsuna: Anime lead image, ~~attack screenshot.~~
Hotaru: New lead image (unless the others change to match her).
Haruka: New lead image (unless the others change to match her), cropped civillian-shot, ~~manga image~~, ~~attack screenshot~~.
Michiru: Anime lead image, ~~civillian-shot~~, ~~attack screenshot~~.

I'll start looking; if you find something and/or your personal collection has anything good, by all means, contribute! :D Comments about what kinds of pictures to use are also welcome.

PS. I moved two minor sections from the bottom of this page to the space right above this thread, so that new updates are easier to find. --Masamage 01:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Found some. ^_^ I'll cross off the ones I've implemented. --Masamage 02:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I finally found a series of anime images that includes all four Outer Senshi. Unfortunately, they're printed on cards and look sort of cheesy. Source page is here--scroll down past the image of Jupiter to the columns of images. The ones I'm talking about are in the third and fourth row.

Does anyone know where to find those pictures sans the card info? That would be pretty awesome. It'd even fit with how the Inner Senshi pages are all in Super form. Thanks! --Masamage 09:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I found these links

http://www.angelfire.com/anime3/sailorsun/outer.html

http://www.animegalleries.net/category/5 has better quality images of them even if we don't find all of the transparent gifs.

http://www.princessserenity.net/tgifs/outers/ You might also try there. That's sans background, but that's the best I can fish up.

One minor thing, should Chibiusa be changed to Chibiusa Tsukino in accordance to the name formatting of the other sailors in the group? *Sees a lot of people who think her name is Chibiusa Chiba* I assume she'd be coming up. So voting on it might be a good idea.

Other than that you're doing a really great job with the formatting. We still have to take issue with the links since many links are to fan shrines, etc which aren't referenced in their various articles, or linked inconsistently.

--Hitsuji Kinno 01:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks! :D I'll look through those as soon as I've got time. I looked through a lot already, but none of those specific ones, so it's a relief to see something new.

The Chibiusa point is interesting, because the question of consistancy depends on what we're being consistant with. If the idea is to name the articles after people's full names, then technically her article should be called Usagi Tsukino II or something. But if the idea is to call the characters what Takeuchi Naoko calls them, then it's already correct. (I looked in one of my Japanese manga just now, as well as the Materials Collection. In both, the other characters get their full names; she only gets Chibiusa.)

And again, thanks very much. ^^ I'm having fun. And you're right, that is a problem. I'll add it to the do-to list; if you or anyone else wants to give it a try right now, that would be fantastic. --Masamage 02:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the hardwork. I just have two things to quabble with-- A lot of the information about distinguishing between the manga and the anime is being taken out, which can cause major confusion since both storylines are vastly different. This is an issue that I quickly realize is very hard to address within the formatting of the articles, but minor things like mentioning that the princess forms only show up in the manga, etc might help out.

Consistency is spelled with an e. constant. consistent. Constant means to continue on. Consistent means to have a group of things be the same. ^^;; I think you might have confused the two. Some of the previous articles have this spelling mistake. Is it OK if I fix it for you? I don't want to insult you before informing you.

Officially in the manga Chibiusa's full name is Princess Tsukino Usagi Small Lady Serenity as said by King Endymion. (Volume 5, Act 19, page 108, frame 1, original manga) Then repeated again in Volume 18 when she's at the party (this time with the Princess stated as Hime--this is used interchangably). However naming a page that long is kind of difficult. In Volume 11, her name is stated as "Tsukino Usagi" (Introduction pages). She again states her name as "Tsukino Usagi" (Volume 5, First Chibiusa Diary, Page 150, Frame 1, original manga.) Incidentally in the Shinzoubon notes (Volume 3 last strip), Takeuchi says that Osabu named Chibiusa and pretty much created the character.

"-As for Chibi Usa, I had planned to end with the first storyline, so when I was thinking of a story to prolong the series...

[Bunny]: Nothing comes to mind.

[Pig]: Put in Usagi's kid! Put it in! Put it in!

Left panel 2:

[Pig]: Because she's a tiny Usagi, Chibi Usa! (How about that?)

[Pig]: Chibi Usa-chan!

-That was the order from my boss Osabu." (Alex Glover, translation pages) http://www.kurozuki.com/takeuchi/sailormoon/volume03.html

It was shortened to just Chibiusa in Volume 10, profile pages, Intro pages, Materials Collection (Which has both Usagi Small Lady Serenity and Chibiusa.)

Manga-verse-wise Mamoru gave her the name officially when she first arrived (Volume 4 Act 14 page 65 frame 7, original manga). It was not of her own choosing. The major reason I see to shorten it to Chibiusa according to the manga is 1. Space allotment. 2. Chibiusa is a nickname that she did not choose.

Princess Lady Serenity is mentioned in the Materials Collection and Lady Serenity is mentioned in Volume 4 of the art book in the All characters poster. (She has white hair there.) (Alluded to on the same page where the long, long name is introduced).

So it's a bit difficult, but the manga does confirm all over the place her surname is Tsukino... so what to do?

I saw also you wanted to do a page on several aspects of SM, perhaps combining it with the first article about the senshi might help--something like the Sailor Moon Universe. This will combine several aspects of what you were talking about in terms of nameology, forms, places, etc without going into specific characters. So there will be something for within the universe rather than from without and about the creation of the series... I'd put this too up for a vote as well.

^_^ Thanks for all the hardwork again and putting up with my little nitpicking.

--Hitsuji Kinno 02:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm starting indenting over so it doesn't get crazy. o.o

All great points! As regards the manga-anime differences, I was trying to put all that in the 'Variations' section, and mostly reserve the 'Profile' for stuff that applies to both. If you think anything should be moved from one section to the other, go for it! And you're entirely right that the princess bits should mention in which version exactly that happens. So I'll take care of that next. ^^

Also, I've fixed the "consistency" spelling in all talk pages, and I'll try to do it right from now on. Ya learn something new every day!

I'm aware of the story about Chibiusa's full name name; I'm just saying that when Naoko makes character lists, or merchandise, or anything of the type, it's just not used. Whether that's important or not is probably a consensus decision, and should probably go to the Talk:Chibiusa page so as not to clutter up this article. I do think the system of redirects and such that we have now works just fine.

As for seperate sections...I'd like to work up a proposal for that, and post it here to get people's opinions. But I don't have it fully solidified in my mind just yet. :) As soon as I do, I'll make a new section here. Thanks for your help! --Masamage 03:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I found a precedent for Tsukino Chibiusa!!! Volume 2 of the Story Collection (appendage to the Shinzoubon), Parallel Sailormoon, and also in the Materials Collection, Parallel Sailormoon... ^_^ So Chibiusa Tsukino is actually fine. =P It's also the last time she drew + posted the name of the character in a story... so does that count?

Beyond that the pages look really good. I hope everything will get up to speed soon. --Hitsuji Kinno 02:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

(See Talk:Chibiusa.) --Masamage 08:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Sailor Moon Wikiproject

Support! I love this idea, and am now reading up on the logistics. --Masamage 01:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Support. -- Denelson 83 02:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Support.--Hitsuji Kinno 19:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Why wait? I've started working on a main page in my userspace. I'll post when it's ready! ^___^ --Masamage 06:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

And...I have posted it. We can now start organizing our efforts at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sailor Moon. It's very preliminary, and needs a lot of help, but it's there!

I've proposed three major things in the Talk page, sooo...have at them! --Masamage 04:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Fancruft and Fanon

I was perusing the Sailor Starlight page and there is a lot of fancruft slapped at the end. It bothers me a lot. Apparently one visitor decided to add it without consultation, but assumed that since no one replied it was alright to do. I *hate* fan speculation added to these articles. It always ends in huge wars which could have been mitigated. It was obviously added by a U/S shipper. So when it comes to that page, could someone fix it now so during clean up it's not a pain, or could Masamage do it? It makes my head spin... and I don't feel like doing it myself because I still feel sick from it. I'd also like to propose that all fancruft and fanon on the page (even though it's stated a number of times already on Wikipedia) when the project is set up be banned unless deemed useful to the pages like Outer Senshi, with clear clarification as fanon and the reason it's being used. *Goes off to bang head repeatedly.* --Hitsuji Kinno 21:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree about banning fancruft. I also agree that sometimes its existence needs to be mentioned--for example, the Sailor Cosmos article specifically mentions that no one really knows if she's Sailor Moon or not, and that's a useful thing to state, because if it wasn't there people would edit it according to their viewpoint. However, stuff like relationships that never happen or the frequency of fanfic pairings never, ever need to be mentioned.

Also, I'm tickled that you asked me to try that. ^_^ Is that any better? The Starlights section in general needs a huge rewrite all around, especially to make the characters clearly the unique individuals they are. Yet another thing for the to-do list... --Masamage 04:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Outers images

A few sections up, we're trying to find lead pictures for the Outers that match each other, like what the Inner Senshi have (but not necessarily matching the Inners, if you see). No luck with high quality yet, though. I did find this promising picture of Saturn, but nothing seems to match it yet. Any help is appreciated. --Masamage 02:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Sailor Pluto

Given enough time in future, people will ask why there is a Sailor Pluto, as Pluto is not a planet (per 2006 redefinition of planet). Should we leave a note about this? SYSS Mouse 19:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Give the fact that we have a Sailor Ceres, a Sailor Vesta, Sailor Pallas, a Sailor Juno, a Sailor Mau, a Sailor Coccon, a Sailor Lethe, etc.., I really don't think it matters and we shouldn't note it. --Kunzite 19:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Of the 35 characters I can think of with 'Sailor' before their names (in the anime and manga only, so not including Sailor Pewter Fox, Sailor Luna, etc. and not including the dozen or more phages), only eight are named for planets that were ever an official part of the solar system. No, it's not important. --Masamage 19:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: it now has a mention at Setsuna Meioh#Sailor Pluto. --Masamage 21:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Sailor MOON is the MAIN CHARACTER, and the moon is NOT a planet either. What's your point? BettyAnn 23:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, at least, there is implict categorization among those "Sailors". Give examples, The Protagonists are after planets, Amazoness Quartet are after asteroids in asteroid belt, etc. Also on Pluto, the reason is simple: it was common knowledge, when the magma was produced, that Pluto is a planet. SYSS Mouse 00:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

So Sailor Moon is just one great big volcano? :) -- Denelson 83 00:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

They're occasionally referred to as "planetary senshi" or as "senshi of the solar system". So it's worth mentioning, but is not of great import, which is why the reference is so short and discreet. --Masamage 15:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Todo

I marked this as start-class, but it could be B-class. The article needs some cleanup - for example, some extra bullet points need to be taken out of the sidestories and specials subsection. Another image or two would also help, and the Japanese links currently in the refs section should be in the external links section. The manga and English-language manga sections also need citations. If at least this last part is done, it can be B-class. --Core des at talk. ^_^ 06:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a shot at all these, except the images. A lot of restructuring needs to be done before we move up to the next class, but I either cited or reworded the problem areas, moved the links, and fixed that bullet section. How's it look now? :) --Masamage 22:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, it was a pain, but I cleaned up the manga section to look like the anime section, added volume info, etc. The only thing I can physically see we are missing is the reference for the last bit of info where it says Tokyopop lapsed on its renewal of Sailor Moon manga. Does anyone out there remember if it was released in a newspaper or other creditable official reference? BTW, someone can move the artbook stuff around a bit, or add it to pertaining Sailor Moon (manga) sections later if it's considered to be too much clutter. Once we get that reference I think we can apply for a B rating. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Templates

Do we really need four Wikiproject Templates? Can we get rid of WP Television at the very least? Kyaa the Catlord 10:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There was an indication that it can be "hidden"? How is that done? I'd like to hide that one and the Japan one. --Masamage 17:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, as it's its own project, I would get rid of everything else. Technically, there's more to Sailor Moon than just TV, just Japan, and just anime and manga, so those templates are all only partially accurate. MSJapan 21:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I would like to stick with the Anime and Manga project, though. They can do stuff like classify our articles, which is very handy.

My other votes are that we remove the TV tag from this page, but place it on the Sailor Moon media and release information, Sailor Moon (English version), and Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon articles (which are the ones it matters for). I think this page should remain in the "Japan" project, as it is considered High priority, but no other Sailor Moon pages should be part of it.

Also, I'm going to remove the "Talk page" template right now, as it's taking up a ton of room. If we lose the TV template, we're down to four, which is perfectly respectable. --Masamage 22:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, there. The Japan template got removed. Don't you think being "high importance" to it makes a difference? --Masamage 00:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Second Stars image

I've IFDed that image. I think it's a matter of someone wanting their contribution in WP, is all, without understanding how WP works. There's no indication that the image is fair use, officially released, or anything. Moreover, the original image is better. I think this is going to be a 3RR violation the next time it happens, BTW, so feel free to report it as such. MSJapan 18:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I actually put it up for speedy deletion on the basis of its being redundant, so it's already gone. So weird... --Masamage 19:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Removing the second disambiguation

I propose removing the second disambiguation, leading to Sailor Moon (English version). That article is not about the English series known as Sailor Moon--there's no plot, and no explanation of the cultural phenomenon it was. That stuff is all here. What that article is about is the history of the series' translation into English, when and how it was done, and what changed. If you check out the bottom of its talk page you'll see an example of the confusion this can cause. Really its name needs to be changed, and it should not be linked as if it were something with the same name as this.

If no one objects, I'll do that tomorrow evening. --Masamage 05:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Orrrr Denelson will do it! Heehee, thanks. ^^ --Masamage 08:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Ranino

It's not clear why ranino links here. I'm cleaning up orphaned articles. Any help appreciated . meatclerk 19:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's hoaxalicious nonsense that some anonymous vandal made up. It should be deleted post-haste. Danny Lilithborne 19:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- Kind of amusing, but useless. I tagged it. --Masamage 21:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Custom Hero box

Contents moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Sailor Moon#Infoboxes.

Publishers

The Publishers list more than Kodansha and Tokyopop/Mixx... is this compliant with the standards of nothing outside NA and Japan according to the Project standards? Shouldn't those things be covered in the respective language's SM pages? --Hitsuji Kinno 15:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Assessment

This just manages to make it to B-class - it has cite web formatting for the few references it has (then again, an article on an anime/manga isn't likely to need many citations). I noticed some commented-out parts that are commented out because they're unsourced - these need sources, ASAP, or they should just be removed. Also, the article might need some copyediting, but other than that, it looks okay to me. --Core des at (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Paragraph length

In order to get this article toward featured quality, there should not be any one-or-two-sentence paragraphs in it, such as what I see in the 'Musical stage show adaptations' and 'Televised "live-action" drama adaptation' sections. Those points should be a little more elaborated upon. -- Denelson 83 20:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

DiC Trailer

Papirini/Cookirini found this clip on You Tube from DiC. It's really funny, but it backs up a lot of the reports about the names "blue" for Mercury... etc.... Ahhh... Life is good compared to that. http://youtube.com/watch?v=CEXqoPgbH0c --Hitsuji Kinno 03:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That must be the initial promotional tape. -- Denelson 83 07:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like. It's available on that Toonami page linked from the English versions article, too, as well as the ToonMakers clip. Man, that thing makes me want to lock someone up. There's also a hilariously nauseating doll commercial that, apparently, actually ran on TV. No wonder people make fun of this stuff. --Masamage 16:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Too Plain

With all the stuff that was sent to other pages, the page looks more like a list of facts than a true base page.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 02:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

What else would you expect from an encyclopedia article except a organized set of facts? This isn't supposed ot be a base page, either; that would be the project page. Now, keeping all that in mind, what do you think is the problem now that was not a problem before? MSJapan 03:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

We're mostly making room for better all-over coverage here--in particular, a good solid Reception section. If you think more of the info from the anime/manga subpages should be duplicated here, there may well be a very good case for that. :) What I left in here was pretty preliminary, and can be expanded on. It was just way too crowded before. --Masamage 05:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it does look a little plainer, now. More launch-paddy, to be sure, but plainer. Is there a different image that we could use for the infobox, so that we could move the cast shot down to the characters section? Could be worth a thought. Also, perhaps the PGSM section could be shortened a bit? As it is, it feels a bit too large. - Malkinann 11:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree; the PGSM articledoesn't even have a lot of the info its main-page subsection does, which is weird. I think this content sould be moved over there, and a better intro section should be here. I'm open to suggestions about the Senshi image, too--we might even leave it just for the Senshi page itself, since the character sections butts right up against the infobox. I don't think it's high enough quality for this main article. --Masamage 16:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well Lets see, I say we move the image of the orginal Or english logo into the top box. I never really did like that image we have up there now. I mean its a nice image, but the copy we have of it is not that great. For starters, Someone shrank it down before they uploaded it and the image is pixalated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sailor_Senshi.gif I found this image on the net. It isn't as neatly aranged but it includes Tuxdio Kamen, The cats, The Star Lights, Kakkuu, and ChibiChibi in additon to the sailor team (now only if it had the Sailor Quartetto) Lego3400: The Sage of Time 20:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly the image I was thinking of! ^___^ Looks awesome. If no one disagrees, what say we use that for this page instead? We can keep using the other one at Senshi, since it shows full-body shots (which is handy for recognizing the costumes). And it has no non-Senshi, which Tux, the cats, and anime-Kakyuu are. --Masamage 20:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Except that that image is a GIF, and cannot be resized. Someone will need to convert it to PNG first. -- Denelson 83 22:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sailor_Senshi2.png Done!Lego3400: The Sage of Time 23:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC) I swaped them out. If you want to change it back you can just remove the 2 off of the image name.

Dang, that looks amazing. What a contrast. --Masamage 01:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

My bootleg page...

Hi, I've made a page about sailor moon bootlegs. It suddenly dissappeared. Do you know something about it masamage? I just want to know why nobody would wanna know something about it. Many people buy bootlegs with bad sound and image quality without knowing it's a fake one. I was just started to put more information on the page. Was it maybe it not allowed to write about it? Just tell me and I won't bother anybody anymore with my bootleg info.

I've also put this question on the user talk of masamage. After I got an answer I will delete my messages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justwriting (talk • contribs) 20:10, 18 October 2006

I have replied at User_talk:Justwriting. --Masamage 02:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Difference between us and GA

I'm setting my sights higher. The main difference between us and GA are two things. 2 out of the five articles listed have something on critical acclaim outside of the fandom, so reception by newspapers and evidence of influence on other anime... this shouldn't be too difficult, but it has to be from magazines, etc. Also the other thing we are missing is references. All GA references have at least like 10 or more references to the point that it looks like it could be semi-anal... therefore a sweep needs to be made to add in references and get this up to a higher grade. Admittedly many of the GA articles have the advantage of not have a multimedia congolmerate behind them... meaning they are mostly self-containing, but I think if we amp up those two things we can reach that level too. ^_^ So let's work on that.

Side thing: Wikiquotes at the bottom many of them kinda suck... can some of us go in and fix them? >.<;; Ugly, no referencing... Oy... yes, a different site but still... we should have pride as SM fans... --Hitsuji Kinno 17:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The Wikiquotes do suck. They suck so much they scare me and I'm reluctant to get involved. o_O I'll mention it at the Project, though.

Now I'm going to see about putting a to-do list in here...--Masamage 00:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

lol @ 'semi-anal' XD. here's some references, but I'm not sure of their quality/relevance/context in the WP SM article. Young Females as Super Heroes: Superheroines in the Animated Sailor Moon Shoujo in a Nutshell Girl Power Make Up! - Malkinann 01:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Re the first link: "Serena Moon"? Gosh, someone didn't do enough peer review on that essay... -_-; -- Denelson 83 02:10, --Hitsuji Kinno 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)23 October 2006 (UTC)

First and second link I'd throw away. The first one has wrong info about the show and I don't want that bad info making it to out pages such as "Sailor Moon is an earlier form of Princess Serenity" which is wrong... and the whole bit about the third wave of feminism is off since Japanese media deal with an idealized world (and highly stratefied representation of those worlds--cultural anthropology perspective)--in this case where females can have equal rights and save the guys for once. The second article is on a website about Shoujo-ai and yuri, which gives a wrong impression on there there is a list of Yuri couples, and in this case it lists all of the inner senshi being in a love-affair with the princess and Hotaru and Chibiusa. >.<;; The list continues too... and then she added Toki*Meca in *hangs head*. =P. So when we list sites they should be to reputable sites so if someone looks around for more info they don't end up with bad information. Akadot covers the perspectives better than the other two. However, I believe we should have newspapers and magazines, such as the New York Times or something along that line that's online, on one hand, but also in physical print. The more we have the better. --Hitsuji Kinno 00:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

This looks pretty good. Does anyone know where to find that Dave Barry piece? --Masamage 00:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Umm.. it's more about the importation of anime than it is about Sailor Moon and how to public received it. It is a good academic paper, and it might be useful for the dub page to further illustrate differences in a wider perspective (to compare to other anime in terms of censoring for the times given), but it lacks things like criticism, critical acclaim, etc which would define the anime and thus the section. Notes on popularity, such as that it made it into a lyric of a Barenaked Ladies' song and finding that bit from Dave Barry, as well a real newspaper articles and real magazines is a bit more of what I'm aiming for--like the other reception pages, cultural impact to some effect, but more about criticisms about the show from professional writers and critical acclaim. Less on personal interpretations and arguing about how things are... So for example, "An Animation to capture a girl's heart..." kind of quote.. or to the criticism side, "girls that make people think they must wear short skirts and worry about makeup..." that sort of thing. That was my impression of the other reception pages.--Hitsuji Kinno 02:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

They do say that "The List" is largely wish fulfillment... I guess it's not such a good reference anyway, cos it doesn't go in depth. Speaking of which, I've had a go at editing Yuri (animation)'s references to Sailor Moon (just to say Tarakazuka YAY! and that Michiru was probably only flirting with Seiya cos of the mission.) - that's probably something that WP:SM should do at some point. - Malkinann 21:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Nifty; I gave it another pass. Look okay? --Masamage 21:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that looks a lot better, and it doesn't understate things, either. - Malkinann 00:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The page still needs some cleanup (the yuri animation page) on the SM sections. (How come Haruka is a famous lesbian whereas Michiru is not. =P That's just weird to list one without the other.--Other bits too. It should be a bit more neutral instead of grasping at straws. In the manga Seiya never had anything for Usagi, it was affection for a princess... citation would be needed.) But I'm sure I'll get around to it if no one else does. --Hitsuji Kinno 06:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Haruka is more famous because she's the "butch" one, but mentioning both of them is probably better. Also, in Act 46 Seiya kisses Usagi on the lips, says "I hope we're born again," and thinks to herself as she leaves that it's probably unrequited love. --Masamage 07:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually that might be out of context... The previous sentence was: "Princess Kakyuu, also," he says. "Her beloved was lost to Galaxia... Sailor Moon, whatever battle awaits you in the galaxy, we have power at your side." He kisses her hand. "We will protect you." Which means devotion to a princess or a higher authority. This doesn't translate well in the highly industrial society of the US where love has become a commodity and thus an industrial thing to have (romantic specifically). Thus when she says unrequited love, she may be referring to the coming war and death and being unable to protect yet another princess. This is not denial speaking, this is demonstrating that people often don't have the cultural context for what they see in the manga. To demonstrate there is a precedent one famous "yuri" picture of Minako and Rei was supposed to be devotion to their princess. Without getting and launching into gender divisions in Japan I will say that two old Japanese women walking down the street clasping hands is not gay like kissing someone on the cheeks in France is not gay... Haruka showed much of the same devotion earlier and the Materials Collection says Seiya is based on Mamoru and on Haruka. So this makes it cloudy. Making Haruka more famous because she's the "butch one" I think is shallow view of homosexuality, thus Michiru, as you said should be added. ^_^ As I hear, it takes two to tango, and Haruka, definitely in the anime didn't tango alone. Michiru was the one "in charge" making decisions and telling her to turn back, etc. Her character isn't as popular overall in relation to the others because people don't like "perfect" characters (though this is a shallow evaluation of her.) --;; Ranting again. Sorry. But overall it's good. If there were cultural context about it it would make the article on yuri/shoujo-ai better. I know a few academic papers that talked about why its popular. --Hitsuji Kinno 05:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not making Haruka more famous; how would I do that? ^^;; I just think she happens to be so.

Anyway, I understand the whole not-every-sign-of-affection-is-romantic bit. I really do. But I think that interpretting a kiss on the mouth as 100% platonic is stretching things a little. Every other kiss on the lips in the entire SM series means the same thing; why not this one? I think that unless Naoko states that Seiya wasn't in love with Usagi, we ought to take this particular sign for exactly what it look slike (expecially by comparison with the rest of the series); anything else is original research. --Masamage 07:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Didn't Haruka kiss Sailor Moon Earlier on and it meant exactly as I said? Devotion for her princess.--Hitsuji Kinno 22:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We should probably take this discussion on the yuriness in Sailor Moon over to the Talk:Yuri (animation) page. ;) Sorry for diverting the discussion on GA-ness so much. Hitsuji Kinno, I think that maybe you're taking the 'Haruka is famous' comment on the page out of context, because Haruka is first mentioned in context as the most famous 'bishonen'-type (butch) lesbian, alongside Lady Oscar and Rei from Oniisama e... - Michiru couldn't ever be named as a famous butch lesbian! XD Haruka and Michiru *are* the first ones named in the 'famous yuri couples' section. Masamage, can you cite the Seiya/Usagi stuff? I'm not doubting that it's there, but it would be nice to see it cited, if only because the rest of the yuri article is a bit woeful in that regard. I uploaded a picture of Michiru and Haruka - does it meet with general approval? I tried to choose it to show their butch/femme-ness. - Malkinann 00:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure can. Act 46 of the manga, as translated here. There's a scanned image at this website. And yeah, I like the image. --Masamage 02:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

But the author of the webpage says that we shouldn't directly link to that page, so it's difficult to cite it from there. :S We could cite it on his site, but only have the link going to the main page? Or maybe just go straight to the source and cite the original manga... I dunno. Thanks for saying that you liked the picture that I chose. :) - Malkinann 03:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I'd say cite it as a reference to the book itself (Volume 18), and follow that up with "Translation available at..." and a link to his main page. --Masamage 04:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Lock

Can we take the lock off now? It's been on there for ages, and it's not a good look for a page to be locked for a long period of time. - Malkinann 00:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate references for Video Games

I've started up a page on referencing in Sailor Moon here. Some discussion of what is an appropriate/inappropriate resource is there, too. Would www.sailor-games.com be an appropriate resource for the video games section? - Malkinann 00:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

No comment on this right off, but dang, that section got huge fast. Branch off, I say! Sailor Moon video games ho! :) --Masamage 04:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Or should it be Sailor Moon (video games) to fit with the (anime) and (manga) articles? ;) - Malkinann 06:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. The thing about the manga and anime is that they're called "Sailor Moon"--that's the actual title of the single work. The video games article will be about multiple individual works, with many titles, which are based on the rest of the franchise. So this would be more in line with Sailor Moon musicals. --Masamage 08:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you do what you think is best. :) I'm not too fussed either way. - Malkinann 10:39, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The video games section is now substantially the largest in the entire article, so it definitely needs a migration. I'll plop it over there, but it'll be pretty preliminary. --Masamage 16:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)