Talk:Sociopathy

Comment title

People, just because it makes a little bit of sense doesn't mean its not vandalism. If a line contradicts the article (for example, by saying that sociopathy is a "loosely defined term" and then vividly defining it) it probably doesn't belong. --67.172.13.176 (talk) 07:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Revert March 23, 2008

I reverted the page to an earlier version because 1) this is supposed to be a disambiguation page, so a long list of supposed sociopathic characteristics is unnecessary, and 2) the information was unsourced and questionable. (I just felt that this reason was too long to include in the edit summary.) Imaginaryoctopus^(talk) 22:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Surprised

That there's no real article here. Enigma^msg 07:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems more like a disambig page.WackoJacko (talk) 16:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Redirect to Antisocial personality disorder?

Any thoughts on changing this back to a redirect to Antisocial personality disorder? It's a very close fit and they are used as synonyms. Sociopathic personality disorder and Sociopath already redirect there. If there's a consensus, or at least no objection, I'll change it it a week or so. Thank you. SchreiberBike (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

• WP:TWODABS would certainly support such a change. It is no more inconvenient for readers to come to an article and be directed to the lone other possibility by a hatnote than to be taken to a disambiguation page having only two options. bd2412 T 19:18, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about this, as sociopathy and Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) are not strictly synonymous, and sociopathy can also be used to refer to psychopathy or dissocial personality disorder (DPD), which are all distinct despite sharing some characteristics. So, strictly speaking, sociopathy could refer to at least three topics (as currently noted: ASPD, psychopathy, and DPD). However, DPD redirects to ASPD at this time. I'm not sure why that is; I suppose that partly it's perceived that ASPD and DPD are similar enough to the extent that a subsection on DPD within the ASPD article seems to fit the bill for the time being, although strictly speaking it would appear that they are technically distinct. --Xagg (talk) 21:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm understanding that the differences are technical and narrow. The antisocial personality disorder article has more information about those differences than any other source I can find on Wikipedia, so it still seems to be the best place for anyone looking up sociopathy or dissocial personality disorder to go. I've asked for help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Psychology. They may have some useful input. Thanks. SchreiberBike (talk) 00:17, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I think 'psychopath' and 'sociopath' are old terms and the 'antisocial personality disorder' is a new term. Personally I think the reason is the two older terms became very criminally negative they became redundant to describe a psychological disorder scientifically. Also, if you want to move this article, how about the psychopath one? -- RexRowan  Talk  16:51, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

All three terms are apparently different. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspd#Psychopathy_and_sociopathy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath#Psychopathy_vs._sociopathy

But since there isn't much specifically on sociopathy yet, I suppose that it makes sense to redirect 'sociopathy' to the ASPD article which has a nugget on it. Note that 'sociopath' has already redirected there for a very long time. Xagg (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

To get the reader to what seems to be the best definition of sociopathy, we could make Sociopathy redirect to Antisocial personality disorder#Psychopathy and sociopathy. Does that seem like a good idea? Thanks, SchreiberBike (talk) 05:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense, as it redirects to the specific area discussing sociopathy. If that's done then it might also make sense to do the same for 'sociopath' (i.e. without the 'y'). --Xagg (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I've made the change at Sociopathy and have requested a change at Sociopath, which is presently edit protected. We'll see if it sticks. Thanks, SchreiberBike (talk) 03:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand why it's redirecting to ASPD instead of Psychopathy. As both articles make clear, ASPD and Sociopathy/Psychopathy are two different things. "Sociopathy" is just a politically correct synonym for psychopathy used by people who don't like the media and pop cultural connotations that come with the original term. CarolinianJeff (talk) 22:57, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree that in common usage they refer to the same thing, i.e. psychopathy rather than ASPD. Hare notes some of the reasons that the term "sociopathy" may be preferred to "psychopathy" or vice versa, but the conclusion is that they refer to the same disorder, one that he also notes is distinct from ASPD. Straight from the horse's mouth (see p.23+ here):

"Many researchers, clinicians, and writers use the terms psychopath and sociopath interchangeably. ... However, sometimes the term sociopathy is used because it is less likely than is psychopathy to be confused with psychoticism or insanity. ... In many cases the choice of term reflects the user's views on the origins and determinants of the clinical syndrome or disorder described in this book. Thus, some clinicians and researchers — as well as most sociologists and criminologists — who believe that the syndrome is forged entirely by social forces and early experiences prefer the term sociopath, whereas those — including this writer — who feel that psychological, biological, and genetic factors also contribute to development of the syndrome generally use the term psychopath. The same individual therefore could be diagnosed as a sociopath by one expert and as a psychopath by another."

With regards to the redirections, I think that the general consensus is that psychopathy as a condition is not as established as ASPD, possibly one reason why the Wiki bosses have redirected it to the latter. --Xagg (talk) 17:16, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Building consensus: maintain as a disambiguation page?

There is no consensus on the definition of "sociopathy". In her book "The Sociopath Next Door", Dr Martha Stout introduces the topic with an explanation that her choice to use the word "sociopath" was at her discretion, and that she was using it to refer to the same condition that Dr Robert Hare refers to as psychopathy. Both researchers consider the clinical definition of psychopathy to have a far narrower scope than the broader definition of antisocial personality disorder. Psychopathy is generally considered to be a congenital neurobiological disorder, with no known treatment or cure, whereas there is some debate about various environmental causes that might be involved in people who meet the diagnostic criteria for ASPD but who do not meet the stricter criteria for psychopathy.

There are many reasons for the introduction of the newer term "sociopathy". The word "psychopathy" evokes the colloquialism "psycho" and conjures images of someone who is criminally insane, rather than a person who is devoid of empathy. As in the case of Stout's writings, the prefix "socio" can be used to correct this misperception about psychopathy, by instead highlighting the interpersonal destructiveness that is characteristic of psychopaths. However, the prefix "socio" can also be interpreted to mean that there may be "social" or environmental causes for the condition, which is not the case with psychopathy.

Given the level of confusion and disagreement over the meaning of the term "sociopathy", at this point, the page should not redirect to either article. It should remain a disambiguation page. The same ought to be done for Sociopath, which should to redirect to the dab page for Sociopathy. C-PTSD (talk) 00:17, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I will add that Sociopathy was stable as a disambiguation page for at least a year, from late 2011 until late 2012, during which time the only major edits were a few attempts to add a short paragraph defining the term (reverted by others because that content does not belong on a disambiguation page), and some disagreement over whether Dissocial personality disorder should be included in the disambiguation list. In the absence of a consensus for redirecting Sociopathy either to Psychopathy or to Antisocial personality disorder, I think Sociopathy should be maintained as a disambiguation page at this time. C-PTSD (talk) 18:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

What about the possibility of changing the Sociopathy page to an article about the meaning of the word sociopathy, sociopath, sociopathic, etc? This article should have links high in the first paragraph to the Antisocial personality disorder and Psychopathy pages. The discussion above appears to me to have the material for an article in it.

I keep coming back to the question of what will be most helpful for the reader searching for sociopathy or clicking on an blue link for sociopathy. It seems most likely to me that people will have heard someone described as a sociopath and will want to know more about what kind of a person they are. They should know that the usage varies among professionals and among the public, but that generally a person so described has the following characteristics . . . and that antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy are the labels professionals use for people described as sociopaths. I hope this idea helps. SchreiberBike (talk) 18:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, SchreiberBike. This idea is interesting, but my concern is that creating an article specifically about the meaning of the word sociopath would go against WP:DICDEF. I am uncertain whether there is enough material available on the topic of sociopathy that such an article would both 1) be substantially different from the content of Psychopathy or Antisocial personality disorder and 2) be substantial enough in size and scope to be its own, separate article.

Indeed, it appears that there have been a handful of such efforts in the past (to define the term in more detail, and expand Sociopathy from a dab page to an article). However, looking back, each time this was done, the editor wrote merely a paragraph or two of opinion, unsourced (and in each case, these changes were quickly reverted by other editors). Due to the unclear nature of the term itself, I feel any such material should be thoroughly sourced. Did you have any sources in mind for the creation of a Sociopathy article?

In the absence of such an effort, do you feel it would be acceptable to maintain Sociopathy (and Sociopath, etc) as a simple disambiguation page? Thanks again for your input. C-PTSD (talk) 16:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Your point about WP:DICDEF is good; I suppose that is what I was proposing. My only problem with leaving Sociopathy as a disambiguation page is that it's not disambiguable. I came to the word through Sociopathy showing up on the list at Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links, based on the idea that no articles should link to a disambiguation page. I didn't have any basis on which to change articles' links to either Psychopathy or Antisocial personality disorder. I see that Sociopathy still has links from a good number of articles. The people clicking on the blue links in those articles aren't being taken to a helpful place, except to try either of Psychopathy or Antisocial personality disorder. It could almost be a list article (List of diagnoses called sociopathy), but that doesn't really make sense. I'm not coming up with any other ideas though. I'll keep thinking. SchreiberBike (talk) 17:08, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed to maintain as a disambiguation page.

After some brief thought and re-analysis of Hare's publication above, I'll have to retract my previous assertion that the authoritative consensus is that sociopathy = psychopathy, and revert to my former opinion, that they're distinct (although sometimes, as Hare notes, they are used to refer to the same condition). Usage of the term sociopathy is definitely multi-faceted and the term does not strictly refer to any particular, medically-identifiable disorder. Although sometimes it is used as a synonym for specific conditions or personality constructs (such as psychopathy, or less often, antisocial personality disorder or dpd), seemingly more often than not it is simply used as a sort of de facto descriptor for any condition or personality construct encompassing a combination of characteristics that tend to overlap significantly with diagnostic criteria of particular personality disorders such as psychopathy, aspd, or dpd.

So it could refer to at least 4 different things, with the first being most likely:

In common usage, sociopathy refers to conditions similar to or synonymous with the following personality disorders:

• psychopathy
• antisocial personality disorder
• dissocial personality disorder

If it were a disambiguation page, I think it might work fine something like that. The first sentence, instead of being a strict definition, acts more like 'a short description of the common general meaning of a word [that] can be appropriate for helping the reader determine context', with further support for the reader being the links to the specific personality disorders that 'sociopathy' may reflect or sometimes act as a synonym for.

It's also worth reiterating a point made by C-PTSD, that 'sociopathy' has previously been stable as a disambiguation page for at least a year, so it doesn't seem like a very contradictory treatment of the term.

As for all of those articles that link to 'sociopathy'/etc. as a disambiguation page, my guess is that the redirections should either (a) be removed if they don't refer to any specific subject that currently has its own non-disambiguation article, or (b) redirect to one of the specific personality disorders if it is determinable that such is the particular usage of 'sociopathy'/etc. in that context.

--Xagg (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

I went about fixing the incoming links, and it turns out that Antisocial personality disorder was the most informative target for every single one of them. bd2412 T 03:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your effort, BD2412, but think this move was too WP:BOLD, and that unfortunately it actually worsened the situation. You replaced nearly all of the links to sociopathic (and similar words) with Easter eggs that link to Antisocial personality disorder. This is problematic for several reasons (which I'll relate below). What's worse, though, is that you didn't label your edits specifically: they're all labeled "minor fixes, mostly disambig links using AWB", so it's impossible to see from your edit history which of your edits were related to this issue. The edits were performed over several days, and they appear to be mixed in with other edits, which makes it even more confusing and difficult to reverse.

As is evident from the many detailed discussions on this page, there is no clear, widely-agreed-upon definition of what "sociopathy" actually means. It is used at least as often to refer to psychopathy as it is to antisocial personality disorder, and those two terms have significant differences in meaning. You will find people on both sides arguing strongly in favor of one definition over the other. I do not think it was appropriate to respond to this inconsistency in usage by piping nearly all of the links to antisocial personality disorder.

This editing decision is even more questionable when you consider that that there has been very recent discussion here and at Talk:Sociopath about broadening Sociopath into a broad-concept article per WP:CONCEPTDAB. Did you not see these discussions? For the incoming links to link to such an article (which would explain the inconsistency in usage) would be far more helpful than simply preferentially directing them to one definition over the other. Readers should be made aware of the disagreeement in usage, not just blindly funneled to one of the two terms.

Clearly, there was no agreement here that sociopathy in general refers to antisocial personality disorder. Indeed, the most recent editing consensus centered around restoring Sociopathy as a disambiguation page, and not having it redirect to Antisocial personality disorder. I understand that you likely wanted to direct readers to the most informative space, but readers need to be informed of the differences in usage, not just one usage over the other. As such, I would like to ask you to go back and reverse your changes so that we can continue working on this issue. Thank you. C-PTSD (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this further, and, to sum up, I think my goals here are to help readers understand the term sociopathy, to inform readers about the usages and their meanings, and to give the people the information they would need to pursue further reading on related topics. I do not feel redirecting instances of sociopathy and similar words to one particular definition is necessarily the best way to accomplish the goal of informing the reader. In this case, I am specifically concerned about failing to inform the reader about psychopathy, an important topic in its own right, with a great deal of research dedicated to its study.

I am not entirely sure of the best solution for the Sociopathy article space (and related spaces), but I'm interested to explore all options. I don't think having a ton of redirects go to a simple dab page is ideal, and it would be good to look for other solutions. At the same time, I think it would be best to leave options open while we work on this, instead of prematurely closing them off. I do feel a little frustrated that a large set of redirects were done without discussion, and I'd like to ensure we create consensus before further changes are made. Feedback is welcome. C-PTSD (talk) 19:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If an article is written that encompasses the differences at issue, I'll gladly find the links and point them there instead. However, I will not restore disambiguation links, since those are inherently erroneous, and since the disambiguation page itself gives even less information about the possible meanings of the term than the current target. bd2412 T 22:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

It's indeed worthwhile to consider transforming 'sociopathy' into a broad-concept article, partly because establishing the final structure of the article first might spare some link reworking, but also because the nature of the concept may warrant it. --Xagg (talk) 14:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The term Antisocial personality disorder is clearly defined by the current version of DSM

and has been in continuous usage since DSM 3 in 1980.

It is a clearly defined and widely used term. Sociopath and psychopath are old words that were displaced by the term Antisocial personality disorder.

The last ten years a couple of authors writing popular books about composite characters have tried to revive the terms sociopath and psychopath and give them slightly different meanings than Antisocial personality disorder.

None of these books reference DSM or scientific papers.

Their writing, in my opinion, is sloppy and unscientific. Until someone can give a consistent and scientific meaning to the words sociopath and psychopath, I consider their use unhelpful.

69.239.134.100 (talk) 02:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

• I think it should Redirect to Psychopathy which should lead it as alternative term. I created an article George E. Partridge which I think helps indicate that the term is most related historically and semantically to psychopathy. Both psychopathy and sociopathy can if wished be considered rough synonyms for Antisocial (Dissocial) Personality Disorder but equally they both have narrower meanings which are most often interchangeable (and less officially diagnostically endorsed) as several others have noted above. Sighola2 (talk) 01:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

To put this point another way: Can anyone defend a basis for Wikipedia disambiguating sociopathy but not psychopathy to the DSM diagnosis of AntiSocial Personality Disorder? The DSM itself states that ASPD has been called either sociopathy or psychopathy, so there is no basis there; in fact if anything the DSM-V now links itself more to the term psychopathy, as a speculative subtype included for further research. And historically, as the Partridge article now indicates, sociopathy as such has never really been a diagnosis in the DSM. Antisocial/dissocial personality subtypes were listed in the first edition under the category of 'Sociopathic personality disturbance' - so were sexual disorders (then including homosexuality) and drug (including alcohol) addiction (do we disambiguate sociopathy to those too??) - but already by 1968 second edition antisocial was listed under personality disorders (and dissocial was downgraded to a social maladjustment). Sighola2 (talk) 03:07, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that it should be maintained a disambiguation page; I strongly agree that sociopathy should redirect to psychopathy based on reasons above, especially an important one that Sighola2 cited - the term sociopathy is by far most associated historically and semantically with psychopathy. ASPD is a diagnosis that was developed to a certain extent around the concept of psychopathy/sociopathy, but notable critics disagree that they are equivalent, and perhaps more importantly, sociopathy isn't really used to refer to that specific diagnosis - whereas sociopathy is widely used to refer to the much broader concept of psychopathy although perhaps sometimes with slightly different connotations. Feel free to look at the Psychopathy and History of psychopathy articles for further explanation.

If psychopathy is the primary topic, then it is sufficient to redirect to that topic. It's not worth developing sociopathy as a separate article since the limited amount of cite-able material on it already seems sufficiently covered in the Psychopathy and History of psychopathy articles. Also, since ASPD is already extensively covered in the Psychopathy article (e.g. in the lead, in its own section with a link to the main ASPD article, etc.), and it was probably unnecessary as a disambiguation link in the first place, a hatnote isn't needed. It seems appropriate to redirect it to the Sociopathy section of that article so that readers are immediately presented with an explanation of the terminology.

Due to these reasons and no consensus for maintaining it as a disambiguation page, plus long-standing low involvement in the development of this page, I will apply this redirection now; please feel free to revert and rebut if you think there's an issue with this. For whatever reason, sociopath is still edit-protected and has only been editable by admins since February 2009; might also want to look at that. --Humorideas (talk) 03:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Developing a broad-concept article

Per this suggestion and following from the discussion above.
Sociopathy already fits some of the main prerequisites for a broad-concept article: it is indeed a broad concept, and a substantial portion of the links asserted to be ambiguous are examples of that concept (i.e. antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy, and dissocial personality disorder).
However, it's still necessary to ascertain that the concept is 'capable of being described in an article' and then to actually create 'an article describing the broad concept'. Such an article could refer to any reliable sources on sociopathy per se, and perhaps note traits shared among the example conditions.
--Xagg (talk) 13:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I think this is the correct way forward. Sociopath has a broad cultural meaning and usage outside the US psychiatrist's definition of an antisocial personality disorder. --BozMo talk 06:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

This page is useless.

It has no information. The linked pages are a wall of meaningless gargage. There needs to be an information page here, not links to other pages containing nothing but meaningless garbage.

Presumably, at one point, there was a 'Sociopath' article. It need to be put back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.156.190 (talk) 22:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I was surprised when I didn't see a Sociopathy article either. But while some experts in the field of psychology distinguish between sociopathy and psychopathy, it seems that a lot more experts in the field of psychology consider them to be essentially the same thing. And looking through the edit history of this page, it's never been an article (for along anyway); it's always been either a redirect or a disambiguation page. Flyer22 (talk) 23:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Antisocial / Dissocial

As of this writing, there is no distinction between Antisocial Personality Disorder, and, Dissocial Personality Disorder. There might not be a difference, according to the leading organization, the APA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psychiatric_Association).

If they're the same, then there's a double entry. If they're different, then somebody seems to have merged two different articles along the line. I'm not wiki-affluent enough to tell the difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.85.198.188 (talk) 06:23, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Clarifying sociopathy, psychopathy, antisocial personality disorder, dissocial personality disorder

Based on various sources, including the DSM, ICD, and page 61 at http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OuNdrmHcJlgC:

ASPD vs. DPD: may be similar but are technically different. ASPD is defined by the DSM, DPD by the ICD, and there are some differences in the criteria.

ASPD vs. Psychopathy: the DSM based ASPD on psychopathy and the DSM-IV states that ASPD is also known as psychopathy, although notable critics argue that they are different.

Psychopathy vs. DPD: are technically different as a result of the above.

Sociopathy: is used as an informal term to describe any condition that is conceptually similar to or synonymous with any of the above.

I updated these articles to clarify the relationship between psychopathy, ASPD, and DPD. Sociopathy, as far as I'm aware, is not a formal term and is thus not mentioned much in these articles. --Humorideas (talk) 03:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The above comment has been cross-posted on psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder. Not sure what looked at but in fact the ICD-10 online Dissocial PD lists Sociopathy as another term in exactly the same way as Psychopathy (and various others such as Amoral). The DSM-IV-TR does too for Antisocial PD: "This pattern has also been referred to as psychopathy, sociopathy, or dyssocial personality disorder." NOTE: that wording is NOT the same as the DSM saying that psychopathy is the DSM's own other name for ASPD (and in fact in early DSM it was referred to as sociopathic).

Also it's not quite a question of 'critics' arguing the official criteria are different to (some essentialist concept of) psychopathy, it's acknowledged fact they are different to the criteria of Cleckley or Hare.

Finally I've found a partial online source on the new DSM-5, The Pocket Guide to the DSM-5 Diagnostic Exam, cf Pg 236 "Antisocial (Dissocial) Personality Disorder" which has an optional 'specifier' for "psychopathic features". But I don't know what the actual full text says in terms of synonyms. Sighola2 (talk) 00:35, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Continued discussion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychopathy#Clarifying_psychopathy.2C_antisocial_personality_disorder.2C_dissocial_personality_disorder.2C_sociopathy --Humorideas (talk) 00:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 February 2015

Please change *Antisocial personality disorder to *Antisocial personality disorder because it is a quite recent article linking sociopathy and ASPD referring to all those "elite" psychiatric journals too.

66.248.187.67 (talk) 08:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 13:29, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• How? And where?--69.50.69.30 (talk) 21:06, 12 February 2015 (UTC)