Talk:Seven Sages of Greece

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Comments[edit]

You must delete word greek from this article because from all the sources it is shown that word greek is created late at 15th century and the word greek was not in use durin 500 bc and 600 bc. You don't have the right to describe a period of time with a wrong name as name greek is. You shall call the period 500 bc and 600 bc with its right name Hellas, Hyllas, Helios, Ilion, Illyricum, illyrian and hellenes for the period of 500 bc and 600 bc but you don't have the right to use word Greece and greek for this period. Greece did not existed in 500 bc and it is illiteratelly wrong action to name Greece in that period. Please this is an historical information and we have to be very careful of using the right terms describin historical facts and places. Please kindly remove word greek and Greece from this article as they dont belong to the truth.˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.32.20.18 (talk) 12:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I've just deleted huge sections of un-sourced argumentative rubbish from this article; the quality of which was so poor that it was literally than useless. Howlers included:

- Arguing that the Spartans throwing of Persian envoys down a well proved that the Greeks as a whole were anti-literate (firstly the Spartans were atypical Greeks, secondly - DOH?)

- That the exiling of an (unspecified) playwright by an (unspecified) city proved the same (I can think of cases were playwrights were punished - for using plays to make unpopular political points - but never for being literate!)

- That because a sausage seller in a comedy makes a speech in favour of democracy and repeats it we can be sure that Greeks were anti-intellectual.

Frankly, this article consisted of almost nothing except someone's very strange personal opinions. [[[User:Umptious|Umptious]] (talk) 14:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)]

Oh - another ahistorical anti-fact: the author of the article claimed that the exile of the Pythgorans was evidence of hatred of the literate. In fact the Pyth'ns were exiled because they had succeeded in taking power over Croton and several other Greek Italian cities - the events and motives behind them are well understood and the Pyth'ns were not hated *because* of their literacy, but for their taking of control.

The extraordinary thing about the previous version of this article is that someone had used such a trivial subject as a hook to hang so much erroneous argument - and no one challenged him. Very worrying. [[[User:Umptious|Umptious]] (talk) 15:06, 24 December 2007 (UTC)]

I believe there is a connection between the Seven Sages of Greece who rose to prominence in the late 7th Century... and the Latin League in Italy. Specifically, I believe that Greek Democratic ideals began ebbing away at the fringes of the Etruscan Empire in Italy by means of the Greeks in "Magna Graecia" in Southern Italy. The Greeks in Magna Graecia (S. Italy) would have been privy to the rising tide of Democratic ideals and social upheaval associated with the Seven Sages and their Tyrant benefactors who overthrew the old monarchies of Greece. I believe that the rise of the proto-Republican Latin League in Italy, in the 7th century BCE, can be attributed to the spread of these Greek Democratic ideals from the Greek homelands in the East to S. Italy (Magna Graecia) and thence to Central Italy (Latin League).

Has anyone read the section in "The Seven Wonder of the World: And other Numerical Questions" about The Seven Sages? Just a wondering. I needed a few things cleared up about it. :0)

129.11.77.197 22:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC) What about the Seven Sages of ancient Babylonia?

What about them? If you want an entry, make it yourself. --82.2.41.228 20:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Do the Seven Sages of Greece have anything to do with Saptarishi, Which translated in English means "Seven Sages". In Indian mythology these Seven Sages are considered to be the protectors and guides of the entire creation. - Edit by user ksaravanakumar

Citations[edit]

This article is in serious need of inline citations. It's as if the whole this is OR. --Kimontalk 19:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. "The Greeks loved it"? The tone of some of the passages reminds me of the late ninteenth century historians but without any of the evidence backing it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.247.152.24 (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Pythia[edit]

The current version of the article has these two claims: "These succinct utterances never gave a direct answer. They were always in the form of an enigma, or riddle." Of course they are unsourced, as almost everything else in the article. But my problem with these 2 claims is that they are false. Isokrates 13:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, consider this: "The Pythia, as she was called, when asked a question (and paid for the answer) would come under the influence of an intoxicating substance in the temple (perhaps ethylene gas rising from ground faults) and make an utterance, which would be made readable and versified by the priests." It's based mainly on mere legend. Most modern scholars now agree that we have no good reason to think that the Pythia delivered incoherent utterances. Plus, a great many modern scholars doubt the suggestion that the Pythia was under the influence of gases rising from cracks in the ground. Isokrates 13:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

–If such a "great many" modern scholars know these things, why not edit the page and source them yourself? While the tone here is pleasing and fun to read, you're absolutely right that it's not up to Wikipedia standards. I'd source the material myself if I had your knowledge of the subject. (As for the earlier mention of "The Greeks Loved it!", I think I'll take the liberty of deleting that myself. That one's a no-brainer, and as I have no brain, I gladly accept the task. :D ) 72.128.216.92 12:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A Baffling Claim in the current article[edit]

The current version of the article includes the following: "Pausanias must have seen the engravings, as he wanted to substitute Myson of Chenae, who appears in Plato's list, instead of Periander, a tyrant. This is evidence that the basis of selection was not general wisdom but the ability to produce great maxims (paroimia)." I've thought about it for some time; but I can't understand why anyone would say this. First of all - never mind, for a second, the bit of "evidence" in question here - I think there's no reason at all to think that the Seven (whoever is included) were designated "sage/wise" because of their ability to produce great maxims and not their general wisdom. For one thing, the evidence for many of the maxims attributed them is shakey at best. More importantly, even if they were known for certain maxims, they clearly were held "sage/wise" because of the wisdom it took to think of such insights; is this sort of wisdom anything other than general in nature? Also, we know that most (if not all) of the Seven were influential political men; that alone would establish them as "wise" in the mind of a typical ancient Greek. Now we can consider the bit of "evidence" that is supposed (according to the claims quoted above) to show that the Seven were selected not because of general wisdom but because of ability to produce great maxims: i.e., Pausanias' wanting to include Myson among the Seven rather than Periander. First of all, there is no good evidence to think that either of the two had a greater ability to produce maxims. Also, there is no particular reason to think that Myson had less "general wisdom" than Periander, even though we do know that the latter was a tyrant (but we should keep in mind that the former, according to Diogenes, was son of a tyrant). So I don't get the claims. Isokrates 20:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

I really enjoyed reading the article regarding the "Seven Sages of Greece" & find it great loss that it is taken out. For those with more in-depth interests it had good links to follow up. A lot about ancient culture is unknown to us or even if we find things "more scientifically up-to-date" the essence is about pondering on the wisdom and here the article gets a top rating from me. At the end of the day it is for anybody truly interested in the Greek sages and their timeless quotes not interesting if the oracle ate or ate not laurel leaves. But what is definitely of importance is the wisdom they spoke & point of view & creed by which the Greeks lived! I would really like to see this article restored & perhaps we could work on it together? Would be great. The points and discoveries of science will constantly change (e.g.as we see with the pyramids - how often did "science" change their age - yet their wondrous beauty is unchanged and that is what leads to more timeless discoveries of phi & geometry! This is the wonderful part of that architecture and that which leads the mind on! Their factual age is the least important part!). --Proserpina1 (talk) 09:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Added Some Content & Reliable Sources[edit]

I've recently added some much-needed reliable content & sources to the article. Also, I removed the fancy List that someone added a while back. It was not properly sourced and is, in any case, not "standard" by any reasonable scholarly standard, particularly considering the fact (now explained in the article) that there was wide disagreement over whether the pithy maxims can be legitimately attributed to the Sages and over which sage was supposed to have introduced which saying (see especially Diogenes Laertius 1.41-42). However, given how fancy the list was, I am loath to cosign it to the trash heap, so I've pasted below, if anyone is interested in viewing it. It's just too bad that whoever it was who put all the work into it didn't bother to source it properly or raise any of the scholarly issues just mentioned.... Isokrates (talk) 18:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Sage Original Translation
Thales of Miletus Ἐγγύα, πάρα δ᾽ ἄτα. "To bring surety brings ruin."
Solon of Athens Γνῶθι σεαυτόν. "Know thyself."
Chilon of Sparta Μη προτρεχέτω η γλώττα της διάνοιας. "Do not let your tongue outrun your intellect."
Pittacus of Mytilene Γίγνωσκε καιρόν. "Know thine opportunity."
Bias of Priene Οἱ πλεῖστοι κακοί. "All men are wicked."
Cleobulus of Lindos Μέτρον ἄριστον. "Moderation is impeccable."
Periander of Corinth "Forethought in all things."

Chilon and the militarization of sparta?[edit]

Any known source for this?

Bazuz (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Date format reversion[edit]

I have found no discussion or consensus reached about changing the date format from BC/AD to BCE/CE, which should have been done as stated in WP:ERA before such a change was made. As a result, this can be classed as a violation of policy and as such will be reverted unless there are any objections. Dalek (talk) 12:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

BC was introduced in 2004. BCE has been in use since this 2005 edit, 11 edits later. I propose BCE be kept --JimWae (talk) 21:07, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
BCE has been used in this article for six years, no less, and it seems to have done no harm at all. I agree that it should be kept. Haploidavey (talk) 22:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

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