Talk:Salsta Castle

This article was nominated for deletion on 25 April 2023. The result of the discussion was speedy keep.

Castle/palace

I've undone the recent revision per WP:OR. This place is known as a castle in sources both in English and Swedish in its current form. The term castle is often used for building exactly like this that were built in the early modern period on the site of a previous fortification for this already fits " per definition" Gugrak (talk) 01:29, 25 April 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

:I could see an argument for changing the type in the infobox per the way this is handled at Castle Howard and Highclere Castle for example. I don't know if 'stately home' is appropriate in Sweden. Gugrak (talk) 01:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because the Swedish word slott means both palace and castle in English, buildings which per definition are palaces are often erroneously called castles in translation. It is very common to correct that. Reading our articles on the two words, and the distinct differences between building types, is enlightening. I do not believe the reversal of this compromise is helpful. The current building is definitely not a castle. It is a typical palace, and there is no need to call it a stately home. It would be nice to see some evidence that this building is called a castle "in Swedish" since it's hard to grasp what that means. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS As given here the building is only mentioned as a "castle" in Swedish-origin tourism texts of a kind which are notoriously inaccurate. I will be reinstating what was reverted as a compromise unless someone can come up with a valid reason to call this palace a castle in it s current form. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:32, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for discussing. However you are clearly against the consensus here, and your move of the page was reverted by an administrator, I see. In British English, numerous grand country houses like Castle Howard are called castles; and we restrict the term "palace" to the homes of royalty and very occasionally a particularly grand ducal home like Blenheim Palace. Even the royal Balmoral Castle, decorated certainly with towers and a bit of crenellation, was never a military fortress, any more than Salsta was. The only other Swedish word that comes close is herrgård, which is usually translated "manor", a country house with some traces of a feudal origin. The English and Swedish terms correspond only approximately, and it's chasing the rainbow to expect to find some term that will match perfectly: it's not possible. But in both English and Swedish, slott and "castle" are always big buildings, often-but-not-always defensive, often associated with aristocracy: so they match pretty well. We should, as has already been explained to you repeatedly in edit comments and discussion, leave this title alone. Any "reinstating" you choose to do given that there is a consensus against you, that you have already tried the change and been reverted, and that there is a discussion under way, would be clearly contrary to policy. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice, in writing all that, if you hadn't misunderstood me. I am not talking about changing the article's name again, only about the compromise. As far as the use of the word "palace" in English text is concerned, I cannot agree with your opinions. English is my first language, and Swedish my second, and I have taught both for over 50 years as well as having translated texts for Swedish universities. It is a very common error for Swedes to translate any and all slott as castles. Tourists visiting Stockholm often hear - and question - "Stockholm Castle" or the "The Royal Castle" re: Stockholm Palace. Suggestion: find out what I actually would like to reinstate - the compromise - and then we can discuss facts, not erroneous assumptions. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:11, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS It seems a bit odd to me to be restricted to using British standards in describing a Swedish palace. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not restricted, no, but since this is an English Wikipedia, what happens in the mother country is certainly relevant; and I have demonstrated that "castle" is used for unfortified country houses. As for your "compromise" - it isn't clear it was agreed with anybody; and starting an article on an existing building by saying that it "was a fortified castle" is at the very least unusual and non-standard. In contrast, the current wording of the first sentence, that it "is a country house" is certainly correct. The "compromise" wording is therefore a definite change for the worse. The current wording correctly states that it was fortified in the second sentence, which seems exactly right. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sources in English, such as they are, all call it a castle. Castle is used in British English for places specifically as described here - a house built in the site of an older fortification. In American English castle is used even more broadly to describe big houses. I've seen no English source that describes this building as a palace Gugrak (talk) 18:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gugrak: The current question is whether the "compromise" wording is an improvement on the current text. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:23, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tried move after Börringe Priory success

I tried to move this again because of the agreement made re another building which is not a castle. Sincerely thought it would be OK to do so now. My apologies to anyone upset. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:41, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's a different situation though. This one is a house built on the site of a fortification so Castle is an appropriate translation here. It's also a misrepresentation to call the Borringe Priory changes a success (a weirdly competitive term) when the discussion specifically rejected the change to Palace in that article. Gugrak (talk) 12:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This compromise was rejected, which would have explained why the article is named "Castle". Now, all we see is the photo of a building which definitely is not a castle. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But it is a castle. The word encompasses more than just a fortification "per definition", and this use to describe this building is perfectly fine in English - as demonstrated with examples by the extensive discussion above. It'd also the term that has sources in English. If you have a compromise then suggest it here on talk and get a consensus version rather than making more bold changes when you know there's an ongoing discussion.Gugrak (talk) 13:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No it is not, according to Wikipedia's articles on these building types and "palace" correctly mentioned in the current text of this article. And as clearly explained by an admin at Talk: Börringe Priory, leading to the compromise there where the word "castle" is not used.

Suggestion (same as before): Salsta Castle was a fortified castle already present on this site in the late 13th century, situated north of Vattholma, Uppsala Municipality, approximately 2.5 kilometers north of Uppsala. The estate has belonged to ... etc --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it's a castle. This is not some children's book where castles have to have turrets and portcullis and all that. Merriam Webster defines castle as, among other things, "a massive or imposing house".[1] The sources refer to it as a castle, and therefore we should not be editorializing or performing our own original research in saying that it isn't. — Amakuru (talk) 13:55, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]