Talk:Santur

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Origin of the term "Santur"[edit]

The article speaks quite esoterically about the origin of the term Santur being unknown: "To date there has never been verifiable evidence what this name actually means, it is just a name and the only meaning it has in the Persian language is this instrument" .

On the German page it says: "Der Name leitet sich vom altgriechischen psalterion (Psalterium) her und gelangte über das aramäische psantrīn ins Arabische: sanṭīr/sanṭūr/santūr/سنطير/سنطور/سنتور. "

In English: "The name derives from the Old Greek name Psalterion (psaltery) and via the Arameic psantrīn it came into Arabic: sanṭīr/sanṭūr/santūr/سنطير/سنطور/سنتور."

One could add "The name PRESUMABLY dervies from..." until there is a concrete reference to support that...

Mattijoon (talk) 14:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Santur masters[edit]

Reference to the Kamkars is missing, Ardavan Kamkar and Pashang Kamkar. In Iran they are considered to be among the finest. In terms of technique, afaik Ardavan Kamkar is considered the best Santur player in the world...

(In contrast, Sadeghi who as expat is famous out of Iran is not considered a grand master of the same spirit. At least not by the Persian musicians I know)


Mattijoon (talk) 14:30, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


Santur masters[edit]

Kamkar's ? No one is disputing that the Kamkar's are great musicians. Wikipedia has a path to include a "Notable Musicians" which has to have a certain amount of achievements to be characterized and included. Mattijoon since you seem to be an expert on the subject, why don't you add the kamkar's to the notable musicians list in wikipedia, so they can be added to the list of Santur players?

and your comment: "Sadeghi who as expat is famous out of Iran...." = First of all you need to learn English before coming online and making dumb statements.

Sadeghi is NOT an "expat" and he is considered the Grand Master of the Santur. Why> because he is the last of Saba's students who is still alive, performing and continues to teach. And the geographical location of a musician has NOTHING to do with the quality of musician that they are. So if he lived in Iran he would be a better musician? How about if he lived in France? would that make him a French santur player?

...."at least not by the Persian musicians I know" which musicians do you know? name them. Persian pop singers don't count.

There is a lot of hate and animosity on this page, both from Iraqi people who have been battling the historical origin of the PERSIAN SANTUR.

and from Persian santur players who are upset because they can't fill out the required fields to include themselves in the notable musician sections (probably because they haven't achieved what they need, to be included).

MANOOCHEHR SADEGHI WILL ALWAYS BE CONSIDERED GREATEST SANTUR PLAYER OF ALL TIME. NO ONE HAS EVER SURPASSED HIS TECHNIQUE, SPEED OR STYLE BOTH IN PERSIAN CLASSICAL AND IN IMPROVISATIONAL MUSIC.

THAT MAY BOTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE NEGATIVE AND DECIDE TO COME ON HERE AND MAKE STUPID COMMENTS = BUT THE TRUTH HURTS AND IT'S SAD THAT WE ARE ARGUING OVER MUSIC AND MUSICIANS.

CONFUCIUS SAID: IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY: STICK A CORK IN IT

Santurman (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:58, 7 June 2014 (UTC)


Santur makers? None of that is cited. Is someone trying to push their own company? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.169.8.127 (talk) 18:43, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


"there is an American company named Santur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.74.122.52 (talk) 23:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


I added the Santur Makers on there, It's important information....& I'm trying to find citations to back them up: Nazemi died with his company over 25 years ago. He made Strativarious type Santurs that are known to be the best sounding instruments ever made. And Ali Bahmani was the only craftsman to come close and he just died last year and they auctioned off his factory in pieces.

So no one is advertising their companies. It's like mentioning Steinway in the Piano page in Wikipedia.

The Santur company is in northern California and it is an electronics company that was sold and reopened into Neo Tech...... has nothing to do with the Santur Santurman (talk) 10:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Santoor[edit]

  • Oppose merge. As of this comment we have six clear and cogent arguments against the merge, versus one comment (Jan 2006) from a user who has no evidence beyond similar pronunciation and who clearly is not speaking in terms of the two different instruments in question. The proposed-merge note in the main article is confusing and it will divert some users to a different instrument. Has that note really sat there in the article for 3.5 years, despite the obvious agreement here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.3.251 (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Why you brought Santoor in Greece and Babylon (a Great Semitic civilization) we all are aware. There is no such instrument in this region. Ardeshir — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.73.207 (talk) 19:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Oppose merge. NOTE: Because of transliteration issues, those terms are sometimes confused, but the clear standard in English is santur for the persian instrument and santoor for the Indian instrument. Therefore, disambiguation between the two terms is actually an important goal for both articles in the English Wikipedia, and the presence of the merge request bar itself is likely misleading. Santur and santoor are entirely separate instruments; their physical construction, tuning, playing styles, cultural history and repertoire are different. --quelasol —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC).
  • Oppose merge. I don't think this article should be merged with santoor. This is like wanting to merge the setar article with the sitar articles because the names sound similar. The physical differences, playing styles, and famous musicians between the Persian and its derivative Indian santurs are different enough to merit different articles. I think a simple renaming of the articles to maybe "Santoor (Persian)" and "Santoor (Indian)" would be sufficient. There have been many deletes (by anonymous editors) in the Indian santoor article concerning the Persian santur, and I feel that if the articles get merged most of my contributions about the Persian santur will eventually get deleted. --jonsafari 23:01, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Pronunciation of "سنتور" in Farsi is both of Santoor and Santur.I think these articles must merge. If there are different you can write.(مهدی 01:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC))
  • Oppose merge. While Indian santoor and Persian santur are both hammered dulcimers, they are certainly two separate instruments with their own distinct histories and playing styles. The articles should absolutely remain separate, regardless of the similarity of the instruments' names. I completely agree with Jonsafari above regarding distinction between the names and perhaps renaming the pages to "Santoor (Persian)" and "Santoor (Indian)" as well as providing disambiguation links at the top for anyone who might be looking for one and finding the other. The santur page could then redirect to the Santoor (Persian) page. Thanks! --Swellbow 03:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge. These are two separate instruments in the hammered dulcimer family, constructed in different fashions and in different nations, from different materials, with different tunings. One is used for Persian music and the other for Hindustani (Indian) music. Badagnani 08:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge. I also oppose the merge and while the two types of "santour" are not as different as "setar" and "sitar" are, there are sufficient historical and physical differences to necessitate two separate articles. I concur in the suggestion of having two articles called "Santoor (Persian)" and "Santoor (Indian)" or at least having a "disambiguation" explanation on top of each article, directing the user to the other article for clarification.--Smalek 20:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge.

The santour appeared after the santur. Further, the construction is different. Dogru144 21:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

santour / hammered dulcimer[edit]

Why isn't the santour cross-referenced on the hammered dulcimer page? There is only a vague reference to Iran as the origin of the dulcimer.

That should be asked on the hammered dulcimer page. –jonsafari 18:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added it to the Hammered dulcimer#See also. Klbrain (talk) 17:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Spelling of "santur"[edit]

  • I think the various spellings of "santur" should be included in this article. The current spelling of "santur" does not read the same way as it is pronounced in Farsi. Other spellings (most commonly "santour" and "santoor") should be included (perhaps with a disambiguation link) to keep true to the actual pronunciation of the word. TarTar Sauce 16:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


I'll add other pronunciations of the name. BTW, santour already redirects to here. –jonsafari 18:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

History[edit]

Please! Let's have some history for this article. Dogru144 21:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


According to most credible resources, other than nationalistic inspired ones, the santur was invented in ancient Babylonian (1600-911 BCE) and neo-Assyrian (911-612 BCE) eras.. At some point, the Persian empire ruled that part of the world (known as Mesopotamia). But, the Persian empire ended its rule of Babylon/Assyria and, today these lands are part of current day Iraq. This is also cited by a Persian santur website. See http://santoori.com/santoor_tuning_chart.html

Iraqi classical music (Iraqi Maqam music), unlike Iranian classical music, used the santur 100% of the time, along with a spike fiddle called "Joza (djoze, jozeh) by Iraqis. Please discuss and include this information. It seems like this wiki page is dominated by mostly overly emotional and nationalistic posters. Babylon does not exist today, this should make it neutral since, Iraqis do not claim it to be "theirs", unlike Persians.

74.57.65.117 (talk) 22:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Totally agree with you. It was invented in ancient babylon, but this article starts by saying "Persian" instruments... which is pure nonsense.. Persian nationalists are extemely sensitive but dominating the Wikipedia world... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.210.238.186 (talk) 08:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Bad Link[edit]

Link to related instrument "Qanun" under picture does not link to a related instrument, but to an article about Islamic Law. Link needs to lead to "Kanun" but I don't remember how to make that change. Garbagemania (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

TECHNICAL INFO FOR SANTUR[edit]

Below is a proposed paragraph to correct mistakes that are currently on the page.

I shortened my last post and figured out how to edit a lot better myself and placed the correct citations.

Santur:

The santur (also santūr, santour, santoor ) (Persian: سنتور) is a Persian hammered dulcimer. It is a trapezoid-shaped box often made of walnut wood. The mallets (Mezrabs) are feather-weight and are held by the thumb, index and middle fingers. The 72 string Persian santur has two sets of bridges, providing a range of approximately three octaves. The right-hand strings are made of a copper or brass strings, while the left-hand strings are made of steel. Two rows of 9 bridges called "kharak" (total of 18 kharaks) divide the santur into three octaves. Over each bridge crosses four strings spanning horizontally across the right and left side of the instrument. There are three sections of nine pitches: each for the bass, middle and higher octave called Poshte Kharak (behind the left bridges) comprising 27 notes all together. The top "F" note is repeated 3 times, creating a total of 24 separate tones in the Santur. The Persian santur is primarily tuned to a variety of different diatonic scales utilizing 1/4 tones (semi-tones) which are designated into 12 Dastgah's (modes) of Persian classical music. These 12 Dastgah's are the repertory of Persian classical music known as the Radif.

Derivations: Similar forms of the santur have been present in neighboring cultures like India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Armenia, Turkey, Iraq and Greece. The Indian santoor is wider, more rectangular and has more strings. Its corresponding mallets are also held differently played with a different technique. The Chinese yangqin and the Greek santouri also derived from the santur. The eastern Europe version of the santur called the cimballum which is much larger and chromatic is used as an accompanying instrument in gypsy music.

--Santurman (talk) 07:52, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

On your last comment above—"so I'm gathering the citations to support what we wrote below"—exactly right. Wikipedia deals in verifiable claims, so it will indeed be important that you gather reliable sources for which you can write a citation that supports each claim. I will happy to help you learn to do good citation formats. Just ping me on my Talk page when you have the sources, including titles, publisher, date of publication, etc. – and I will help show you an easy citation format that you can learn and utilize for your other citations. Cheers. N2e (talk) 00:47, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

UPDATES FOR SANTUR[edit]

I spent a long time cleaning up this page. Unfortunately there's an IP user who keeps altering my work and it's really lame. I learned how to edit and cite references. He removes my work from a PHD from a non-profit organization dedicated to preserving persian music. and then Cites a Blog with a bunch of BS Iraqi names of people who don't exist or have any verifiable data. lame-o

FROM WIKIPEDIA - EDIT A PAGE -

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable. This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database, Cracked.com, CBDB.com, and so forth, with the exception of material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users.

"Blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs. Some news outlets host interactive columns they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control. Posts left by readers may never be used as sources; see WP:NEWSBLOG

I spent a long time on this page. coming here cleaning up drama from people who have a stick up their rear.

This page looks better than it ever did. I'd like to keep it that way.


I have a lot more to offer:  The construction, tuning methods, samples of info students need.



Santurman (talk) 11:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

U mad bro?

File:Santur babylon.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Citations and sources are needed[edit]

Please be sure that all additions to the Santur article are verifiable. Many existing claims are currently not verifiably cited. New items added to the article should have inline citations for each claim made.

As a courtesy to editors who may have added unsourced claims previously, before Wikipedia citation policy is what it is today, some of the existing unsourced claims have been tagged {{citation needed}} to allow some time for sources to be added. Cheers. N2e (talk) 04:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Constant Vandalism of this page continues[edit]

User: Iraqisantur keeps removing cited-referenced material on this page. This isn't a battle or an extension of the Iraq-Iran 10 year war. This user made a page called Iraqi Santur. I went on that page and noticed a bunch of un-cited references to an unverified Blog with a bunch of misinformation on it. On the Iraqisantur Talk page there's a message about this users references and citations:

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Iraqi Santur has been reverted. Your edit here to Iraqi Santur was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (http://iraqimaqam.blogspot.com/p/musicians.html, http://iraqimaqam.blogspot.com/p/musicians.html) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If the external link you inserted or changed was to a blog, forum, free web hosting service, fansite, or similar site (see 'Links to avoid', #11), then please check the information on the external site thoroughly. Note that such sites should probably not be linked to if they contain information that is in violation of the creator's copyright (see Linking to copyrighted works), or they are not written by a recognised, reliable source. Linking to sites that you are involved with is also strongly discouraged (see conflict of interest). If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 20:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Santurman (talk) 01:00, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Any reason not to merge in Iraqi Santur?[edit]

It appears to be a pure WP:Coatrack offshoot. Is there any reason we can't merge it into the article and just ensure we include sufficient coverage of the Iraqi variant? MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I strongly support that Iraqi Santur and Santur (Persian instrument) both merged to Santur--Monfie (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Mistakes[edit]

The santur is not of Babylonian origin (see well researched book by Paul M. Gifford), and the Assyrian instruments are angular harps played horizontally, not hammered dulcimers or any kind of zithers for that matter. 173.89.236.187 (talk) 04:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge proposal[edit]

The merge proposal is there for a long time. Some admin has to merge, as both the articles describe same musical instrument, without any ambiguity. - Rayabhari (talk) 08:30, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done Klbrain (talk) 12:54, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Etymology of Santur[edit]

It seems to be an old tradition to believe that the word santur is derived from the Persian sad tār meaning "hundred strings". Only pure (Iranian) nationalists maintain that – the same in India, where "Santoor" has been existing not before the 1950s, and it came from Kashmir ("Sufyana Kalam" – Kashmiri Classical Music). Etymologically it is obvious that this term came from Ancient Greek Psalterion (Koine-Greek after Alexander of Makedonia: Psaltírion), and from there it went to Aramaic (the then Lingua franca of the entire Near and Middle East, at the beginning together with Greek), Psantrin, and from there to Arabic Santir (سنطير) and eventually Santur (سنطور and سنتور). It used to be the term for a psalterium, and later the name of santur was given to the hammered dulcimer in the MIddle East which was depicted not before 17th century AD (in Isfahan).--Imruz (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)