Talk:Shadow (Babylon 5)

A member of the Guild of Copy Editors, Stfg, reviewed a version of this article for copy editing on 20 March 2012. However, a major copy edit was inappropriate at that time because of the issues specified below, or the other tags now found on this article. Once these issues have been addressed, and any related tags have been cleared, please tag the article once again for {{copyedit}}. The Guild welcomes all editors with a good grasp of English. Visit our project page if you are interested in joining!

Misc[edit]

"During normal flight, these spines are oriented towards the rear, but in order to attack, the ship rotates so that they curve forward"

This is incorrect. I suppose this was gleaned from the episode where for the 1st time the Vorlons join the fight vs. the Shadows prompted by Sheridan, as in that one some ships are seen "backing away" from the site of the most recent attack on the Brakiri trading routes with the LONAW.

However, the Shadow battlecruisers, depicted in the article and of whom the autors speaks, are often seen during the show to be 1st) propulsionless (that is, with no visible means to generate motion) and most importantly 2nd) moving in any direction, on any axis. Verify this by watching the two longest battle scenes involving the Shadows as follows:

A) The end of the last Shadow war, battle of Coriana 6. The battlecruisers are seen moving with the splines forward, and (in this and countless other episodes) having an arc of fire of 160 degrees in 2 dimensions (the _main_ gun emplacements are, as stated, dead centre in the forward section, just where ST-Starfleet's ships deflector dish is located).

B) The Narn-Centauri war, Narn attack on Gorash 7 -protected by Shadow forces through the Morden-Mollari alliance. In this one also the ships are seen to be moving and simultaneously firing forward, but at the end you'll see one of their ships collecting a "wounded mate". Observe carefully the way that it does this, put this together with all the other movement capabilities seen in other shots in other episodes and you will also come to the inescapable conclusion that like the Vorlon fighters, Shadow battlecruisers can move in any direction, on any axis (see that specific episode+scene with the Vorlons entering the war and 'Thirdspace' for verification on Vorlon fighters)

The ships that fly in the fashion indicated in the article are in fact their smallest, the fighters aka "Spitfires". These fly with the "pointy end" aimed backwards and in this are unique for the 'conventional' Shadow vessels. See the episode "War Without End" (pt. 2 i think) for verification on the Shadows fighters direction of flight and fire)

I can provide movies and/or screenshots, or a list of episodes with relative motion/firing direction to the truly unconvinced but i'd be grateful if you verified it by yourself.

- - - More Later - - -

"three pairs of glowing orange eyes"

Nonononono.

The Shadows have an odd (as in weird) number of eyes in an odd formation. 14 Eyes total divided into 4 groups.

Superior: Two sets of three arranged (slanted upward) roughly like this "O OO OO O"

Inferior: Two sets of four arranged (slanted upward) to align perfectly under the superior sets

Because of this, at first look they seem to have 16, in fact there's one missing in each of the upper sets, making 14. Verify this with episodes where they are seen clearly, or for a massive close-up refer to the two episodes where the Shadow's telepathic guardian, the "Eye" (as it is referred to) is shown:

Series 4: Best shot to look out for is on episode 1, "Hour of the wolf", see the 14 eyes in all their glory, because the "coronas" on the lower set of eyes overlap it's a bit difficult to count them at first, but after a few passes on the two scenes where they are shown you _will_ notice there's four on each side's lower sets, especially the right one where they are most visible, as they are aimed almost straight towards the camera.

Series 2: Ivanova enters the Great Machine on Epsilon 3 on Draal's invitation (actually he invited Sheridan but Ivanova actually attended), the Shadow's guardian soon detects her telepathic presence and appears to her. The above scene is seen again, in somewhat lower detail.

==[edit]

As for what information is provided in books outside the main B5 project, and is said to be considered "Canon", I disagree. The vast majority of the episodes where written by JMS himself, and although there are some retcons and inconsistencies here and there, if the information presented in the series conflicts with that presented in any other media (games/books included), I would rather take the series evidence as canon, as that comes straight from the horse's mouth.

This article is actully full of inaccuracies so there's no point in writing dozens of posts like the two above, if someone has the patience it should be rewritten, otherwise give me a buzz and i'll have a go.

Better picture[edit]

There should be a better image of a shadow in the article, there are some cases where they're shown more plainly, such as the intro of Interludes and Examinations. --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 22:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a second image, i believe it has a better view of the Shadows, i've left the old one as well. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not Helpful[edit]

This article begins with the quote

In contrast to the Vorlons who ask "Who are you?" the Shadows ask the question of "What do you want? centering towards desire rather than identity

This clearly is only meaningful to people who are already familiar with the setting, and should be explained or removed.

original research[edit]

I added the tag since there are hardly any references to the text, which makes some of the paragraphs seem like original research, e.g. "The Shadows are presumed to have evolved from arachnoid creatures." 129.16.49.138 16:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:B5 shadows 2.jpg[edit]

Image:B5 shadows 2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:B5 shadows.jpg[edit]

Image:B5 shadows.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Section on Government[edit]

Where did this information come from? Maybe I missed the part about the "Pale and Silent King" and the "Priests of the Fallen Midnight" in the series, but it sounds like the author made that up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.211.81.167 (talk) 00:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "Shadow Planet Killer" section[edit]

Forgive me, but I could not help but notice that the section on the Death Cloud (and maybe the other ships, too, I didn´t get to that) is an exact, word by word copy of the corresponding page on B5Tech.com. As far as I know, that content is copyrighted. If it was posted without permission, someone should contact Brandon Bray, the owner of B5Tech.com, and at least ask that permission. Of course, if Brandon Bray is the one who posted it in the first place, this is a moot point.

Also note that a lot of information on B5Tech.com is *not* canon, it is openly described as informed conjecture or educated guess. But then again, if this page were to contain only canon information, it wouldn´t be much over a screen long...

About me: I am not part of the B5 Wikiproject (or whatever its name is), though I am considering signing up. I am just a fan of Babylon 5 (who has seen all the episodes and movies and read B5Tech three times over :-) ). I am as much interested as anyone in B5 being represented as fully as possible here, but I do not think this should be achieved by "borrowing" the work of others.

link to B5Tech to verify my claim: http://www.b5tech.com/shadows/shadowships/shadowcloud.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Misacek01 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted. Yes, it applies to the other ships too. Your link is dead now, but the text is still available on the old version of B5tech. I've asked the copyvio team to investigate it -- see Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2012 March 20. --Stfg (talk) 14:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"In-universe" criticism unwarranted[edit]

I don't understand the "in-universe" style criticism as applied to this article (or sci-fi/fantasy generally). It is clearly stated at the head of most sections here that we're dealing with a fictional TV universe; to try to emphasize repeatedly within the section that it's fiction strikes me as both unnecessary and conducive of an awkward style. I see no serious danger that anyone would read the Babylon 5 articles the way they read articles about, say, London or the Emperor Claudius. 68.58.135.168 (talk) 10:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed fan made story elements.[edit]

The section on creating the show ships and information on the technomages was uncited and likely made up. I own the "Darkness & Light" role play book. It is debatable if the information in the book is cannon, and even then the information I removed is not in that book. In fact the there is a section about technomages that vastly differs from the information I removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluelightnight (talk • contribs) 22:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GOCEreviewed[edit]

On account of the in-universe character and the shortage of references. --Stfg (talk) 13:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And of the copy-paste problem (see above). --Stfg (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:15, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Physiology[edit]

Where does the idea that we see Shadows in encounter suits come from? If I recall correctly, there's nothing in the show to make clear that this is the case, and I haven't seen it definiteively stated anywhere else. If it has been, definitely needs a reference.