Talk:Shining Path/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Mid-90s

A few things that might be worth using out of Calvin Sims, "Blasts Propel Peru's Rebels From Defunct To Dangerous", New York Times, August 5, 1996. p. A6, either as citation for something already here or as additional material; byline dates the article as August 3, but it's in the August 5 issue

"The guerrillas bombed a central police station charged with protecting the Peruvian Congress and the house of a general who is the military chief in a region where the rebels have a stronghold… the chief of Peru's anti-terrorist police [General Carlos Domínguez] resigned."

"…the most successful [attacks] the Shining Path has undertaken since [Guzmán's capture]."

"…a civil war that has killed more than 35,000 people and cost $25 billion in damages since 1980."

"'…Shining Path has started to recover from its long demise,' said Carlos Tipia, a leading Peruvian researcher in terrorism."

"In the last 18 months… about 450 people have died… and the Government has detained more than 500,000 suspects…"

"Fujimori[:] 'The attacks do not signify that we have let our guard down… I repeat — we guarantee citizens' security, and the iron fist approach will continue.'"

"With the capture of its central leaders in 1993, Shining Path divided into two factions: one that heeded Mr. Guzmán's call for peace and another that continued the fight under the leadership of Óscar Ramírez Durán…"

"But terrorism experts said that contacts within the grop indicated that Shining Path has now splintered into numerous factions. § The factions are being coordinated by a new group of leaders who had been part of the Shining Path hierarchy during its infancy in the 1970's but who had left the group after a dispute with Mr. Guzmán over the timing of his decision to take up arms in 1980."

There is more, but it is a copyrighted document, so I'm trying to reproduce only what seems most salient. - Jmabel | Talk 06:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory sources

this source and this source give two different numbers of people killed by Shining Path in 2003. Why does it matter? Because this article makes a claim of how many people were killed that year, and cites both of these sources. I guess that the answer is to just delete the information from the article. --Descendall 06:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a claim of how many people were killed that year. Those sources are just used for the breaking up of training camps and freeing indigenous farmers. Is it already removed?--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's still there:

"also for the year, 5 police officers, 2 ronderos, and a community leader were killed by Shining Path, and 6 Shining Path members were killed and 209 captured." One of the sources says

"Sendero killed eight persons during the year: five members of the police, two ronderos (members of rural peasant self-defense forces), and a community leader in the Huallaga Valley." The other says

"Six military and three self-defense personnel were killed in 2003, while six SL militants were killed and 209 captured."

--Descendall 15:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

God, I must be blind. I didn't remove the info, but I included both numbers and put the contradictory refs after them. Do you still think they should come out altogether? I can't decide, as we've now verified the information and pointed out the discrepancy.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing multiple sources and noting the discrepancy is exactly the right thing to do. - Jmabel | Talk 01:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit war

I recently made a mistake in trying to restore the article after AAAAA reverted yet again. Thankfully this was corrected by a subsequent editor. AAAAA, I really wish you'd knock it off.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Official site?

What is the basis for claiming that a Geocities page with no links out is their "official" site? - Jmabel | Talk 21:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It does have links, check out http://www.geocities.com/pcp_bandera_roja/ Anyway, I don't think they have an "official" site or even an official position anymore. I've read a few things by people who claim to be spokemen for the group. All of them denouce each other for backing Guzman's plea for peace or not backing it or for being revisionist, etc. It's such a mess that I think you could make an argument that the organization that launched a war on May 17th 1980 does not even exist anymore. Unless someone who has actually waded through all the dogmatic pseudointellectual bullshit that these Maoist Peruvian exiles have been writing on the internet can make a strong case that the geocities site is "official," I think we should call it something else. --Descendall 22:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The only links I see on the page are ads (pretty ironic). Am I missing something?

Again, is there any basis to believe that this page is "official" for anything? I see no indication that it isn't just one Senderista or Senderista wannabe who put up a Geocities site. It's pretty hard to believe that any actual Marxist organization, let alone Maoist organization, would set up an official site that takes Yahoo ads.

Indeed, is there any basis to link to this thing at all? - Jmabel | Talk 03:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You gotta click on the hammer and sickle. It leads to http://www.geocities.com/pcp_bandera_roja/inicio/mlmpg.html --Descendall 04:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Aha! Looks like the revolution does not breed competent web monkeys. I missed that entirely.

Again, though is there any evidence that this site is anything other than a wannabe with a Geocities site? - Jmabel | Talk 00:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Drugs, geography and social base

On the added template there are allegations of "possible narcotics trafficking". This is not verified, and the evidence is that there is a continuing PCP column operating in the Upper Huallaga Valley. Because the PCP has supporters among the GROWERS of coca, that is not AT ALL the same as being "traffickers." Coca production has long been a cornerstone of the Peruvian economy, so there is no surprise that that a section of FARMERS (who happen to grow coca) support an extra-state military force that has protected them against the ACTUAL traffickers. Evo Morales held up coca leaves in the UN... obviously there is a deeper issue here than "trafficking." I have never seen a single allegation that the PCP moves coca/cocaine over borders or itself processes/develops drugs. In fact, they have a strongly anti-drug program, which is itself distinct from criminalizing the working classes themselves compelled into this economy. Without a verifiable source on the "narcotics trafficking" allegations, I will remove it pending a consensus. In the Stacks

I'm not sure I understand. Are you actually arguing that the coca grown in the UHV is grown exclusively for chewing in Indigenous areas, and that the Shining Path is "protecting" the cocaleros from the traffickers who want to pay them for their crops? Let's not forget that the Shining Path's "anti-drug program" includes, according to Guzman, "selling the imperialists the rope with which we will hang them," as Lenin said, by importing drugs to poision the Yankees. --Descendall 04:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, note that the article says "The government claims that Proseguir is operating in alliance with drug traffickers." --Descendall 04:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Just putting "Shining Path Cocaine" into google, I see that allegations of their ties to drug traffickers have been made by everyone from a former DEA agent who was based in Peru[1] to StopTheDrugWar.com [2], from The Guardian[3] to the AP[4], as well as in scholorly articles[5]. Obviously, the Peruvian government also makes these charges all the time[6], as does Juan Ferrero[7] and the New York Times[8] as well as the Washinginton Post.[9]. And that's what I got from the first few pages of a google search. Believe me, there have been plenty of allegations that the Shining Path "moves coca/cocaine over borders or itself processes/develops drugs." --Descendall 04:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering the DEA has moved drugs over the borders, and has used bogus coca-eradication programs to fund counter-insurgencies in several countries, I don't think they are a reliable source. If they had ever been caught doing so, we can be sure it would be not just documented – but a lead story. Unless Evo Morales is considered a cocaine-trafficker, then the pejorative use of the term is just a way of saying farmers in coca-producing countries have no right to protection from the ACTUAL trafficers who have consistently supported counter-insurgencies in both Peru and Columbia. See Vladmir Monetesinos. Not one of the linked allegations has any evidence BESIDES the allegation listed.In the Stacks 19:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, I am saying that organzing campesinos is fundamentally different from running the business. The workers are not the owners... hence the civil war.In the Stacks 19:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Here we go. We are not saying anything about the campesinos and their rights, or about Evo Morales, by including the often-repeated allegation that Shining Path is involved in drug trafficing. The DEA is not a reliable source? What would you be willing to accept? What about all those sources Descendall listed above? The fact is various groups and individuals have suspected them of drug trafficing or involvement in the drug trade, enough that it deserves a mention here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

None of these sources include anything but the vagues accusations. In a country where Montesinos was a literal narco-attorney, and manager of state, the accusation is something else. We all know that coca/cocaine production was a foundation of the Peruvian economy, why is it a surprise that the class struggle took place there as much as anywhere? Protecting campesinos from the cocaine bourgeoise (interpenetrated with the military/state) is not AT ALL the same as being an organization dedicated to "trafficking." They are different in kind. The utility of this claim, and hence its ubiquity, is different from its verifiability. In this very particular case, making it seem as if the sale of harmful drugs is the very basis of unity of the political party PCP is utterly ridiculous.In the Stacks 18:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I pretty much give up. In the stacks' analysis is simplistic and utterly OR. In the real world, narcotics traffickers aren't very political. They support whatever group helps them make money. When a left-wing group hampers the ability of the state to create a monopoly on violence, narcotics traffickers support it. When a right-wing group threatens the ability of cocaleros to demand higher wagers, narcotics traffickers support it. When state corrupt state forces allow narcotics traffickers to run their business, narcotics traffickers support them. The idea that the DEA and the narcotics traffickers are somehow aligned with each other just because they're both evil bourgeoisie imperialists is stupid. It's as stupid as the idea that the cocaleros and the Shining Path were aligned with each other because they were both part of the heroic proletariat. Even if you wanted to analyze the situation from a Marxist prospective, and I don't, it still wouldn't make any sense. After all, one of Marx's key ideas was that capitalism was fundamentally doomed because capitalists will support the very movements and conditions that will ultimately overthrow the bourgeoisie. So even Marx would have no problem with the assertation that narcotraffickers back the Shining Path in their quest to undermine state legitimacy. But that's all neither here nor there because the situation in Peru is more complex than dogmatic Marxism will allow. After all, that's why the Shining Path lost. --Descendall 19:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

In the Stacks, you almost had me until "cocaine bourgeoise". I think you're reading too much into the bald statement that the Shining Path may be involved in the drug trade. Decendall listed several diverse sources containing allegations that they are, from a former DEA agent to the New York Times to an anti-drug war group. Whatever your personal take on the subject, the suspicion is verified and worth including, so I readded it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 06:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Tendentious inclusion

Under "alliances" in the infobox "possibly narcotics traffickers[10][11]" strikes me as very tendentious. We could say the same about almost anyone operating on any side of any conflict in the Andes in the last 30 years. Normally, we do not. And blind-URL citations to restricted sites do not particularly inspire confidence in the quality and relevance of the citation. - Jmabel | Talk 08:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed.In the Stacks 15:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This is rather funny, now that the Shining Path is back in the news with the new video from Comrade Artemio. Let's take a look at what the recent news reports say about the remnants of the Shinining Path. I remind you, I limit myself only to what has been written in the past three days.

"The rebels now are thought to provide protection for drug traffickers."[12]

"presumably focusing its efforts on providing security and support for drug traffickers"[13]

"Analysts say the group now largely offers protection for drug traffickers"[14]

"Shining Path factions continue to operate in the coca-growing jungle region, where several hundred guerrillas provide protection for cocaine traffickers."[15]

"The rebels who now provide protection for cocaine traffickers in Peru's remotest areas"[16]

"Además, en una entrevista al diario Correo, Oscar Ramírez Durand, el 'camarada Feliciano' acusó a 'Artemio' de trabajar para narcotraficantes de la zona"[17]

"por acción de un Sendero Luminoso articulado al fenómeno del narcotráfico."[18]

"operan en una solapada alianza con el narcotráfico."[19]

--Descendall 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This should be worked into the article. I think the main reason it strikes some as tendentious is that there is little else about it in the article, so it just seems stuck in there.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

So add some of this to the article. As WP:V is clear, the burden is on the person who adds the material and I believe I was correct above in saying that blind-URL citations to restricted sites do not particularly inspire confidence. - Jmabel | Talk 09:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I was doing some research on World News Connection (a database of news articles translated into English) and I actually stumbled across two stories, excerpts of which are below:

Shining Path Leader Confirms Organization's Ties to Drug Trafficking
La Republica (Internet Version-WWW) in Spanish 24 Nov 03
Jaime Zuniga Cordova, "Dalton," central region political leader of Shining Path's Proseguir faction and captured by the Armed Forces on 6 November, confirmed the relationship between drug trafficking and the terrorist group as well as the new "friendly" strategy that Shining Path is using to recruit new members among the population.

The television program "Reportajes" broadcast a video showing the Shining Path leader being interviewed by his captors after his arrest following a shootout near San Bartolome, Santo Domingo de Acobamba District, in Concepcion Province, Junin.

According to Dalton's testimony, he was in charge of Shining Path's logistics in the central region -- located to the far right of the Ene River -- and, as such, he received protection money from drug traffickers who operate in the region as well as in other remote areas. In exchange, he provided them with protection or allowed them passage through the area under his control.

"They approached us voluntarily and they gave us money to let them pass," it was stated by Zuniga Cordova, who is also leader of the column that operated in Pangoa.
Officials Confirm Alliance Between Drug Rings, Shining Path in Coca Valley
Lima La Republica (Internet Version-WWW) in Spanish 09 Jul 03

The drug rings ("firms") known as "Boa," "Lagarta," and "Yuri" that operate in the coca-growing valleys of Ene and Apurimac pay "protection money" in US dollars to the Shining Path column led by Victor Quispe Palomino and Leonardo Huaman Zuniga, aka comrades "Jose" and "Alipio."

According to intelligence sources in the Anti-Drug Directorate of the Anti-Narcotics Police (Diropandro), the protection offered to drug traffickers by the terrorists has not only encouraged further cultivation of coca, but also the installation by the peasant farmers of laboratories to process cocaine base and washed paste aimed at increasing their profits.

The growth of drug trafficking in the zone, according to what La Republica has learned, is allowing "Jose" and "Alipio" to continue their terrorist activities. It was the column commanded by these two rebels that kidnapped 71 workers of the Argentine company Techint....

Police found the remains of the containers used by the "middlemen" for storing hydrochloric acid (from Brazil), an essential precursor for cocaine. A few meters away they also found other labs for the processing of raw cocaine paste and washed cocaine paste. It is precisely in San Martin de Pangoa and other disctricts of Satipo - together with Huanta and La Mar (Ayacucho) - in the coca-growing valley that three armed companies of the Shining Path's (SL) Main Regional Committee operate and carry out incursions under the command of "Alipio," who according to anti-terrorist intelligence reports, is allied to the region's drug traffickers. His colleague "Jose" was killed in a recent battle with the Army, which combs the coca-growing valley searching for SL columns....

Narcotics agents have confirmed to La Republica that there is an alliance between drug traffickers and the SL: "the firms operating in the coca-growing valley of Apurimac and Ene have contacts and links with the SL, which provides protection for those transporting drug shipments to the heights of Huanta or the San Antonio (Ayacucho) region.

"By this route they arrive at Chiquintirca, in the heights of the district of San Miguel (La Mar), where there are trails leading to Andahuaylas (Apurimac Department), and Huamanga via San Miguel and Tambo. They take advantage of this route by using mobile units," the agents said.

Perhaps those can be used. --Descendall 21:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review

I've been thinking about requesting that this article be peer reviewed. It would be nice to get this thing from a Good Article to a real A-Class article. Any thoughts? --Descendall 07:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Citation Needed

Why does the sentence "Shining Path's attacks were not limited to the countryside. It mounted attacks against the infrastructure in Lima, killing civilians in the process" need a citation? Source 13 (http://web.archive.org/web/20041114012731/http://www.solblanco.8m.com/ataq_tarata.htm) used to cite the last sentence in the paragraph, is pretty much proof that the Shining Path DID attack Lima and kill civilians. Unless somebody objects, I think the citation needed should be removed. Jaimeastorga2000 02:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No objections so far. I dunno what the average waiting time is on wiki, but I guess I will be bold and edit the article. If anyody has any objections, please go ahead and state them. ^.^ Jaimeastorga2000 06:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I interpereted the sentence to mean that civillians actually died in at least one of their electrical pylon bombings. I don't know if that's true or not. I haven't seen any specific sources that say so, but it certainly wouldn't be surprising if they killed a few people on of the hundreds of times they bombed those pylons. --Descendall 02:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Article is clearly biased

It refers to the Shining Path as terrorists repeatedly and sources the "U.S. State Department" as a reliable source despite the fact that all US government sources have strong anti-communist biases. Sections of this article need to be fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.174.121.248 (talk) 03:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

The only times that the article's own voice refers to Shining Path members as terrorists is when it mentions the hostage taking at the Techint facility. It uses the word "terrorists" twice. Does anyone think that this should be changed? As for the Department of State's Annual Report on Human Rights, does anyone really think that that's not a reliable source? --Descendall 03:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly a reliable source for the views of the U.S. government. - Jmabel | Talk 01:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Obviously. But is it a reliable source for things such as the number of people killed by Sendero in a given year? I'd think so. Intrestingly, the 2006 report came out just today. --Descendall 01:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it is a "reliable source" in the sense that it meets our standards to use it as a source, but one should not presume it to be entirely accurate, and if another "reliable source" contradicts it, we should report the disagreement. - Jmabel | Talk 17:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It's clear no one is arguing it isn't a reliable source, even if they don't like it. If another reliable source comes along contradicting it, we should deal with it then.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring of the article

This article should probably have a lot more about the origins, ideology, and structure of the Shining Path and a lot less about the actualy history of the war and the military response to the Shining Path. Abuses by the government could be transferred to Internal conflict in Peru. The origins, ideology, and structure of the group can be found at here. --72.75.108.135 07:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with this. We should have a section on their ideology (from Mariategui to "Gonzalo" and a section on the structure (Comite Central, Ejercito Guerrillero de Liberacion, Socorro Popular, etc.) --Descendall (talk) 01:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Rage Against the Machine

Perhaps it should be mentioned at the end somewhere that the video for the song 'Bombtrack' by rage against the machine is about the shining path and the incarceration of their leader Abimael Guzmán.

I'm not so sure that the song is about Sendero. The video is, but the song doesn't seem to be. In any event, that's a pretty minor fact to include in this article. --Descendall (talk) 01:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

New information available

There is some new good info available about Sendero here. --200.121.11.218 17:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Black Book of Communism, Courtois, Guzman quote

MIM has found profound errors in the Black Book of Communism,[20] and the editors have admitted mistakes. How can we trust this as a source.

Also, when (and if) Guzman said "the revolution will cost millions of lives" surely he is speaking of world revolution, and not just in Peru. the whole addition of Black Book citations is POV. --Mista-X 21:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring gets no where. Please refrain from it, and discuss on the talk page, lest the article be locked. In my opinion, the quote about the American and French civilians killed is fine, but the "million lives" bit is overkill - the brutality of SL has already been established. As for the use of the Black Book, what's the issue, really? The MIM is surely not any more reliable, and the mistake "admitted to" by the published listed on MIM website has nothing to do with the matter discussed in this article.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The chapter on Peru in the Black Book has only two sources, one is a short comment by Vargas Llosa and the other main source is Hertoghe & Labrousse. However, it doesn't in any way say when or in what context Guzman would have stated the passage on the one million, nor does it gives any specific reference to where in Hertoghe&Labrousse one would find a source for the claim. --Soman 21:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed it. As for line about the dead foreigners, I'm sure that can be corroborated independently, if you think the Black Book should not be used.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Now it is back in the article, and has a reference. The only thing is that it is a pretty junky reference. Some US Congressman arguing for increased antinarcotics aid to Peru. In the same argument he says that the Shining Path is trying to resurrect the Inca Empire, so the guy probably does not know what he is talking about. Almost all SL documents are on the blyth site linked in this article, so if Guzman really did say that a million Peruvians would have to die, and he probably did, all it would take is someone willing to skim through the SL webpage.

Make no mistake: If Sendero were to take power, we would see this century's third genocide. Luis Arce Borja, Sendero's representative in Europe, told a Lima newspaper last November that the current stage of the war--"strategic equilibrium"--will cost 1 million Peruvian lives. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_n12_v3/ai_12155087

Deus Ex

THere is a group in Deus Ex (fiction video game) called Luminous Path. Is this reference to Shining Path?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilkesalex (talk • contribs) 21:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Link check requested

I'm at a terminal now where I cannot access .com links. Would someone please have a look at this edit to see if the two added external links are appropriate? I suspect not. - Jmabel | Talk 23:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

User was spamming. Looks like it has been reverted.--Jersey Devil 01:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Totalitarianism

I suppose that the best way to decide if the Shining Path should be considered totalitarian is to go through the indiviual criteria

According to the totalitarianism wikiproject:

In the more common case that such a movement did not or has not yet come to power, it shall be called "totalitarian" if it meets five of the following six criteria:

1. exalting the nation, above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
2. stressing loyalty to a single leader/leading apparatus.
3. advocating severe economic and social regimentation.
4. advocating syndicalist corporatism OR using unethical business practices to work against Enterprises not owned by the State/Party
5. advocating totalitarian systems.
6. declaring itself or holding itself out to be to be a fascist, national socialist, totalitarian, rexist, etc. movement.

*exalting the nation, above the individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.

The Shining Path absolutely loathed indiviualism. It argued that a "blood quota" of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of lives would have to be sacrificed in order to establish the People's Republic of New Democracy. It further believed that humans have no innate rights at all, and the only rights that existed were the rights of the "people" and the dictatorship of the proletariat to eradicate all vestiages of the "old order."

*stressing loyalty to a single leader/leading apparatus.

The Shining Path's absolute worship of "Presidente Gonzalo" reached the point where he was refered to as Puka Inti, the Red God. The Shining Path accepted absolutely no criticism of Gonzalo.

*advocating severe economic and social regimentation.

The Shining Path closed even the smallest of markets in the countryside in order to absolutely uproot all forms of capitalism. If they took power, it seems likely that they would have established an almost Pol Potian regime in which all money was banned. The Shining Path also murdered people, often by stoning, for drinking alcohol, attending parties, being homosexual, and a whole bunch of other things that would qualify as "severe social regimentation"

*advocating syndicalist corporatism OR using unethical business practices to work against Enterprises not owned by the State/Party

The Shining Path went about 10 steps further and advocated placing all enterprises underneath the control of the state. As noted above, if it ever took power it may have even just abolished all enterprises.

*advocating totalitarian systems.

The Shining Path never pretended to be some sort of social democratic movement. It firmly stated that it would dynamite its way into power, kill everyone who opposed it, set up a dictatorship, spread the revolution to neighboring countries, and eventually lead the global revolution.

*declaring itself or holding itself out to be to be a fascist, national socialist, totalitarian, rexist, etc. movement.

The Shining Path never used any of these specific words, but it did declare itself to be a Maoist movement, and it saw itself as the only legitimate organization in all of Peru.

Keep in mind that the Shining Path only has to meet five of the criteria. I think it meets all six, but even if you disagree with one of my points, it still should be included. For that reason, I have restored the wikiproject box.

This is original research speculation. The term "totalitarianism" is used by political scientists to describe a type of regime, not speculation concerning the type of regime that would have been imposed by a movement that failed to gain state power. Futher, other political scientists even dispute the use of the concept for any regimes. The tag is inappropriate in an encyclopedia based on the principle of NPOV. Maglev Power (talk) 01:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what part is speculation. All of these things (that Sendero called itself Maoist, for example) can be documented easily. It is true that political scientists have a difficult time defining totalitarianism, but they have an even more difficult time defining democracy. Should wikipedia just ignore the existance of democracy as a result? Also, since when to talk pages have to be perfectly NPOV? I see you are taking the totalitarian tags off of every single article. Such a drastic move should not be done without consensus. --ElPeruano (talk) 01:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the wikiproject tag. By our own Wikipedia article on the subject totalitarianism "is state regulation of nearly every aspect of public and private behavior". The Senderistas never took power and established a state. Hence the term "totalitarian" is simply incorrect. --Jersey Devil (talk) 05:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The wikiproject lists six points that a group that hasn't come to power must meet to be a part of the totalitarianism project, as talked about above. Which of those do you think Sendero Luminoso doesn't meet? By the way, Maglev Power, the person who tooked all of the tags off of the articles, including this one, was blocked. for doing so. --ElPeruano (talk) 07:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

shining path is not PCP

On the lead paragraph says that the Peruvian Communist Party is Shining Path, this is not true, PCP-SL is one of PCP secessions through history. the commie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.42.190.189 (talk) 22:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The lead paragraph does not say that the Shining Path is the Peruvian Communist Party (Partido Comunista Peruano). It says that it is one of the organizations that calls itself the Communist Party of Peru (Partido Comunista del Perú). This is correct.

Naming issues redux

Because of the long history of revert wars concerning the name of this group, the lead paragraph consists almost entirely of an explaination of what to call the group. I think that the first paragraph would be better if it just summarized the rise and fall of the group as well as its ideology and structure. We could have another section called "name" or something like that. --Descendall (talk) 00:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, an Etymology section called would be useful. --Victor12 (talk) 01:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I still don't really like the first paragraph. I reproduce the paragraph below with my comments in bold:

The Communist Party of Peru (Spanish: Partido Comunista del Perú), more commonly known as the Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso), is a Maoist guerrilla organization in Peru that launched the internal conflict in Peru in 1980. Shouldn't it be the Maoist guerrilla organization in Peru that lanuched the internal conflict in 1980? Its stated goal is to replace Peruvian bourgeois institutions with a communist peasant revolutionary regime, Where did they state that? presumably passing first through the Maoist developmental stage of New Democracy. Well is it stated or is it presumed? They claimed to understand the reality of the Peruvian society. Now we are using the past tense. Also, where did they claim that? The Inca society, which was destroyed by the Spanish conquistadores, contained the pre-Conquest Inca Empire of Tawantinsuyo which, according to Mariátegui, contained a kind of primitive communist society. So what? The Shining Path stopped talking about Mariátegui early on in the game, and always rejected all that Tawantinsuyo mumbo-jumbo as a distracting from pure Maoism. The senderistas hoped that the future would combine revolutionary Marxism with the society of the Incas. I'd like to see a source on that. Like I said before, they hardly ever talked about the Incas. ‘A new path of arms’ was expected to lead Peru towards a transformed society that served its people. I'm not even sure what that means, and the quote is unreferenced. Since the capture of its leader Abimael Guzmán in 1992, it has only been sporadically active.[1] Shining Path's ideology and tactics have been influential on other Maoist insurgent groups, notably the Maoist Communist Party of Nepal and other Revolutionary Internationalist Movement-affiliated organizations.Is there any proof that the Nepalese Maoists have borrowed from the Shining Path?

I think that the whole paragraph might have to be re-written. --Descendall (talk) 09:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I still think that this must be re-written. --Descendall (talk) 04:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I just decided to be bold and change the thing myself, since no one else is likely to ever do so. --Descendall (talk) 05:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: On Hold

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "World History-Americas" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Here are the points that need to be addressed:

1. There are currently four statements with "citation needed" tags after them. These need to be addressed as GAs are not supposed to have these tags. The samge goes for addressing the tag in the "Origins" section which is not referenced at all.Y
2. Image:Pcpnovote.jpg, Image:ShiningPathFiveYears.jpg, and Image:Artemioandfriends.jpg needs a detailed fair use rationale.Y
3. "In several massacres, the military wiped out entire villages." This needs an inline citation.Y Statement removed
4. "The official ideology of Shining Path ceased to be Maoism (or "Marxism-Leninism-Mao Tse-tung thought"), and was instead referred to as "Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo thought."" If this is a quote by someone, it needs an inline citation.Y
5. "While Shining Path quickly seized control of large areas of Peru, it soon faced serious problems. Shining Path's Maoism was never popular. It never had the support of the majority of the Peruvian people, and quickly lost almost all sympathy that it once had." These may be seen as POV, and need to either be reworded or sourced to back up the information.Y
6. This isn't required for keeping its GA status, but the access dates for the websites should be updated, as some have not been accessed since 2006. Just update the access dates if the link is still active. If it is not, include "dead link" in the citation and/or try to find an alternate source.Y

Overall, the article was an interesting read and well-sourced (except for the few requested areas). I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed, one may be given. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with related WikiProjects. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 19:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your review, we'll get to working on the article ASAP. --Victor12 (talk) 19:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am a little concerned with the formalism of tagging the images of Shining Path posters. While it's true that they are tagged as fair use, they are also tagged as being "blocked property" in the United States, which they are. The US Treasury blocks the property of terrorist organizations and, unless the US elects a Maoist president, the Shining Path is likely to stay on the list of designated foriegn terrorist organizations for a very long time tp come (Keep in mind that the MRTA was on the list for something like ten years after it stopped existing). As a result, the images are more or less free. Also, one can deduce that the images will not be a problem for wikipedia by using plain old common sense: The Shining Path is a radical Maoist organization that favors the confiscation of all private property. It also murdered people for participation in the government. It's illegal for representatives of the Shining Path to enter the United States. On top of it all, the organization is virtually defunct. It is therefore extremely unlikely that the Shining Path is going to send some lawyer up to the US to sue wikipedia for copyright infringement in the American courts any time soon. --Descendall (talk) 20:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I think of this free user rationales as mere formalities as you say. I agree with your points about how unlikely its is that Wikipedia will get sued for this images. However it would not be accurate to tag this pics as Public Domain or something like that as they are "blocked property" in the US and who knows what in Peru. We would need definite legal proof that those images are free use otherwise they're fair use. So it seems to me tagging them as fair use is the simpler solution for this article. What do you think? --Victor12 (talk) 21:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The SL posters are already tagged with {{IEEPA sanctions}}, which seems good enough to me. I think that we could probably skip all the fair use stuff with {{IEEPA sanctions}} tags.

For the record, that tag reads as follows:

"The copyright in this image is believed to be held by a person, organization or state subject to U.S. sanctions under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA, 50 U.S.C. Chapter 35). As such, it is believed that the corresponding U.S. copyright is "blocked property". The image is used on English-language Wikipedia (hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation) as "information or an informational material" under the provisions of 50 U.S.C. § 1702(b)(3), and under the fair use provisions of U.S. copyright law. In particular, it is not possible to create or use an alternative work in the context of the article. Reuse of text or images in other circumstances may require a license under the IEEPA or under corresponding legislation outside the United States."

--Descendall (talk) 00:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that, as the tag says, "The image is used on English-language Wikipedia (...) under the provisions of 50 U.S.C. § 1702(b)(3), and under the fair use provisions of U.S. copyright law", so they are fair use images and thus, need fair use rationales, right? --Victor12 (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess. I don't really know. A quick trip to the Office of Foreign Assets Control's webpage shows that EJERCITO GUERRILLERO POPULAR (PEOPLE'S GUERRILLA ARMY); a.k.a. EGP; a.k.a. SENDERO LUMINOSO; a.k.a. SL; a.k.a. PARTIDO COMUNISTA DEL PERU EN EL SENDERO LUMINOSO DE JOSE CARLOS MARIATGUI (COMMUNIST PARTY OF PERU ON THE SHINING PATH OF JOSE CARLOS MARIATEGUI); a.k.a. PARTIDO COMUNISTA DEL PERU (COMMUNIST PARTY OF PERU); a.k.a. PCP; a.k.a. SOCORRO POPULAR DEL PERU (PEOPLE'S AID OF PERU); a.k.a. SPP; a.k.a. SHINING PATH; a.k.a. EJERCITO POPULAR DE LIBERACION (PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY); a.k.a. EPL is both a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization as well as a Specially Designated Global Terrorist. The Shining Path also appears on the Specially Designated Nationals List. While I don't know the exact wording of all the laws that created these lists, I'm pretty sure that the upshot is that we can use their posters without worrying about being sued. --Descendall (talk) 00:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems we need some outside help for this. --Victor12 (talk) 00:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

We certainly can use their posters without worrying about being sued, but the use would be on a fair use basis, not a public domain basis. - Jmabel | Talk 01:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Citing the "Origins" section

Nelson Manrique, Introducción al libro El tiempo del miedo. La violencia política en el Perú 1980-1996, available online should be useful for citing some of this; obviously, it's in Spanish. Also, Russell W. Switzer, Jr., "Sendero Luminoso and Peruvian Counterinsurgency", was submitted as a Masters' Thesis at LSU. A Master's Thesis is probably not considered a reliable source, but it looks well cited and may provide a lot of good ideas for what to cite. (Naturally, whoever is following up on this should dig up the original sources.) - Jmabel | Talk 01:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The Shining Path: A History of the Millenarian War in Peru by Gustavo Gorriti (ISBN 0807846767) is probably the best source of information on the Shining Path's early years at war (1980 to 1983 or so). --Descendall (talk) 02:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Citation Needed tags

I deleted one of the sentences that had been taged with "citation needed." The sentence said that at least 35 people were killed in an Ayacucho prison, and that this massacre was captured in the film People of the Shining Path. I have People of the Shining Path on my computer, and I can tell you that it is not a reliable source. It's basically Shining Path propaganda. The massacre that is being referred to is that which took place at Miguel Castro Castro prison. Note that Miguel Castro Castro Prison is in the San Juan de Lurigancho district of Lima, not Ayacucho. The "documentary" claims that up to 500 prisoners were killed. The real number, according to Human Rights Watch, was 39. [21] The whole thing is so unreliable that it needed to be deleted. --Descendall (talk) 03:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I deleted another one. The sentence in question said that the military committed several massacres that wiped out entire villages. This would seem to imply that the military went into villages and killed everyone, leaving no survivors at all. While I would not be surprised if this happened, I don't know of any source that would confirm it. Severeal villages did dissapear during the war, but I'd be willing to bet that in most of them there were survivors who simply fled to Lima. Even really, really bad massacres, like the one that took place in Accomarca, left survivors. There are now only two "citation needed" tags. --Descendall (talk) 09:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the tags is on "Shining Path's ideology and tactics have been influential on other Maoist insurgent groups, notably the Maoist Communist Party of Nepal and other Revolutionary Internationalist Movement-affiliated organizations." I'm not sure what would be needed here. Shining Path is a member of RIM; I believe it was a founding member, maybe the founding member, which should be possible to cite but I'm not sure from where. Communist Party of Nepal is a later RIM group, and is certainly notable among RIM groups, in that it has become a major power in its native country (probably the most successful of these groups). Revolutionary Internationalist Movement (RIM) on what believe is effectively the official site of the Communist Party of Nepal might be helpful; the problem is that it is hard to prove that the site really is what it claims to be.

The magazine A World to Win, loosely associated with RIM, may be useful if someone wants to do some research. Of possible interest are a statement from the PCP on the first anniversary of RIM. Anyway, someone should be able to piece together something citable indicating that PCP, RIM, and the Communist Party of Nepal are all closely associated, even if we cannot cite for the (clearly true) statement that is currently in the article. - Jmabel | Talk 19:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I'm not sure how we could prove that the "ideology and tactics" of the PCP have actually been been "influential" on on groups like the CPN(M). I think I remember seeing something where Prachanda distanced himself from the Shining Path. Simply belonging to the same organization doesn't prove that there is direct influence.

That being said, I see that Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) says that the memebers of CPN(M) "also draw inspiration from the ‘Revolutionary Internationalist Movement’ and Peru's left wing extremist guerrilla movement, the Sendero Luminoso (Shining Path)." Unfortunately it's not cited. --Descendall (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I now see that this has been mentioned on Talk:Prachanda, which has some interesting information on it, including an interview in which Prachanda expresses some pretty harsh criticism of the Shining Path. --Descendall (talk) 20:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

So maybe we need a weaker but more citable statement, one that indicates simply that both Sendero and the Communist Party of Nepal are associated with RIM, and indicates why we'd bother mentioning the Communist Party of Nepal (namely its level of success, in contrast to Sendero?). - Jmabel | Talk 21:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I can come up with a source for this, in literature on Nepali politics on the linkage between CPN(M), PCP and RIM in the 1990s. Influences on CPN(M) were notable in the 1990s, in strategy of guerrilla warfare (a completly new concept in the Nepalese left, the earlier Naxalite influence had a strategy of small-scale armed struggle) and the adoption of the name 'CPN(Maoist)'. More difficult will be to source later developments. --Soman (talk) 07:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC) "माओवाद र माओविचारवारे वहस चलिरहेकै वेला नेपालमा अर्को एउटा पदावली चर्चामा आएको छ - 'प्रचण्डपथ' । ने.क.पा (माओवादी)का दस्तावेजहरूले प्रचण्डपथलाई 'जनयुद्धका पाँच वर्षका महान उपलव्धि' भनेका छन् । पेरूको माओवादी पार्टी पे.क.पा (साइनिंग पाथ) का अध्यक्ष गोन्जालोको नाममा मार्क्सवाद-लेनिनवाद-माओवाद 'गोन्जालो विचार' जोड्ने प्रचलनकै अनुशरण गर्दै नेपालको माओवादी पार्टीले पनि मार्क्सवाद-लेनिनवाद-माओवाद र प्रचण्डपथ प्रयोग गरेको देखिन्छ (ने.क.पा (माओवादी) २०५७) । प्रचण्डपथ ने.क.पा (माओवादी)का अध्यक्ष प्रचण्डको नामसँग जुडेको छ ।" (Mahesh Maske, Maovichar, in Studies in Nepali History and Society, Vol 7 No 2, December 2002, p. 275)~. I'll go through this, and make a ref tag in the article. --Soman (talk) 07:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

---

Here is a translation of the above lines in Nepali

"While Maoism and the thoughts of Mao are being discussed, a new terminology has surfaced in Nepal called "Prachanda-ism". C.P.N (Maoist)'s documents state Prachandaism as 'the great achievement of 5 years of people's war'. Imitating Peru's Maoist party P.C.P (Shining Path)'s actions of adding President Gonzalo's name (in Communist "leaders" list) as Marxism-Leninism-Maoism 'Gonzalo-ism', Nepalese Maoist Party have started using Marxism-Leninism-Maoism and Prachandapath (C.P.N (Maoist) 2057). Prachanda path is related to C.P.N (Maoist)'s president Prachanda."

Thank you. --Eukesh (talk) 17:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

---

I have no idea what any of that says. I don't know a का from a पा, so you'll have to translate it if it's something about the CPN(M). --Descendall (talk) 07:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

"Although CPN(Maoist) models itself on the Shining Path movement and takes much inspiration from its Andean comrades, the Peruvian state under President Fujimori largely destroyed the Peruvian Maoists" --Soman (talk) 08:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Maoist leaders, too, accept that they are receiving international support for the cause of their war. "In the whole process of the final preparation (to declare `people's war') there was consistent international involvement. There was the Revolutionary International Movement (RIM) Committee and from the RIM Committee, we got the experience of the Peru Communist Party. We went to Bihar and Andhra Pradesh states of India and tried to understand the practical situation and practical problems of armed struggle there," said Comrade Prachanda, in his interview." --Soman (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Gonzalo Thought

Nehrams2020, in his fourth point, suggests that there may need to be a citation for "Marxism-Leninism-Mao Tse-tung thought" and "Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Gonzalo thought." I really don't think that there needs to be one. These are not personal quotes but rather the ideology of the Shining Path as expressed in its documents, communiques, graffiti, etc. Perhaps I can dig up a source that mentions that they did indeed change the phrasing of their ideology, but otherwise no citation is needed, in my opinion. --Descendall (talk) 06:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I added a citation to Gorriti because he specifically mentions the switch. --Descendall (talk) 08:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Under Fernando Belaúnde Terry

Probably good source to follow up for citation of the attitude of the regime of Fernando Belaúnde Terry: [22]. I leave it to someone else to follow this up (probably involving at least minor rewriting of the passage in question). Let me know if it doesn't contain what is needed; if someone can be more specific about what further citation might be needed for this, I'll do my best to track it down. - Jmabel | Talk 21:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Almost done?

It seems to me almost all of the issues raised at GA review have been dealt with. The only remaining problems that I can find are the citation needed tag in the intro and the reference to ABC news in footnote 63 which is incomplete and points to a dead link. For the first one we can use the source provided by Soman on this page. As for the second one it shouldn't be too difficult to replace, a link in Spanish should be easy to find although a link in English would be better. Any other stuff missing? --Victor12 (talk) 22:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, that's it. Soman should be able to provide some citations, as he knows all about Maoism in Nepal. I still think that this article needs "structure" and "ideology" sections, but I don't want to write them, and they're not needed to keep this thing a Good Article. --Descendall (talk) 02:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I swapped the ABC reference with an article from La República and introduced Soman's reference in the lead so I'd say all remaining points have been addressed now. --Victor12 (talk) 18:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

GAR: Kept

Good job on adding the fair use rationales, citations, and expanding the article. Keep up the good work, the article has really improved. At this time, I believe the article should keep its GA status since it meets the requirements of the GA criteria. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 08:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Truth and Reconciliation Commission

There are a couple graphs in the Final Report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that I was thinking about making into jpegs and putting into this article. I'm not sure how I would have to tag them. The final report says the following:

En virtud de lo dispuesto por las leyes 27806 y 27927, el presente Informe Final de la Comisión de la Verdad y Reconciliación es de carácter público y puede ser consultado por cualquier ciudadano o persona que lo requiera. Se autoriza la reproducción total o parcial de su contenido, siempre y cuando sea fiel al original y se cite adecuadamente la fuente: Comisión de la Verdad y Reconciliación. Informe Final. Lima: CVR, 2003.'

My rough translation is:

In accordance with what is set out in Laws 27806 and 27927, this Final Report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is of a public character and can be consulted by any citizen or person who needs to do so. Its total or partial reproduction is authorized when it is faithful to the original and adequately cites the source: Comisión de la Verdad y Reconciliación. Informe Final. Lima: CVR, 2003.

I don't know the first thing about copyright. What should a image be tagged as? --Descendall (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

What would be the purpose of these pics? Are you planning on using CVR material literally? --Victor12 (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There are some graphs that demonstrate the rise of SL violence as well as the dramatic decline in subversive activity that occured once Guzman was captured. Do you think it would be a bad idea to include that? --Descendall (talk) 02:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that seems like a good idea. I think you can avoid the copyright issue by redoing the graphs (in Excel, for instance) and quoting the CVR report as the source. There are a couple of tools to convert Excel content to Wikipedia format here. --Victor12 (talk) 02:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that there is a copyright. The report "es de carácter público" and "se autoriza la reproducción total o parcial de su contenido." --Descendall (talk) 05:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Theodore Dalrymple/FrontPage Magazine

For a long time, this article has included a quote by Theodore Dalrymple that appeared in FrontPage Magazine. The quote is about how terrible the Shining Path was. I have never been very comfortable with this quote. First, it adds nothing to the article, which already belabors the point that the Shining Path rejected the very idea of human rights and killed a whole lot of people. Second, it's not a particually good quote. Third, it makes the article look like it is really reaching for something to say against the Shining Path. There are all sorts of articles written by well-respected people and institutions that document the abuses committed by Sendero. The fact that we're using a quote that appeared on the webpage of communist-turned-ultra-right-winger David Horowitz kind of debases those other articles. I know that if I was ignorant of the Shining Path and I came to this webpage, I'd probably roll my eyes reading that Horowitz's webpage considers the Shining Path to have been terrorists. No shit - Horowitz considers just about everyone to be terrorists. The article about him on wikipedia mentions that he considers members of the Republican Party to have become "totally in bed with the Islamofascists and have turned against this country." Does anyone else think that this article would actually be improved by removing that quote? --Descendall (talk) 12:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes remove it. Such sources do nothing to help the article rather they hurt the credibility of the article because their source is extremely biased.--Jersey Devil (talk) 12:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it should be removed. --Victor12 (talk) 15:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed something that is kind of funny. While the Dalrymple quote on this page is "nothing prepared me for what I saw in Ayacucho, where Sendero first developed under the sway of a professor of philosophy, Abimael Guzman," a quote on the article about him reads "nothing had quite prepared me for the level of extreme violence in personal relationships that I encountered in a country that was enjoying sustained economic growth and unprecedented prosperity." Apparently, this guy is chonically under-prepared. --Descendall (talk) 20:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I deleted it. --Descendall (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Descendall, I just noticed your comments here from a few days ago. Well put on all counts. - Jmabel | Talk 06:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Status

Is there still anything in particular to be done here in the wake of the "good article review"? - Jmabel | Talk 06:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The article should undergo peer review and maybe be made an A-class article, although I am not sure of the difference between an A-class and a GA-class article on English wikipedia. --ElPeruano (talk) 06:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

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